Mini bullpen?

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this one until now because I don't know what, exactly, the purpose and intensity of the day-before bullpens are.  However, I do disagree strongly with the argument that because most kids played travel and pitched on both Saturday and Sunday, that somehow correlates to this practice and makes it OK.  In fact I think there is a general consensus that the worst thing about youth travel is that many kids get put in the position to pitch multiple game innings on consecutive days (all the while, playing another position - often SS or C) and are run back out on the mound until their arms are sore.

 

To answer your questions... Yes, as a pitcher's parent, I had it happen in travel and yes, I viewed it as a health risk and only wish I knew more way back then to be quicker to put my foot down.  And I really didn't have any excuses as I had been around the game forever prior to my kids coming up through it.

 

 

So, in high school, if the coach pitched your kid 25 pitches on Friday and then trotted him back out on Saturday for, say, 50 pitches, you'd confront the coach?

I believe the point made by BFS and assented to by TPM is that there is no way a bullpen on one day will yield a conditioning benefit on the next day.

If you work hard enough to condition a group of muscles, then by definition you have stressed and fatigued them. Those muscles must recover before they can again perform at a peak level. 

I still don't know what kind of bullpen we're talking about, but "conditioning" is not a plausible explanation. If the pitchers are throwing hard enough for conditioning, they will negatively affect performance the next day. If they aren't, then it's not conditioning.

Also, I'm not willing to accept the pitcher use patterns of pre-high school travel coaches as a guide for what does and does not invite unnecessary risk of injury. However, I can state with confidence that I am one parent whose son never pitched in games on consecutive days--in youth, travel high school, or college.

You just described a situation entirely different than what I disagreed with.  That said, I'll try to answer your new question.  BTW, several years later, with all my kids now in college, I am one of the HS coaches.  If this incident were an exception as opposed to a regular occurrence and it was clear that my kid's arm was plenty fresh, I would not confront the coach.  If the coach was regularly pitching my kid a few innings or so Friday night and then coming back and pitching him several innings on Saturdays, this would be cause for concern.  It would be addressed through what I thought was proper channels.  If I'm the dad of a P, I would expect son to have a working dialog with coach as to what his reasonable workload and rest periods should be.  Pitching on consecutive days on a regular basis (beyond just an inning or two per) is, in my mind, not reasonable and that dialog would have to be escalated. 

 

For perspective, I have three kids and each has participated in multiple youth and HS sports and one still playing college ball.  They have had, literally, hundreds of different coaches between them.  Escalated dialog (me involved) has happened exactly once.  That particular HS coach had an extremely short-lived career and not as a result of any actions on my part.  

+1

Whatever anyone thinks about it, the point remains that there is a coaching philosophy out there whereby pitchers are directed to throw a 25 pitch bullpen the day before pitching in a game.  My son played under this philosophy for two seasons.  As I said earlier, I never liked the practice.  Son didn't like it either, and after talking with me about it he picked a moment and asked the coach about it.  Coach said he wanted it done that way... and that was that.  I don't believe that it was detrimental to arm health.  We both left it alone after that and son would sometimes sub a flat ground in place of the pen.

 

My point to the OP would be to think it through fully before you go tapping the HC on the shoulder about it.  You've gotten some good input here about the practice.  FWIW, I believe BFS is one the most knowledgable posters on this site regarding the subject of pitching.  If you believe that the bullpens are harmful to your son, then he should talk to his Coach about it.  And if you are still concerned after that conversation, then not much choice but to talk with the HC yourself.

 

Just don't let someone else's free and easy opinions from a message board lead you to do something that may impact YOUR son or his HS playing days.

What is considered free and easy?

 

Nor should a parent ignore concerns about his or her player's health and safety just because he has been reassured by some guy on a message board that a workout whose purpose and structure he doesn't know is probably okay because "there is a couching philosophy out there" of unknown provenance and validity which may or may not prescribe the workouts the player is performing.

 

 

 

I ran this by DK tonight and he just shook his head.  I stand corrected he did pitched back to back in AAA in relief.  One time.
If this is such a good philosophy why dont pro teams use it?
if my son asked that question and got no answer he would have taken himself out of the game as a pitcher.  Never let anyone use your son as their own guinea pig!
So I am waiting for a run down on how this works and the benefits.

