MiLB Pitcher Pitching 80-82

Eddie Gaedel played MLB and he was just over 3ft tall. Jim Abbott pitched MLB with only one hand and you say you know of a pitcher in AA that can only throw 80-82 mph. I think all three deserve recognition for their accomplishments but I really don’t think any of these three examples will change the way D-1 coaches recruit their players.
Fungo

I understand that but why dont colleges recruit based on how good...not how fast you throw

They do recruit you on how good you are. It just happens that velocity is part of being good. Yes you can be good at 85 but if you can do the same thing at 90 you become better and if you can do the same at 95+ you become a legend. Understand too that for the most part velocity cannot be taught while "pitching" can be taught. In other words if you take a pitcher that can hit his spots at 80 there's not much you can do to improve him. However if you find a pitcher that hasn't mastered his pitches and his control --- but has the gift to throw 95 --- you have a lot to work with and a good pitching coach can likely develop him into a very good pitcher.
Fungo

Outs baby show me outs...

Thank you for letting me know

Here's the deal. Fungo is correct in that velocity is a very important part of pitching. Turn on the TV and you see few not throwing 90. The hard throwers have to prove they can't play, while the soft throwers have to prove they can.

I just posted that RJ Swindle was just called up to the Phillies. He throws 80-82. They say he maxes at 85 but that isn't what the guys whp played with him say.
D1s don't just look at radar guns. My son threw 82-83 and he had lots of interest from coaches at the D1 level and zd1 Juco plus offers. They didn't even see him play except on video.
The U of Miami was one of the D1s
If you watch MLB you can see the speeds recorded and many throw mid 80s and ocassionally run up to 90. Most care about seeing you pitch as opposed to just running it up there. Bothy types have their benefits to any BB club. .

quote:

Most care about seeing you pitch as opposed to just running it up there.

True. But we're not talking about someone having ONLY velocity or JUST “running it up there”. The perception that a pitcher that has good velocity (no matter what other pitching skills he has) somehow makes him less of a “pitcher” that a “slow” pitcher with good command and control. That misconception is constantly being perpetuated by those wanting to lessen the importance velocity plays in effective pitching at the higher levels. I don't know of any coach that wants a pitcher that can JUST throw hard. However I have heard D-1 coaches say they want a pitcher that has a fastball at least in mid to high 80's. That rules out many “good” pitchers that are D-1 hopefuls but fall short of the velocity benchmark they have established. That raises the hackles of many pitchers and parents of pitchers. My son too was looked at by many D-1 colleges and pro scouts as a pitcher. Not what he wanted to do ---- but there was no doubt in my mind that his mid 90's fastball sparked that interest. But I knew, he knew, and they knew, he wasn't a complete pitcher but maybe those that recruited him thought he could be. While he pitched his sophomore year at the D-1 level, he lacked pitching tools ---- just like a pitcher with an 80 mph fastball. Are there exceptions where pitchers succeed in spite of some of these coaches’ benchmarks of velocity and control? You bet there are --- just as there are in just about every baseball "story". I too have seen fireballers with little control come in to close a game and strike out the side while throwing few strikes over the plate. Effective pitchers! I have also seen "soft tossers" baffle and frustrate batters that appear to have lost their discipline and composure when they stepped into the batter's box. Again effective pitchers! Just by watching the CWS and watching velocity AND control impact the outcome of some very tight games, you soon realize D-1 coaches do a tremendous job in recruiting pitchers.
Fungo

Having a 90+ FB gives a pitcher a definite advantage in recruiting. Coaches believe they can teach control but not velocity. I believe a good coach can do both.
Soft tossers have their roles and I have seen them at top D1s My son's 1st game was against Florida State and the announcer referred to a coiple of their pitchers as soft tossers throwing low 80s. They called several radar readings and they were in the low 80s with CBs in the high 60s

Projectability matters as well. A high school sophomore or junior throwing low 80's is still very attractive to D1's if he shows progress (speedwise) over the past couple seasons and has a projectable body type (i.e., usually tall and lanky).

BobbleheadDoll makes an excellent point. Throwing in the low to mid 80s is effective if you have other pitches and a wide variation between speeds. At the end of the day, it is about getting people out.

That said - velocity will always be sexier. The baseball centerfold is always 6'5", runs like a deer and throws 90+ mph. But there are only so many of those guys.

I watched Mussina today for a few innings against the Red Sox. He lived between 79-82 mph. He ran a few up to high 80s and they were his least effective pitches. He dominated for 6 innings with low 80s pitches. I didn't see the end but I understand he lost a 2-1 game in the ninth.
There are MLB pitchers who do not throw 90+ and yes a guy who can throw hard has the interest of scouts.
I have seen scouts at camps who gravitae to those guys even when they don't pitch well.

No, Mussina got the W today, Rivera made it interesting but rallied to escape.

His fastball was upper 80's, the low 80's stuff is his other stuff. And he's got stuff in the 70's, too.

Thanks Midlo I had to work on the pool today and couldn't watch the end.

Mussina is 40, what did he throw when he was 20 at Stanford?

Before shoulder issues, in his younger days, Mussina threw 86-90 4 seam fB along with 2 seam,splitter, slider,changeup, curve and knuckle curve.

