mlb managers verbal abuse

It's not the umpire who is humiliated.

I'm surprised that you don't see more smirking from umpires as players and coaches make fools of themselves on the field. Maybe that is what separates minor league guys from the MLB guys, the ability to maintain an austere demeanor while some idiot plays circus all by himself.

quote:

Originally posted by fvb10:
I'm surprised that you don't see more smirking from umpires as players and coaches make fools of themselves on the field. Maybe that is what separates minor league guys from the MLB guys, the ability to maintain an austere demeanor while some idiot plays circus all by himself.

More often what separates MiLB umps from MLB umps in game management is that MiLB managers get to the magic words quicker.

Maybe if they made the proper call? Watching the playoffs I saw some really questionable calls. (fair foul Minnesota yankees)1 example.
If the umpire feels the manager is abusive or as they say says the magic word or words he throws the manager out. When is the last time an umpire got thrown out of a game.

Guess who thinks they are the center of attention in baseball games---umpires should be there but not seenor heard--those are the good ones which there are very few of nowadays

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Guess who thinks they are the center of attention in baseball games---umpires should be there but not seenor heard--those are the good ones which there are very few of nowadays

Ah yes, umpires are the bane of the game. They think the game is about them. They are incompetent. They are lazy. They don't understand the game. They don't have a clue about the rules.

There that should take cae of it Twhit...no need to come back with your incessant bashing for at least a week now.

Anyone who believe the best umpires are "invisible" is an idiot. When umpires try to remain invisible they are not doing their job, or they're cowards.

Umpires are the only party without a vested interest in the outcome, and the only party who, by rule, represents the game of baseball.

I'm truly sorry you appear to have had experienced some bad umpiring. But the consistent bashing of the entire population based on your experience and what you have demonstrated to be a flawed understanding is ridiculous and growing ever so tedious.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Maybe if they made the proper call? Watching the playoffs I saw some really questionable calls. (fair foul Minnesota yankees)1 example.
If the umpire feels the manager is abusive or as they say says the magic word or words he throws the manager out. When is the last time an umpire got thrown out of a game.

Yep. Mistakes were made. Guess what? Mistakes will be made in the future. Just as the best baseball players, as a group, in the world strike out, drop fly balls, screw up throws, make little league base running errors, miss the cut-off and just plain brain ****, so too are umpires human and capable of screwing up.

Let's compare the number of player errors and screwups added to the number of boneheaded decisions made by managers with the number of incorrect calls by umpires.

Then lets determine which party won or lost games.

Many people say an umpire should go unnoticed in a game. That is partly true but not for the reason coaches think. An umpire should not interject himself into a game and make an unneeded call or a highly technical call that serves no purpose or worse, incorrect. But by the token he should never pass on an interference call or let a coach slide just to keep peace, it will come back and cause twice as many problems later. Whether we eject someone or make an unpopular ruling, it doesn't mean we are doing wrong, it simply means we are doing our jobs. So an unnoticed umpire may mean he called a good but uneventful game or it could mean he chickened out out on calling a play the way he should.

Jimmy
You typify the average umpire--all coaches are wrong--umpires are right--

We use umpires in RI for our tournament that are superior--I have no problem with them at all--they have even been known to correct an incorrect call right on the spot without urging from coaches or fans

You can think what you wish just as I can but I like my side of the street--my side of the street has no "floating strike zone" nor umpires with bad eyesight

Great comeback for you: after a series of bad calls regard strikes/balls a fan yells out " Hey Ump--your dog lied to you!!!"

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy
You typify the average umpire--all coaches are wrong--umpires are right--

We use umpires in RI for our tournament that are superior--I have no problem with them at all--they have even been known to correct an incorrect call right on the spot without urging from coaches or fans

You can think what you wish just as I can but I like my side of the street--my side of the street has no "floating strike zone" nor umpires with bad eyesight

Great comeback for you: after a series of bad calls regard strikes/balls a fan yells out " Hey Ump--your dog lied to you!!!"

I will repond just once. I don't get into long discusions with coaches.

You, sir, are the one who makes generalizations. You, sir, are the one who blasts all members of the umpire class. I do not do the same with coaches. I respect the vast majority of the coaches with whom I work. Fortuntately, off the internet and in the real world, I have met very few coaches who act like you, and that includes work in HS, NCAA and MiLB.

You come "in" to the umpiring page, time after time, to commplain and insult. You will not see me acting in any similar fashion when I post to a coaching page.