1. I believe I suggested the very same... To not ignore any concerns and to take action accordingly if need be.

 

2. I didn't reassure the OP about anything regarding the workout.  However, like it or not, I have seen it used... directly with son's team and have seen other coaches using it as well.

SG,

Since you are familiar with this method, can you share what is the philosophy and why.  Havent heard that part. Just because I want to do it is not an acceptable answer.

Just a bit inside,

You have been given lots of input, it is you that has to decide what is best for your son.

 

Not one person here has mentioned why a 25 pitch bullpen the day before they start is a good thing, or why it should be done, so IMO you should never sit back and assume that the coach is doing the right thing when it comes to his health you have a right to ask questions, the comments marching into the coaches office and others was not the intention. What happened was that this turned into a what you should not do, rather than providing you correct info as to why the coach is using that method to prepare for his outing the next day. Maybe some folks don't care for  what I provided, but I did provide something that is used by many, with an alternative that may make more sense.

 

Asking questions about something that could harm your player is not going to give him less playing time, unless your son isn't really that good, the coaches always put the best 9 on the field and good coaches respect players that want to understand the game and why you do things a certain way, and why you don't.  This has nothing to do with the usually silly stuff like why am I not playing, why can't I play second, etc. It is your responsibility to protect your son.  My son threw very hard as a young pitcher and if we didn't learn to say no, wasn't careful with who he played for and forbid multi teams at the same time, or back to back outings,  he may not have made it even to college.

As far as no harm done, pitching is a funny thing, it takes years for things to show up. Its not always a one time event.

I think that what a lot of  coaches (especially ex coaches) do not understand (its my way or the highway) is that many parents and players are better educated than they were even 10 years ago.

BTW, does your son play position as well?

Please re read my post because I never said anything about a pitcher throwing 5 different pitches.

Inside FB x 5

Away FB x 5

Change x 5

BB x 5

You throw in a couple of pitches, if needed, that didn't feel right and that would push you to 25, at the most, like I said.

Not one person has answered my inquiry.
What benefit does this bullpen before a start provide?
Why cant anyone answer that question?

Muscle memory and repitition close in time to a pitchers start. Like I said, I use something like this (though 20 pitches, not 25). In my experience, throwing a 20 pitch bullpen the day before a start allows my starting pitcher to get "into the groove" with fewer bullpen warmups before the game and earlier into his start. I'll only say that my pitchers seem (my own obsevation) to have less trouble getting started in the first when I do it this way. I don't have anything to back it up, but I firmly believe it has led to fewer first inning pitches thrown by my starters. YMMV, but that's my benefit eplanation.

Thanks for the reply. Interesting for the ones who said their pitchers used this method but didn't seem to have an answer. Even the OP has not come back with exactly what his son was doing.

Question, in the 20 pitch bull pen did they throw from the mound, and at what %?  Getting out of the first with less pitches is definetly a good thing, but how far could they go, and with how many pitches?

One more thing, were your players also position players?

Your question to me was answered before it was asked the first time... Or the second... Or the fifth.  Change the record already.

I didnt see that but also thanks for the pm reply you never sent.
So how much velocity did your son gain?
Root had another reason why its done.
And you guys expect someone just to accept this is ok for a pitcher?

When I coached high school pitchers (and American Legion), I did it as a bullpen the day before a start. Not at full intensity, but I also teach my pitchers not to throw at full intensity every pitch on the mound in a game anyway. My most recent experiences has been coaching youth. There, I would use my bracket (Sunday pitchers) on the mound for 25 pitches on Saturday for the same purpose. That being my top two starters who would throw a 50 pitch full out bullpen on Wednesday, 25 pitches on Saturday, and a start on Sunday. This is for 12-15, not my 8-11yo's. I always felt this kept their mechanics sharp which I also believe to be at least as much an injury factor (lax mechanics, that is) as overuse. Can I swear this works? No. It's only my own experience However, the only pitching injury I've had (and I follow my ex pitchers through their careers) was a torn bicep on a throw as a third baseman. However, there are plenty of coaches who'll tell you they severely limited innings and also had no injuries, so it's all anecdotal. Personally, I'm amazed that in this day and age we still know so little about pitching injuries. The ASMI work is a start, but so little has really been done.

