Mini bullpen?

Well, maybe you should sit back. watch and wait.  It is quite possible that this may turn out to be beneficial to your player.   Definitely do not approach the coach!  Do you know how other pitchers have done under this coach/program?  You could ask around, maybe this approach has worked for his staff.

 

25 pitches at full velocity?  If so, that's not a "mini" bullpen the day before a game.

 

Toss the day before a game, or do a short pen at 50-75% to work on specific issues maybe - but not 25 pitches at full velocity.

 

Look at it this way - if a MLB reliever came in and threw 25 pitches, do you think he would pitch the next day?

 

Edit to add: As LHD says, you have to see how the BP session works out for the other pitchers in the program.  I wouldn't think a HS pitcher wouldn't really feel tired the next day, unless it's early in your season and he just isn't in peak condition. 

  

I don't believe in interfering unless there poses an issue that can cause harm to the player.  Is it an actual bullpen from the mound?

I would gather up some info and head to his office.  Ask him why he does this, then tell him why you feel this may harm your son, but give accurate info to support your reasons.

http://www.jaegersports.com/pr...articles.php?psid=24 Go to bottom for in season conditioning, says NOTHING about a bullpen the day before a start.

 

Hope that this helps.

I would urge caution following random advice... particularly when it impacts your son's relationship with his HC.

 

FWIW, I have seen the approach that you're describing used... 25 pitches from the mound, alternatively thrown as a flat ground session.  The idea, as I understand it, is to workout at ~90% (ie full speed but don't push... emphasis on mechanics) such that the pitcher comes back the next day with a bit of tightness in arm, legs and glutes... supposedly leads to better velocity.  Not a fan of it myself, but I certainly wouldn't approach the coach about it... especially with a freshman player.  It's not an unreasonable approach in the first place and isn't going to lead to injury.  If the player solidifies himself as a pitcher in the program, then there will be opportunities for the player to discuss altering or doing away with the day before pens... and that's assuming that he doesn't find it to be a useful approach.

No. No. No. Unless you have some sort of personal relationship with the coach where you can shoot the breeze with him, DO NOT go to his office and question his methods. Now, I think your player has every right to ask the coach to explain the benfits and risks and the coach's thought process.

By the way, I've used something akin to this for many years and think it beneficial. To note, I've had two pitchers with real injuries in 15 years of coaching pitchers (spread out of 25 years with softball in between). One happened over the summer when he wasn't in my care and the other happened on a single throw as a third baseman.

 

I also do the same thing the day after a start (or on Monday for a Saturday start). Like SG mentions below, though, these are at less than full intensity. I personally live by it as a pitcher's conditioning plan.

I am a huge proponent of never speaking to the coach about playing time, rules, etc.

 

Hey, do what you feel is the right thing to do but this is NOT what pitchers normally do, and regardless whether he has a future in the game, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure your son's health is NOT compromised.

 

I am not sure what you mean by mini bull pen?  25-30 pitches can be considered a full bull, maybe you need to get clarification or clarify for me/us, there is nothing wrong with tossing the day before on flat ground.

Again, does he throw/ from the mound or from the ground?

You do have a good point, though, concerning unorthodox methods. A coach probably does have a duty to explain (at least to the player) what it is he's doing if he goes very far off the beaten path. Now, whether your teenager can adequately rely that explanation to you...

Not a fan.  Even at 90% you will tear...pitching at near or at game intensity, always results in some tearing (stretching) of connective tissue / fibers.  25 pitches is certainly enough to do some of this, and then coming back the next day and pitching does not sound reasonable.  The tired arm, or tightness the next day is possibly the bodies response to swelling, and repairing itself. 

       
       
you sound well informed,thanks for that information.

This is a lot different than not getting playing time, or the other guy is not as good as you and he is playing while your sitting, yada yada.  You cannot expect a young HS player to understand that not everyone knows what the heck they are doing.

 

I think that when you have a pitcher that has been hurt, spent time on the DL you kind of understand looking back in the rear view mirror, that if it doesn't make sense, don't do it.