This is the first post in memory in which you actually praised an umpire, but then, in line with your character, you had to follow that up with a slam.

Your wish for "invisible" umpires shows your lack of knowledge, no matter how long you've coached. The try for invisibility is what screws up game management more than anything else.

Finally, I have never, in any post, indicated a believe that umpires are always correct of do not make mistakes. What I have said, and what you conveniently ignored, is that players and coaches, make more. And that, sir, is a provable fact.

The worst MLB umpire gets 95% of his calls correct. Show me a player or coach who performs his job with that accuracy. Just one.

Now I'll go back and rectify my biggest mistake, getting drawn into a discussion with you. That will not happen again.

Have a great day.

quote:

Then lets determine which party won or lost games.

jimmy o3

Never said anything about winning or losing a game. Just said that they missed some calls.

Jimmy03


Does that mean you cannot win when we debate ??



You seem to be an nice eperson but an egocentic umpire


Why are you umpires so defensive ?

jimmy 06

coaches coach umpires umpire. I coached for close to 30 years. what I found over that period was in the beginning you could ask an umpire where a pitch was or reasonably argue a call and that was it. In my last few years (late 90's) I saw in the younger umpires coming up an attitude. Trying to explain it is difficult but they were less tolerant of coaches questioning a call or asking where a pitch was. Now i understand there is a way to do things. example Was that pitch a little low inside etc etc. Not you blew that pitch. In the beginning of my coaching tenure I would ask was that pitch low umpire would say something like the pitcher has to bring it up etc etc. No problem. i remember my last year asking a young umpire something similar and he tore off his mask and told me to shut up about balls and strikes. What happened? also later in my tenure when coming on the field to discuss a call was told to get off my(the umpires) field. How did this umpire get that perspective of things?

Will,

I have seen some of the same, and I have a theory about that. But first:

I, too have been around over 30 years. And one of the differences I see today in coaching is less civility, the eagerness by some to challenge EVERY call, more temper tantrums and the lack of rules knowledge compared to 30 year ago. What's happened?

First the umpires. 30 years ago there was very little consistent, coordinated or national training or standards for umpires. Those of us who really wanted to "do this right" had to find a mentor with true experience at higher levels. There were few, and is some areas, no clinics or camps run by credible individuals. Pro school were attended by those trying to get into pro ball...period. Despite our tendency to remember the good of the past, amateur umpiring, up to and including college level ball, pretty much sucked in the 60's. 70's and early 80's.

Then things changed, most noticeably to me, in the mid 90's. The number of pro camps and clinics began to multiply significantly and many more amateurs began to attend pro school to "get better" rather than to get a job.

The "pro mentality" spread to amateur baseball. Unforutnately, as those who received training from pro camps, clinics and schools moved from student to instuctor at the local level, the negative "more fun" elements of the pro mentaltity took hold with youngsters more than the positive elements. This included more aggressive enforcement of the rules against arguing balls and strikes and other judgement calls. This also included more agressive interpretation of coaches comments. And more widespread acceptance of the field belonging to the umpires during the game. (You can references to that in the rule book, despite how few times you'll find umpires mowing, raking or watering.)

Over time, while umpiring has improved since the 60's, we have also increased the tendency of these better umpire to be harda$$#es. Depite being professionally trained and having worked in MiLB I can see this trend, and I am discouraged by it. When I train umpires, I work hard to avoid producing this type of umpire. Unfortunately, when guys I've trained move on to NCAA or MiLB, they are immersed in it and bring it back home.

Even LL is not immune. I've noticed umps who attend their regional training coming back with similar attitudes.

And, the growing aggresiveness of coaches has not helped, rather it has expanded the chasm between the two.

Now, why the increased incivility of coaches? Besides recognizing the increased incivility of Americans in general...from talk radio to dinner conversation...I see two suspects.

First, similar to "pro-lization" of umpires, many coaches have gone through similar experiences as the number of training opportunities put on by former major leaguers have expanded. I know of some coaches who attend at least two clinics each year. There they are exposed to the professional attitude toward umpires which is at best, that they are an unfortunate necessary expense. These coaches, especially those who work select travel ball and are entrusted with true pro aspect players, then take on the persona of pro managers...umpire hating and all. The "Where was that one?" that used to be asked calmly and sincerely is now too often not a question but a challenge.