You can't compare a MLB pitcher's experience of 20+years with that arsenal to a much young pitcher throwing 80-82.

I just did.
There are lots of 40+ pitchers who throw 90s.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I watched Mussina today for a few innings against the Red Sox. He lived between 79-82 mph. He ran a few up to high 80s and they were his least effective pitches. He dominated for 6 innings with low 80s pitches. I didn't see the end but I understand he lost a 2-1 game in the ninth.
There are MLB pitchers who do not throw 90+ and yes a guy who can throw hard has the interest of scouts.
I have seen scouts at camps who gravitae to those guys even when they don't pitch well.

Mussina did throw some pitches 90 today.

Mussina's velocity is up this year. He was 84-86 last year and got knocked around badly. The yankee announcers commented he was a notorious non-conditioner and that would need to change if he was to keep playing. I guess he got in shape. He gets by hitting spots better this year.

One thing you never want to do is listen to color commentators.

The 3 innings I watched he hit 88 and was dominating. He had only thrown a half dozzen over 82. Regardless it shows that you can be dominant in the low 80s.
All pitchers get kncked around at some point. I just know from being around MiLB for years thyat there are very successfull soft tossers. Some make it and many don't.

quote:

Regardless it shows that you can be dominant in the low 80s.

We all agree a pro pitcher can be successful in the low 80's. It is remarkable because it happens so rarely, imo.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I watched Mussina today for a few innings against the Red Sox. He lived between 79-82 mph. He ran a few up to high 80s and they were his least effective pitches. He dominated for 6 innings with low 80s pitches.

This was your original statment regarding Mussina.
Now you state you watched him pitch and he ran it up to 88 and was dominating and you only watched 3 innings.

No one claims that low 80's pitchers can't dominate. I think it's very much understood by all that to receive attention with low velo you have to know how to pitch and have a huge arsenal.

You got to get your facts straight.

FWIW, I have been following FSU baseball for 3 years and sat at about live 15 games, never once did I see a pitcher throw 60's, never. You stated you knew this by listening to what was stated by announcers, now you just told Dad04 not to listen to what commentators say.

You are very confusing.

TPM as usual you come looking for trouble.

You as I have stated have a problem with the English language amoung other things.

I said he threw a half dozzen pitches over 82 mph and they were either out of the strike zone or nailed. He seemed to struggle with his pitches that he ran up in the high 8os.

I don't listen to color commentators who theorize and make up stuff to theorize on BB. I do give them credit for being able to relate radar gun readings.

Another brain teaser for an idiot.

Greg Maddux, Jamie Moyer................neither would even get a look these days. Not the prototype build or velocity Experience, location, movement, change of speeds, undue respect from the umps (and big, big bucks). Both get it done, and I'd take either one.

Maddux was pitching 90's out of HS.

Why did he lose velocity?

plash
they got old on us.

bobble
it is my belief, and only a belief.that 90 gets you signed, then performance takes over. there are exeptions,but not as many as pitchers in the 90's.or i should say pitchers that have thrown 90.

There is a much larger margin for error with a guy throwing mid 90's. Most MLB guys start out as hard throwers and then those who learn the art of pitching survive while others have shorter careers. It's the rare pitcher who masters the art well enough, young enough, to make it to MLB without a quality fastball in the first place.

Most of the guys you see in MLB throwing soft were once harder throwers. Maddux and Glavine were 90+ in their youth. As pitchers age, very few have the moxie to get batters out as their stuff fades. But that is what distinguishes Maddux and Glavine as Hall of Famers.

In Glavine's case, I believe he is capable of still throwing 85-86, but he found that that is considered FAT by hitters. He couldn't dial it up higher any more, so he went DOWN instead. His ERA still got up well above 4 before his elbow started giving him trouble, but lots of teams would like to have a guy with a sub-5 ERA right now.

Part of what makes these guys effective is that they mess with batters' timing. The fact that they are few and far between is a large part of why it works for them. If everyone threw in the low 80's, today's MLB hitters would feast on them all.

Heck, even in our area high school play, if you're throwing 80-85, it'd better be in good spots with good movement and backed up with at least one solid offspeed pitch, or you're meat.

We'd all like to believe that just anyone can make it in MLB if they just work hard enough. Sorry, it ain't so. Most of them do work their tails off, but they combine that with the advantage of starting out as gifted athletes.

I know a guy who records novelty songs, and one of them is titled, "Somebody Else Got to Be Jimmy Buffet". As you might guess, it's a loser's lament -- I get drunk a lot, I like the beach, I'm pudgy, balding and I can't sing, so why can't I be a star? Well, maybe there's only room for the one. When everyone starts doing it, it doesn't work very well.

quote:

Originally posted by plash3:
Why did he lose velocity?

I think Midlo Dad gave a good explanation. I think they all had high velo and as they got older they reinvented themselves. SI article stated that Glavine did it with more use of the CB.

A few years ago I read an article where he once told someone about relying on mathmatical odds (used in betting) in throwing pitches taught by his father (a dealer in Las Vegas). He always seems to have an uncanny way of out thinking the hitter. Would you agree?