I agree that you should not talk to the coach in most situations.  However if he hurts your son it really doesn't matter if he likes you or not.  No parent should ever let an adult now mater their position hurt your child.  This is not a good idea "if" it is truly a pen off a mound.

Thanks for the help

So far it appears this is the reason for the short outings by him and a few others. No injuries just a week tired feeling before the game even starts. I don't like being part of all the mumbling in the stands about this drill but I have been dragged in.

Pick a new place to sit, regardless

They are referred to as rhythm pens.  25 pitches at most 5 pitches of each grip, at 50%-75% effort.  I use them with some pitchers who like it and I don't use it with others.  I know a lot of coaches that use them and a lot of coaches that do not.  In regards to hurting yourself.  In all of my years I have never had any type of injury to pitchers that use them.  I am not saying it is right or wrong, I am just giving my opinion as someone who has used them.

HS juniors don't even have 5 offerings so not sure why anyone would throw a 25 pitch rhythm pen the day before. That is what most guys do in a regular bullpen.

I am going to ask the question one more time, was this an actual bullpen thrown from a mound?  At what capacity?

Need more facts.

I've been thinking about this one and I think I need to harshen my position. This is what's happening to high school baseball. Parents think they get a say in the coach's pitching conditioning plans. This is not a situation like the 191 pitch thing. This isn't even that abnormal. I was doing this with high school pitchers 20 years ago and no one EVER questioned it. If a parent had wanted to talk to me about it, I would have politely said that I won't talk about it. If a parent insisted, I'm not sure when that pitcher would see the mound again. Outside of dangerous situations, parents need to stay away from personally questioning the coaches strategy or conditioning methods.

 

The OP simply states that the parents perceive a "difference" in performance by the pitchers. No tales of injuries or sore arms. Persoanlly, I blame economics. The less money schools allote for sports, the more they have to depend on parents and booster clubs. The more they depend on these resources, the more parents think they have a say in how the program is run. AD's have to listen to the parents because that's now where the money is coming from. Parents now feel empowered to have a say in the smallest details of how a coach does his job. Is there any wonder good coaches shy away from high school?

Injuries are accumulative. 4 years of HS...3 years of college..7 pro years and son never threw a bp the day before a start.  Show me an in season workout plan for that.

So you are saying that this coach knows better than the article stated?

A parent has a right to question anything that could potentially harm now or in the future.
JMO

The coach has these bull pens done inside on rubber mounds. I'm not panicking yet on this but we have just never seen so much throwing the day before a start. We are pretty happy about everything else just concerned.

So, you read one article from Jaeger and decide that that is the only approved pitching plan any high school is allowed to use? Am I reading your post right that you are going to question the coach on anything you perceive to be a danger years down the line? Some things (the 191 pitches for example) are pretty much accepted by everyone to be bad news. This isn't even close to being in that category. In fact, it's a plan used by many pitching coaches. Also keep in mind, that while Jaeger's methods are widely used, there are still plenty of coaches out there who question some of his methods.

Look, you are never going to find a coach who will condition or use your kid exactly like you would, but at some point you have to accept that you don't get to micromanage his high school career.

 

roothog, I think there is more to it.

 

Perhaps no chat boards 20 years ago?  Or internet for a parent to get "educated" on a pitching plan?  Or "professionals" selling a pitching/workout plan?  Maybe more studies? Personally, my head is spinning on all the info on what is "right" for my son and pitching.

 

(in response to the 'harshen position/parents' post, just didn't want to make everyone reread / scroll thru)

 

...a mind once expanded never returns to it's original shape...

Ok.  Show me an in season weekly conditioning program appropriate for hs pitchers.

Google it. Jaeger isn't the only person who has one. Plus, the OP's coach has one already apparently. really, are you going to go to your kid's coach with a plan you printed out on the internet. I'd really like to know what the reaction is.