Root,

Thanks for the info, I kind of got the idea where you are coming from.

Each human body is different, so I don't think there is a one size fits all. My son has had two injuries involving the shoulder and the elbow that set him back since he was drafted, one took almost 3 seasons to figure out, and all kinds of theories popped up. Don't do this, do that, etc.  So he has been through quite a few traditional and non traditional pitching stuff.   

 

I guess you are right, I never answered that before.  Ok, I have had some pitchers in the past that have used it to feel comfortable the day before starts with their grips and mechanics.  Some pitchers never want to pick up a ball in between starts and throw, from a pitchers stand point, and they are fine with it.  Others get to there starts and seem and feel out of whack. 

Thanks. So wouldn't that be the purpose of the bullpen before the game?  To get comfortable with what is working and what is not that day (as all days for pitchers can be different)?

I will answer your question.

 

None, unless the pitcher wants to.

 

It's time the Coaches check their ego.  That's whats wrong with the Pitching Community.  Ego.  Every pitcher is Not the same.  Every pitching workout needs to be customized for each pitcher. Every Major League pitcher has their own individual preparation and practice routine. .

 

Create a pregame routine for each pitcher.  Create a pre-pitch routine for every pitcher.  When in question Test, Track and Tweak as needed

 

Everything a pitcher does should be to prepare and practice for what they need to do to be a successful pitcher.  I have been coaching and training pitchers for 20+ years and have never treated any two pitchers the same.

 

Everything a pitcher does should be to build their confidence.  It doesn't matter what the coach thinks, if the pitcher don't believe it then it doesn't help their confidence at all.

 

It's not about disrespecting coaches, but if the pitcher doesn't want to do it, then it's not beneficial.  It will just be a source of frustration for all involved.

 

The parents don't need to approach the coach, the pitcher does.  If the coach gets offended then shame on him for believing in some philosophy that he can't explain.  I run across this all the time.  If a coach can't explain logically why they do something then they shouldn't teach it or preach it.

 

Coaches need to take the time to create a weekly routine around what builds the most confidence for each pitcher.  If the pitcher wants to throw a mini bullpen the day before then do it, if he don't then don't.  But that doesn't mean that there isn't a weekly plan in place, it just means that each pitcher might a slightly different routine.  High velocity pitchers usually require more recovery time, but not always.

 

See there is always a counter argument for every situation, that is why it needs to be built around each pitcher's individual needs.

 

The best coaches I know develop each pitcher around what the pitcher needs to be successful, then the Coach gets to be successful too.

 

Fair question and the pitcher and coach should be able to talk their way to a solution.

Thanks for the reply. 

 

You made a great point, but I believe that most here are afraid that if they (the player) question certain things the coach does that they wont play. I am not sure why coaches sometimes don't want to realize that children (yes they still are children)  learn differently in the classroom so why can't that happen on the field?

 

I guess hearing some of these stories is not what we experienced with son, even in youth bb, because he was different than most pitchers, his coaches recognized that and treated him accordingly.  That continued in travel ball, HS as well as in college.

 

I think that developing a plan early teaches the pitcher to understand what he is comfortable with and what he feels will help him to be successful as he grows and matures.

 

I am in agreement with you, if a coach can't explain a philosophy that he is using, then he shouldn't be using it, or maybe he just shouldn't be coaching.

TPM,

 

I am glad you and your son had a good experience.  But 90% of the young pitchers I work with I spend the first couple of weeks rebuilding their confidence and deconstructing the damage some well meaning, but uninformed drill instructor/coach has done.

 

The very first thing I work with them on is what they can control and what they can't control.  Then focusing everything we do on what the pitcher is in control of.  

 

We develop his commitment level, his consistency, his competitiveness and his communication skills on how to deal with coaches and teammates. That's how real confidence is developed, in their preparation and practice habits. Once they believe in their preparation and practice habits transferring that confidence to real game becomes a whole lot easier. 

 

I actually teach pitching backwards, I work on the emotional and mental skills first, then focus on their physical development.

 

This gives me opportunity to get to know each pitcher and them me.  I want them to know I care more about them as a person than I do as a pitcher.  Then if they want to continue, we go all out on developing them as a complete pitcher and person.

 

That's what I believe all coaches should do and yes their is time to do it if you make time to do it.  

