Inside College — By The Numbers
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OK, more kids are going to college. Are there now more jobs requiring a college degree available when they graduate? It's the immigrants and children of immigrants (Asians, Indians, etc) who are mastering the sciences which means the US still importing the talent rather than producing it within in the country. And if the US can't produce the talent these immigrants have every right to come here and fill the void.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
And if the US can't produce the talent these immigrants have every right to come here and fill the void.
That doesn’t really make sense to me, no one said anything about immigrants or their rights...
Borderline unnecessary comment IMHO.I am glad that more students are choosing college directly after high school.
It means regardless of any feel good stories kids born in America and attending public school are getting robbed of a quality education due to the political agendas now creeping into schools. Others are emigrating to America and taking their place at the top universities and top technical and scientific jobs. Once the immigrants are citizens it's just padding the stats against the reality of the situation.
The USA has by far the best post-secondary education system in the world and both the colleges themselves and the international student benefits from having the college open to non-resident students. Bringing the best minds in the world to the USA to potentially work here doesn't seem like a bad thing.
I'm confused by what is meant by the comment...? I'm all for brilliant minds coming here and attending our colleges and even more for them immigrating here permanently and contributing to society. I don't want to protect the so-called "top jobs" for less qualified native-born Americans if someone else can do the job better...sounds like a recipe for mediocrity.
I'm confused by what is meant by the comment...? I'm all for brilliant minds coming here and attending our colleges and even more for them immigrating here permanently and contributing to society. I don't want to protect the so-called "top jobs" for less qualified native-born Americans if someone else can do the job better...sounds like a recipe for mediocrity.
I want to see the kids going through the public schools in this country getting the quality education. I want them to be prepared for college. I want them to be qualified for the top jobs when they graduate. Right now it's not the case. Kids are getting too much indoctrination and not enough education in our public schools.
One of the by-products of all these kids going to college is being saddled with tens and hundreds of thousands in debt because they can't get a job. Years ago, you could get a decent job out of HS, work your way thru the ranks and eventually end up with a good steady paying job, stay there many years and earn a decent pension. Today, many of these same jobs, you need that bachelors and masters degree but they have no experience or are a liability in the job market. The only thing going for them is they can be hired on the cheap. What's funny is my high tech education has been paid for over thousands of times over my career yet there are jobs out there that I've been doing for 30 years but I'm no longer qualified for because I don't have my bachelors or masters degree but yet far more qualified than those with bachelors and masters degrees.
While I think education is a great thing and a necessity in toay's world to get a college degree, especially those in the medical and engineering fields, and my two kids, one graduated with his bachelors and the other starting in fall, there's still a part of me that thinks this is in some way, a scam because I see tons of college graduates with bachelors and masters degrees unemployed, working in a retail store or waiting tables in a restaurant so where is this piece of paper and the tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt worth it?
Maybe going back to the days of more entry level jobs out of high school would be a good thing. It will get those not college material in the workforce instead of a college classrooom and they're only there because mom and dad want them there and have been told the only way to make it is to get a college education. Another benefit will be less kids n debt and at the same time become productive and valuable workers who's skill set will increase as well as their earning power as the years go by.
As for foreigners coming here, getting free rides and grants to colleges, I won't get into it here because this will only blow my blood pressure thru the roof and I'm not about to blow a gasket over this.
While I think education is a great thing and a necessity in toay's world to get a college degree, especially those in the medical and engineering fields, and my two kids, one graduated with his bachelors and the other starting in fall, there's still a part of me that thinks this is in some way, a scam because I see tons of college graduates with bachelors and masters degrees unemployed, working in a retail store or waiting tables in a restaurant so where is this piece of paper and the tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt worth it?
Maybe going back to the days of more entry level jobs out of high school would be a good thing. It will get those not college material in the workforce instead of a college classrooom and they're only there because mom and dad want them there and have been told the only way to make it is to get a college education. Another benefit will be less kids n debt and at the same time become productive and valuable workers who's skill set will increase as well as their earning power as the years go by.
As for foreigners coming here, getting free rides and grants to colleges, I won't get into it here because this will only blow my blood pressure thru the roof and I'm not about to blow a gasket over this.
Simple truth -- America has become the greatest country on earth precisely because it takes immigrants and benefits from the labor and brains they bring. Ellis Island is more than proof positive of this and I'd wager a huge percentage of posters here have someone that went through there not more than 3-4 generations ago.