This is a problem as well as a help. parents (like us, I'll admit) go on the internet, thin they are fully educated and then someone like TPM reads a Jaeger article and thinks that's the only way to do it and that any coach who does things differently is an idiot.

Thats not the issue.  The OP has a legit concern about the health of his pitcher.

I didnt say it was the only way to do it.  I said do your homework before you speak to him. I offered one method.

You have offered none.

Welcome aboard

I am pretty old school and usually one of the last dog's to learn a new trick. I was lucky to spend some years around some old grouchy coaches that new baseball. Now I am around a bunch of younger guys that have some MLB experience with new and current idea's and I will admit I am slow to believe in what they are saying. That being said, I haven't seen this method yet applied. In our organization we still try to rest the guy that's gonna pitch tomorrow. On a hot day I will sit the guy that is pitching next game.

 

If your kids are healthy and you win games nobody will say much, but if you have some issues with arms, I bet this method will get the blame.

An example. This is the first year I haven't been my son's coach. I personally don' think long toss is helpful - in fact think it's just the opposite. However, I am fully aware that 80% of coaches use it. My kid's current coach is a big proponent, but I sure as heck am not going to question him on its use. When I let my kid play for a coach, be it high school or T-ball, I put him in his hands. I'm still going to teach him things myself, but he belongs to the team now. If there is something that is undoubtedly dangerous, then I have a decision to make, but the OP's team's pitching plan is normal and rational whether it is how you would do it or not. Always remember you have a choice. Your kid doesn't have to play for that coach if it's that imnportant to you.

That would be my point. WHEN there is a problem, maybe you need to step in. I also note that the OP's worry was that his pitcher felt his arm was tired the day after the mini-bullpen. This, to me is a sign that he needs more throwing, not less. A high school pitcher shouldn't be showing those kind of effects on the arm the day after only throwing 25 pitches.  This may be a quick conditioning program by the coach to compensate for a long winter layoff. You might be singning the praises of this program in a month.

We did a long toss program one year and over a 8-10(not really sure) month period my son went from 77mph to 84mph a 7 mph increase. Everyone wanted to give the program all the credit for these increases that we saw. But nobody took into consideration that some of the credit may need to go to a 15yr old that grew 2" put on 15lbs and had improved mechanics.

Rubber mound!
Tossing isnt the same as throwing a bullpen before pitching day which I thought was the OPs concern.
WHEN there is a problem?
The parent is trying to educate him/herself by asking questions and you say its not ok?
I dont get that.

With regard to the original question, I think it is beneficial to have a small pen the day before the game. If your son is having issues he needs to go to the coach and let him know that he will do whatever the coach instructs but indicate that his arm is not in top shape on game day. He could ask if he could reduce intensity or substitute towel drills or some other drill to address any mechanical issues he might have or more lighter throws to work on release feel. Always, with the explicit understanding that he will do what the coach tells him to do. It must come from the player.

 

As to the rest of the conversation, it is pretty obvious that most coaches value there ego above the parent's concern for their children. I can understand not discussing playing time but other issues should be open for discussion. However, parents expect that the coach's first response will be "I do not discuss." and the second will be to retaliate against the players. It is not a very caring or manly position for them to take, but it is what you get most of the time. If a coach is truly knowledgeable and if he is caring, he sees it as part of his job to educate the players and even the parent when possible. If he is not knowledgeable and caring, he ought to find something else to do.

Having the player talk to the coach and ask, "Hey, coach what is this all about?" is fine. A parent who is in a conversation with the coach askin, "Hey, Coach, I've noticed that you have the kids throw a mini-bullpen before the game. What's that all about?" Fine. marching into the coaches office and asking him to justify his conditioning program? No. Educatin himself? Sure. Saying, "Hey, look at this Jaeger program. It says nothing about the crap you're doing."

By the time you reach HS, you're a young man. It's time for you to start speaking to adults on that level. I think the OP's KID should say, "Coach, I'm feeling a little weak the day of my starts." This is often a plan that anticipates this early in the year as an effort to build up stamina later in the year. But it isn't the parent's place to question it. I'm not saying a parent should never approach the coach, but this is not one of those times.