 

I think you are going to find in the next couple of years many D-1 Coaches and Pro Scouts shying away from select/travel team pitchers because they don't trust the coach's use of pitchers and because of all the arm issues and injuries.

 

I know some Scouts and College Coaches that are moving more towards individual tryouts and prefer their recruits not to play summer ball at all.

 

It will be interesting how the business of select/ travel team baseball responds to that.  If a unknown pitcher shows up at an individual College or Pro tryout and throws 90+ with a good change up and decent curve/slider there won't be one Coach or Scout care if he ever played select baseball.

 

I know because I was one, one tryout and great senior year an 5'11" 151 lbs small town country pitcher got a full ride to University of Missouri and drafted by the Philadelphia Phillies. 

 

If you can pitch, they will find you. The internet and video has been a recruiting game changer.  I guess we will see.

dctc11, you sound like a breath of fresh air.  My Frosh son is experiencing something right now I'd like to get your input on.  At his HS, starting in January,  pitchers did bull pens 3 times weekly up until the season started in March (pitching for all 3 teams is run by the V pitching coach).  Bull pens pretty much ceased after the season started except once every two weeks or so.  My son, one of the top pitchers on his Frosh team, was struggling with control issues.  He went to his coach after one of his starts and said he needed more work because that's how he stays sharp. His coach told him he was making excuses and that he should work on his own time if he thinks he needs it (not sure how to fit that in with practice/games 6 days a week after school).  The next day, during the first bull pen in weeks (imagine that), the V pitching coach approached him and told him he was arrogant and disrespectful for talking to his coach the way he did.  My son was shocked and just stood in silence.  This all happened two weeks ago and my son hasn't pitched since.  Not sure what to do at this point.  My son is one of the most polite, respectful kids you'll meet.  What my son was trying to explain is what works for him. The only thing I can think of is his coaches felt he was telling them how to do their job.  Any ideas?

I don't think you will ever find a D-1 coach or pro scout that will hold a grudge against a dominating pitcher that plays summer ball. 6'4" 220lbs 94mph nice off speed, great competitor in Jupiter, and NO THANK YOU WE ARE NOT INTERESTED BECAUSE YOU PLAYED SUMMER BALL!!! .....Whatever!

You say a lot that makes sense, but your assertion that scouts and recruiters are moving away from select/travel team pitchers is a bit bizarre. Show me the scout that is shying away from these pitchers and I'll show you the scout that is soon to be unemployed. I'll believe this when I go to a PG tourney and DON'T see a hundred of these guys with their radar guns. How many elite pitchers do you think you'll find outside of select/travel teams?

Thanks for the reply.  I never said they would. But if they keep getting 18 year olds who need TJ surgery after their first year of College or Pro Ball they are going to look for someone/ something to blame.  And it will be the perceived and sometimes earned overuse by high school or summer ball coaches. It they had a choice between a one who did play select ball for 4 years and a pitcher that didn't it would be interesting to see who they would prefer. I know the ones I talk to would prefer the one that didn't.  Don't need to holler.

Thanks for the reply.

I am not talking about position players, just pitchers. If the College Coaches or Pro Scouts would go on ESPN and say for pitchers we would prefer they didn't throw more than (Fill In the Blank) innings in summer ball you would see the Select ball pitchers disappear.  With the internet and video anybody can get exposure.  But just like my reply above.  With the money that is spent on arm injuries you are going to see something change.  Believe me it makes it easier for Scouts to go to a PG Tourney but if they had the choice they would take the pitcher that hasn't thrown excessive summer or travel ball innings.  Also when these young pitchers are pitching for exposure they rarely will tell a coach when their arm is hurting, that pressure bothers me somewhat. How about you? 

Sorry you are going through that, it's frustrating.  I would have your son approach the coach and apologize to the coach if he took it wrong way. You have to be the bigger man here and try to open the communication back up.  

 

Then ask the coach about helping him to develop a throwing plan that would help him build his confidence and stay sharp.  And make sure he tells the coach that he likes to have focused practice bullpens and that he feels better when he has them more often.

 

Its's a shame that coaches have to act this way.  I am totally against parental involvement unless potential injury is involved, but if coaches can't communicate with these young players the parents are going to get involved and we are going to continue to lose some great athletes to other sports purely out of ego.