Irish need not apply.....think about it. If you don't know what that means then please do some reading, it's good for the soul.
Irish need not apply.....think about it. If you don't know what that means then please do some reading, it's good for the soul.
Wow, a lot going on in this thread. Food for thought:
401ks vs. Pensions: Save for yourself or trust big brother: This is a tough topic. Arguably, 401ks were created not to benefit the average guy, but to eliminate the pension obligations of the 1%. Many of us find the need to eventually tap the 401k for everyday, meaning not enough for retirement and no pension to rely on.
Saving for college: Arguably saving for college is a zero sum game. You save and the first thing the FAFSA does is add it to what you can afford to pay. With less assets you are eligible for more aid, but for most privates that tops off from $10 to $18K, leaving the rest for debt. Debt which is too easy to get.
Jobs requiring degrees: The more degrees there are the lower the level of job requiring them. Paper is an easy way for a bureaucrat to cut off applications. If you are experienced and know you know your stuff but don't have a degreee you should not stop applying. More importantly, find the real hiring manager and chat her up.
Immigration policy? WAYYYYYY too touchy but I echo the sentiment of some of the other posters. Without LEGAL immigrants we would never be the powerhouse we are today, with all our foibles added in. Note the use of the term LEGAL. Let the strong survive and raise the tide for the rest of society. Length of time as a citizen is no determinant of quality of that citizen.
More students going to college? Fantastic, great for the country, keep it up. But the real issue is the industry that college education has become, or that we have caused it to become. Multi-million dollar facilities, and rising labor costs are something that must be paid for. But I wonder, if the easy money that Student Loans has become is the cause of schools not keeping their costs under control, much as medical and dental insurance have provided for uncontrolled health care expenses. How many dentists, doctors, and school administrators, and more likely the corporate entities they are a part of, have said, Hey, they can get the money, I need to make sure I'm getting more than my fair share while the getting is good.
Soapbox removed.
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401ks vs. Pensions: Save for yourself or trust big brother: This is a tough topic. Arguably, 401ks were created not to benefit the average guy, but to eliminate the pension obligations of the 1%. Many of us find the need to eventually tap the 401k for everyday, meaning not enough for retirement and no pension to rely on.
Saving for college: Arguably saving for college is a zero sum game. You save and the first thing the FAFSA does is add it to what you can afford to pay. With less assets you are eligible for more aid, but for most privates that tops off from $10 to $18K, leaving the rest for debt. Debt which is too easy to get.
Jobs requiring degrees: The more degrees there are the lower the level of job requiring them. Paper is an easy way for a bureaucrat to cut off applications. If you are experienced and know you know your stuff but don't have a degreee you should not stop applying. More importantly, find the real hiring manager and chat her up.
Immigration policy? WAYYYYYY too touchy but I echo the sentiment of some of the other posters. Without LEGAL immigrants we would never be the powerhouse we are today, with all our foibles added in. Note the use of the term LEGAL. Let the strong survive and raise the tide for the rest of society. Length of time as a citizen is no determinant of quality of that citizen.
More students going to college? Fantastic, great for the country, keep it up. But the real issue is the industry that college education has become, or that we have caused it to become. Multi-million dollar facilities, and rising labor costs are something that must be paid for. But I wonder, if the easy money that Student Loans has become is the cause of schools not keeping their costs under control, much as medical and dental insurance have provided for uncontrolled health care expenses. How many dentists, doctors, and school administrators, and more likely the corporate entities they are a part of, have said, Hey, they can get the money, I need to make sure I'm getting more than my fair share while the getting is good.
Soapbox removed.
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AS far as I'm concerned you and your soapbox are welcome anytime!
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AS far as I'm concerned you and your soapbox are welcome anytime!
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quote:Originally posted by RJM:
It means regardless of any feel good stories kids born in America and attending public school are getting robbed of a quality education due to the political agendas now creeping into schools. Others are emigrating to America and taking their place at the top universities and top technical and scientific jobs. Once the immigrants are citizens it's just padding the stats against the reality of the situation.
IMO, based on sending two kids to college, is there are kids who shouldn't be going to college but finding a trade school, joining the military, or finding a job.
I looked at the D1 school my son attends and 80% of the graduates are liberal art majors. The rest are engineering, math, sciences.
Too many kids aren't prepared for college going in. Grade inflation provides them with a 3.0 while accomplishing nothing. Then after not separating themselves from the pack they can't understand why they can't get a decent job. Colleges have become a factory for providing a needed piece of paper at a very high cost.