I completely agree that as a HS player, the young man should be the one to initiate all discussions with the coach. I am not sure it would be out of line for a parent to ask what the thought process is with a particular mode of conditioning. If both parties are respectful you should be able to cover about any topic. It just doesn't seem like there is much expectation of that happening.

Just a bit inside, 

 

There has been a lot of commentary on kinds of day-before throwing that might be ok--rhythmic pen, light tossing, etc.

 

However, we haven't heard from you what these bullpen sessions are like.  

 

What is actually happening.  Is it a full warm up followed by 25 pitches at 90% or better of game effort?  Is it light tossing?  Is it 50-75% effort with an emphasis on tempo and mechanics?  Something else?

 

I'm reluctant to form an opinion on the question without knowing what happens in these pens.

 

Thanks.

I would also want to know how many pitches the starter tends to go the next day. From the OP it sounded like one concern was that pitchers weren't lasting as long. Maybe this i by design. Maybe the coach believes it more beneficial to conditioning for a starter to throw 25 full intensity bullpens on Thursday and 55 pitches on Friday than to pitch 75-80 pitches in the Friday start. Maybe that's why the parents don't think they're going very long in their starts. Could be this coach is thinking conditioning more than W's and L's. Or it could be that he's an idiot. No problem in the player asking (well, don't ask the coach if he's an idiot).

 

I'd also ask the OP if he's asked his son if the coach has in any way explained this program and what the goals are. It could be that the player knows exactly what is going on. However, I'd be shocked that a teen hasn't communicated this sort of thing with Mom and Dad.

As I postedif you have questions and son cant answer go ask.

I think more info. is needed as well, regarding effort, and details of the "mini bullpen".

 

My "guess" is that since they are throwing from an elevated mound, they are high intensity pitches.  Kind of hard to keep same mechanics on the mound, yet throw with little intent.  In addition, I don't think you accomplish much, if anything from the mound, at low intensity, or say less than 90%.

 

Stress from throwing from an elevated mound at 90% intensity is huge, especially at "lay back" position of the arm, before it launches into ball release.  You don't see many strength development performed on repeated days, so I don't think you are building any stamina or strength.  In fact, look at weight lifting, there is always sufficient time built in, between working body parts, to allow to heal....that is how you build strength.

 

Edit to add:  I don't think you accomplish any fine tuning or "feel" at lower than 90% effort in pitching.  You may be gaining feel, or fine tuning for pitching at 70%, but that does not translate when you are now on the mound throwing at 90%+.  Same for developing off speed, or grips...yes you are learning those at 70% effort, but you cannot expect the same result at game intensity.

Very good Back foot slider.

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that the purpose of a bullpen was for practice.  I am in question as to what conditioning is supposed to take place as my understanding is that, as mentioned above, strength development takes place in the gym, or wherever the player does his workouts, or where he does his throwing program, not necessarily which program, but that there is one in place. So for me, this isn't conditioning therefore yes, I might challenge it.

So lets see, 25 pitches on a rubber mound, the next day maybe 20-30 warmup pitches in the pen before a game, then how many more in regulation allowed when he reaches the mound?  Ok so in 2 days, how many pitches has he thrown?

And I or his dad should not speak with the coach and question his method and the benefits that my pitcher will have. We are supposed to wait until his arm hurts to say something?

While I agree that it is up to the player to approach the coach on issues, does the  HS player at this age really understand what is going on?  Does he really know what questions he should ask?

 

 

 

OK. You're wrong. the bullpen is for whatever the coach wants to use it for. Did your kid play travel? I'm pretty sure he did. Did he ever throw 25 (or more) pitches on a Saturday and then pitch again on a Sunday? Did you confront the coach? A general question. How many on here didn't have this happen in travel with their pitcher son? Is there any pitcher's parents on here who never had their kid pitch on consecutive days before high school? If so, did you view it as a health risk?