 

The first sign a coach don't know what he is doing is when he gets defensive about simple things such as throwing bullpens.  I would just try to reopen the communication between your son and coach and hopefully the coach will be mature enough to respond in the right way.

 

Good Luck

First, scouts aren't going to go on ESPN and say any such thing. The landscape has changed and it isn't going back to the way it is and I don't think scouts want it to. Their job is to find the best talent available for their clubs and the current system is the one that makes it easier on them. Besides, you can't discount the fact that the current system also has something to do with the increases we're seeing in velocity.

 

I'll also counter your contention that the best pitchers are being overused by their summer clubs. Those teams are elite and generally have very deep pitching staffs. When we hear about the 150-200 pitch stories, they're happening in high school, not summer ball. Unless you're talking about 9-12yos, in which case this makes no sense because those pitchers don't kow they are elite yet. 

I am always amazed with the baseball community.  If you really don't think that Scouts care about Pitchers are used in Summer ball then you don't talk to many scouts.  Yes tournaments make it easier to mass scout players, but at the same time not knowing how the pitcher has been used is a concern in both High School and Select ball.

If you really don't think that arm injuries aren't a Major Concern at every level (especially at the Professional level) and how to prevent them then I guess you are right and the millions of dollars being spent or loss because of those injuries at the Major League level is just a figment of my imagination.

 

I get several emails a year from parents asking me if their 15 to 18 year old should be throwing on consecutive days or even 3 days in a row in Select showcase tournaments. So yeah it happens more than you want to believe it does.

 

Plus someone ought to tell these parents that are paying thousands of dollars for their 10 year old to play on a select travel team that their son is not elite and is not really getting exposure.  Yeah I hear from them all the time too.

 

But hey appreciate your point of view and we can agree to disagree on this one.

Have a great day.

You isunderstand my point. Why is it you think that they know how the pitcher is being used in high school, but not on their summer team? In my experience, the summer teams are much more transparent and, with the upper level teams that scouts are looking at, overuse is no where near the problem it is in high school. In high school, a team has a limited pitching and rides the stud throwing 90+. On the upper level travel teams, the pitching staff is usually deep. With scouts/recruiters following the elite travel tournaments I believe they have a better handle on how a pitcher is being used than they do with the kid just playing high school ball.

If scouts were to stop attending the PG-type showcases and tourneys, sure the elite pitchers would stop playing as much, but who's going to be the first one to do that? Additionally, a lot of good pitchers would slip through the cracks. While the internet has helped even the playing field, is a scout going to choose to go to one site where he can see a hundred prospects in one weekend or spend his time sorting through the hundreds of videos he gets hoping to find a couple of worthy pitchers? When he goes to the showcase tourney, he knows what is going to be there, whereas he may have to sift through a hundred videos to find one 90+ guy.

 

And yes, I've talked to many, many scouts. However, not so many since the 90's, so things have changed a lot, I'm sure.

Sorry I blew up! I was trying to act like a recruiter that just found out that a kid had been playing summer ball.

Thanks for the advice - much appreciated.

I get the seeing several pitchers at one time aspect.  But it has been a long time since I heard a Scout say a 90+ pitcher has slipped through the cracks. There are very few 90+ top prospects that need exposure. But you are hearing more GM's talk about drafting athletes and converting them to pitchers.  Not trying to start a war.  There are some great club teams and awesome coaches that do a great job. I was just interested in the feedback.  

 

I personally don't care as long as the parents can afford it and the pitchers get enough recovery time and mound time to make it a good experience.  

 

Either way I agree there are a lot of Scouts at some of these tournaments and will be as long there are prospects there.  But I think you will start to see some of the top prospects that are afraid of arm injuries focusing on individual pre-draft workouts like some of the other sports.

There are some coaches from big programs that look to the north to sign players just because they do not pitch year round. It hurts them very much when a pitcher goes down.

 

One does not have to throw 90s to be a successful college pitcher

 

I remember when son was being recruited coaches did ask the number of innings he pitched as a junior and senior.

 

 

Parents of younger kids...keep one of these.  You can give it to the recruiters, scouts or the TJ doctors later on when they gather data.  Let the coaches know you keep them.  Teach your kid about pitch counts, arm care and health.  He will be his own best advocate.