I was talking with a kid at Occupy Boston. He said it wasn't fair he has a college degree and can't find a job paying 50K. How's that for sense of entitlement? I asked his gpa. It was 3.0. I asked his major. It was philosophy. I asked him if he took any Latin in college since B.A. Philosophy is Latin for "I now have to spend more money getting a real degree in grad school."
I was talking with a kid at Occupy Boston. He said it wasn't fair he has a college degree and can't find a job paying 50K. How's that for sense of entitlement? I asked his gpa. It was 3.0. I asked his major. It was philosophy. I asked him if he took any Latin in college since B.A. Philosophy is Latin for "I now have to spend more money getting a real degree in grad school."
quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
IMO, based on sending two kids to college, is there are kids who shouldn't be going to college but finding a trade school, joining the military, or finding a job.
That's a horse**** thing to say...apparently dumb people should join the military.
quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
I looked at the D1 school my son attends and 80% of the graduates are liberal art majors. The rest are engineering, math, sciences.
So? Liberal art majors have a purpose, too. Problem-solving, the ability to evaluate situations from a variety of perspectives, etc. There's a reason even medical schools now like students with liberal arts degrees.
For one, I've hardly heard of a college that gives scholarships to international students. I'm sure these things exist, but if a non-US citizen wants to go to school in the United States, chances are they will have to pay for it on their own, regardless of their income. Perhaps there is aid in their home country or something like that, but there are just a few merit dollars available to international students and basically zero need-based dollars like are available to US citizens.
I also echo the sentiment that you need not chastise those that get non-trade, non-science degrees...AKA the liberal arts. Just because someone lazy majored in philosophy, this does not make the philosophy major useless. If the kid majored in philosophy and cannot articulate how his education could make him an asset to an employer, then he didn't deserve the degree. As someone mentioned with the rampant grade inflation common to universities (why didn't I go to a school with grade inflation?
), chances are the kid hardly did a thing while he was in college...
And unfortunately there is a lot of waste going on when it comes to college costs. I don't know how to fix the lack of affordability of a decent college education (I have my own opinions about what a decent undergraduate education entails). I will say that it certainly favors those with quite a bit of money. I was the kind of high school student that you'd be shocked had to pay for college and I'll be graduating with about 40k in debt, and I went with my cheapest option (not including junior colleges).
As far as what is required to get a job, I'm not sure if it is so clear cut. I think we want the degree to do the talking because we paid for it...but the truth is that nothing speaks louder than well, ourselves. There was a time way back when that degrees were rarer and you had to distinguish yourself not with a degree but a drive to succeed. I think being an enterprising, ambitious applicant that is not afraid to really take ownership of your hiring process is just as useful if not moreso than it ever was.
And we can all agree that more persistence is needed in improving the education available at the pre-college levels. I will say that I was more than prepared by my public education and the more I reflect on it, the more I realize the quality of teacher that was standard at my high school. This is in a small district that ranked among the lowest statewide in teacher's pay, by the way.
I also echo the sentiment that you need not chastise those that get non-trade, non-science degrees...AKA the liberal arts. Just because someone lazy majored in philosophy, this does not make the philosophy major useless. If the kid majored in philosophy and cannot articulate how his education could make him an asset to an employer, then he didn't deserve the degree. As someone mentioned with the rampant grade inflation common to universities (why didn't I go to a school with grade inflation?
), chances are the kid hardly did a thing while he was in college...And unfortunately there is a lot of waste going on when it comes to college costs. I don't know how to fix the lack of affordability of a decent college education (I have my own opinions about what a decent undergraduate education entails). I will say that it certainly favors those with quite a bit of money. I was the kind of high school student that you'd be shocked had to pay for college and I'll be graduating with about 40k in debt, and I went with my cheapest option (not including junior colleges).
As far as what is required to get a job, I'm not sure if it is so clear cut. I think we want the degree to do the talking because we paid for it...but the truth is that nothing speaks louder than well, ourselves. There was a time way back when that degrees were rarer and you had to distinguish yourself not with a degree but a drive to succeed. I think being an enterprising, ambitious applicant that is not afraid to really take ownership of your hiring process is just as useful if not moreso than it ever was.