Secondly, I fault TV. As a kid, my exposure to baseball that I couldn't see in person was on the radio. God, I loved listening to those games. Baseball was made for radio. With the layout of the field, player positions, predictable direction of base running, you could "see" the game as the announcers described the action. But managers and players didn't have close ups and there wasn't the constant re-runs of managers having a Bobby Cox or Lou Pinella moment. Today, the kids and beginning coaches see that **** and think that's the way to behave on the field.

Every year, the number of Lou Pinellas coaching varsity high school increases.

Between the two, the development of more harda$$ umpires and more jerka$$ coaches, we have what we have.

I try my best not to get involved in it on the field, or on the internet. There are sites where arguments and stupidity are the rule. This site has been run fairly well and I don't wish to ruin it by going back and forth with those who obviously don't understand umpiring. That's why I usually limit my responses to specific posts to one or two. There's really little honest debate on the internet and I understand that I am not going to change the minds of those who "know" they are right.

I believe I've been fairly balanced. I don't excuse incompetent umpiring. I have, here, in the past, apologized for my misguided brethern. But I also will not accept the blanket condemnation or consistent bashing of umpires some bring to this site. Most umpires, on the whole, do an often thankless job fairly well.

Thanks for asking.

Very well stated Jimmy. I agree with the overall lack of civility from both sides for exactly why Jimmy says. I too try to keep from training reda$$es but some guys will only hear what they want. Umpires make mistakes but we train hard to keep it to a minimum. The reason we are accused of being defensive is because of being accused of being unknowledgable,lazy and arrogant. Are there guys like that, sure. Are there guys that work for the money and bring nothing to the game,sure. The thing is, good umpires hate these types as much as coaches do.

Jimmy 03

I guess there is plenty of blame to go around. As a coach all I waned was an umpire to hustle and be consistent. Is he going to miss a call of course. As a coach I also have the right to civilly disagree with him. I guess the operative word is civilly. good umpires work hard to improve themselves. good coaches work hard everyday with their players to make them better. If a coach is going to be as you say a jerka$$ and the umpire is a harda$$ they are both wrong. Respect is a 2 way street and has to be earned.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Jimmy 03
I guess the operative word is civilly. good umpires work hard to improve themselves. good coaches work hard everyday with their players to make them better. If a coach is going to be as you say a jerka$$ and the umpire is a harda$$ they are both wrong. Respect is a 2 way street and has to be earned.

I would disagree in this respect: I believe respect should be accorded in both directions, until proven unwarranted. I don't require a coach to prove anything to have my respect at the beginning of a game or season. But he can lose it as time goes on.

quote:

I don't require a coach to prove anything to have my respect at the beginning of a game or season. But he can lose it as time goes on.

It goes the other way also.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I don't require a coach to prove anything to have my respect at the beginning of a game or season. But he can lose it as time goes on.

It goes the other way also.

I would hope so.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I don't require a coach to prove anything to have my respect at the beginning of a game or season. But he can lose it as time goes on.

It goes the other way also.

I would hope so.

Jimmy, did you change this last post?

The wording,yes, but not the intended meaning. I was not happy with how my first attempt sounded. It was clumsily constructed and didn't convey my meaning as well as the edited statement does.

Simple was better in this instance.

Thanks, I thought my dog read it to me wrong the first time.

This year was the first year I both coached and umpired within the same season. It changed my perspective both ways. The guys who would like to see players bow to them before each at bat and think the fans came out to watch them ump are hard to stomach. Call the game without drawing undo attention but also don't run away from making calls just to avoid confrontation, Michael stated it best. Likewise, coaches that chirp at every call will earn less of an ear and walk a shorter plank than those who choose their spots. The human element is part of what makes the game great, but can also detract from it.

quote:

Originally posted by Kumi:
Thanks, I thought my dog read it to me wrong the first time.

This year was the first year I both coached and umpired within the same season. It changed my perspective both ways. The guys who would like to see players bow to them before each at bat and think the fans came out to watch them ump are hard to stomach. Call the game without drawing undo attention but also don't run away from making calls just to avoid confrontation, Michael stated it best. Likewise, coaches that chirp at every call will earn less of an ear and walk a shorter plank than those who choose their spots. The human element is part of what makes the game great, but can also detract from it.

I first saw it written on another site: "There are umpires who coach and coaches who umpire, but there are no coach/umpires or umpire/coaches."

I believe this to be true. Deep inside we are one or the other, and that will, sooner or later, affect how we do both jobs.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.