And we can all agree that more persistence is needed in improving the education available at the pre-college levels. I will say that I was more than prepared by my public education and the more I reflect on it, the more I realize the quality of teacher that was standard at my high school. This is in a small district that ranked among the lowest statewide in teacher's pay, by the way.
quote:Originally posted by JPontiac:
For one, I've hardly heard of a college that gives scholarships to international students. I'm sure these things exist, but if a non-US citizen wants to go to school in the United States, chances are they will have to pay for it on their own, regardless of their income. Perhaps there is aid in their home country or something like that, but there are just a few merit dollars available to international students and basically zero need-based dollars like are available to US citizens.
I also echo the sentiment that you need not chastise those that get non-trade, non-science degrees...AKA the liberal arts. Just because someone lazy majored in philosophy, this does not make the philosophy major useless. If the kid majored in philosophy and cannot articulate how his education could make him an asset to an employer, then he didn't deserve the degree. As someone mentioned with the rampant grade inflation common to universities (why didn't I go to a school with grade inflation?
And unfortunately there is a lot of waste going on when it comes to college costs. I don't know how to fix the lack of affordability of a decent college education (I have my own opinions about what a decent undergraduate education entails). I will say that it certainly favors those with quite a bit of money. I was the kind of high school student that you'd be shocked had to pay for college and I'll be graduating with about 40k in debt, and I went with my cheapest option (not including junior colleges).
As far as what is required to get a job, I'm not sure if it is so clear cut. I think we want the degree to do the talking because we paid for it...but the truth is that nothing speaks louder than well, ourselves. There was a time way back when that degrees were rarer and you had to distinguish yourself not with a degree but a drive to succeed. I think being an enterprising, ambitious applicant that is not afraid to really take ownership of your hiring process is just as useful if not moreso than it ever was.
And we can all agree that more persistence is needed in improving the education available at the pre-college levels. I will say that I was more than prepared by my public education and the more I reflect on it, the more I realize the quality of teacher that was standard at my high school. This is in a small district that ranked among the lowest statewide in teacher's pay, by the way.
I would also point out that degree-holders are still well in the minority of adults. The very fact that someone had the persistence to finish a degree is telling in and of itself.
quote:Originally posted by Matt13:quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
IMO, based on sending two kids to college, is there are kids who shouldn't be going to college but finding a trade school, joining the military, or finding a job.
That's a horse**** thing to say...apparently dumb people should join the military.quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
I looked at the D1 school my son attends and 80% of the graduates are liberal art majors. The rest are engineering, math, sciences.
So? Liberal art majors have a purpose, too. Problem-solving, the ability to evaluate situations from a variety of perspectives, etc. There's a reason even medical schools now like students with liberal arts degrees.
Actually, bostonbulldogbaseball is right. Some kids have no business in college and are majoring in the space program. It's not to say that one day the shouldn't go back but if you're not college material and you're getting low grades, then what's the point. As for liberal arts, I think its a waste too. I told my kids that if they go to college, have a career in mind. Don't just go for the schooling. I'm spending a ton of loot to invest in them and all I ask from them is to spend my money wisely which means good grades and have a career plan. Since I'm getting no handouts or scholarships and my last name ain't Rockefeller, they get one shot at it and they must make the most of it.
As for becoming a tradesman or a soldier, there's nothing wrong with that and in fact, I've found these kids to grow up much faster than their college counterpartds who are only going so they don't have to face the real world that take these so called liberal arts courses.
For those who opted for military service, Just about every kid I know who went in were not much of college students and the military in a couple of short years transformed these unprepared boys into yong responsible men who learned a trade, got schooling in the military only to come out and go back to college with a purpose because they have a clearer idea what they want because of how they grew up in the military.
quote:Originally posted by Matt13:
I would also point out that degree-holders are still well in the minority of adults. The very fact that someone had the persistence to finish a degree is telling in and of itself.
That's a good point.
I recall someone complaining in my AP Calculus class in high school, something along the lines of "when am I going to need this in real life?"
My teacher, who had once been the head of a university mathematics department, had much to say. Among those things, he told us that there is a reason that your law school, business school, medical school, graduate schools generally want to see that you've passed calculus and it has nothing to do with your ability to do calculus; there is something to be said for thinking critically, perseverance, and doing things you don't want to do and still doing them well. I hesitated giving such a brief retelling of my teacher's response, but I think you get the point.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
As for liberal arts, I think its a waste too. I told my kids that if they go to college, have a career in mind. Don't just go for the schooling. I'm spending a ton of loot to invest in them and all I ask from them is to spend my money wisely which means good grades and have a career plan. Since I'm getting no handouts or scholarships and my last name ain't Rockefeller, they get one shot at it and they must make the most of it.
So, you're saying you don't understand what a liberal arts degree is...because it's not something someone does "just because."
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
As for becoming a tradesman or a soldier, there's nothing wrong with that and in fact, I've found these kids to grow up much faster than their college counterpartds who are only going so they don't have to face the real world that take these so called liberal arts courses.
Way to stereotype (not to mention, may I reiterate, the lack of understanding of liberal arts.) Liberal arts aren't "courses." They are programs of study with an emphasis in a particular realm while at the same time ensuring exposure to other disciplines.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
For those who opted for military service, Just about every kid I know who went in were not much of college students and the military in a couple of short years transformed these unprepared boys into yong responsible men who learned a trade, got schooling in the military only to come out and go back to college with a purpose because they have a clearer idea what they want because of how they grew up in the military.
Funny, actually having been in the military, I would say the opposite--there is a harder transition trying to adjust to a non-structured lifestyle (or, as you call it, "the real world") at age 22 or 26 than at 18. Because of the institutional culture, it stifles socialization with those outside of that culture.
zombywoof - I'm sure you realize that Army and Navy ARE liberal arts schools. I think you might not know what a liberal arts school is.
quote:Originally posted by Matt13:
So, you're saying you don't understand what a liberal arts degree is...because it's not something someone does "just because."
Way to stereotype (not to mention, may I reiterate, the lack of understanding of liberal arts.) Liberal arts aren't "courses." They are programs of study with an emphasis in a particular realm while at the same time ensuring exposure to other disciplines.
While I'm no expert on liberal arts by any stetch and I get that they are programs of study, what I would like to know is how marketable is a liberal arts major when he graduates. What jobs are out there waiting for the liberal arts majors so they can start gaining the benefits of their four year education? Not to mention in many cases, tens and hundrends of thousands in loans that need to be payed back upon graduating and trying to make a living.
quote:
Funny, actually having been in the military, I would say the opposite--there is a harder transition trying to adjust to a non-structured lifestyle (or, as you call it, "the real world") at age 22 or 26 than at 18. Because of the institutional culture, it stifles socialization with those outside of that culture.
I'm sure many struggle to adjust to a non-structured lifestyle. It's not going to be a one size fits all and what works for some won't necessarily work for others. I'm just going by who I know personally who floundered in college despite getting honors in HS and finding their way in the service and others who were such total screwups growing up that by going in the military was the best thing for them and it straightened them out.
As for myself, I got what would be equivalent to an associates degree as I have a degree in electronics technology. I went in with a plan and that I would work in the high tech industry when I graduated and that's what I have done. Therefore, if I appear to not be convinced or bowled over with liberal arts, you would need to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not knocking anyone who studies are in liberal arts but I just don't see the market value of liberal arts on their own merit. Peraps those who have graduated with liberal arts have gone on in fields where they've made good money and a good career directly from their liberal arts degree. I'm always willing to listen and learn.
quote:Originally posted by leftyshortstop:
zombywoof - I'm sure you realize that Army and Navy ARE liberal arts schools. I think you might not know what a liberal arts school is.
Never thought of it that way and if so, I just learned something new today. Thank you for pointing that out
For an interesting reference as to what are very basic tenets of a liberal arts education: thinking well (intellectual/academic curiosity would be an important manifestation of this), reasoning well, and writing well are main goals. You'd be surprised how neglected these things can be in vocation-oriented curricula and even in schools that we consider best in the world. I spoke with an intern recruiter that was sick of applicants from a certain set of top universities because they lacked so much in these areas, especially written communication.
A national standardized assessment and survey of these skills found that 36% of college graduates had no change in these skills from the time of high school senior to the time of graduation from undergraduate.
Similar research found that strength in these skills more strongly associated with lower unemployment, financial independence, and lower debt than was found with indicators like grade point averages, standardized tests scores, admission standards of college attended, college major, etc.
A national standardized assessment and survey of these skills found that 36% of college graduates had no change in these skills from the time of high school senior to the time of graduation from undergraduate.
Similar research found that strength in these skills more strongly associated with lower unemployment, financial independence, and lower debt than was found with indicators like grade point averages, standardized tests scores, admission standards of college attended, college major, etc.
quote:Originally posted by leftyshortstop:
zombywoof - I'm sure you realize that Army and Navy ARE liberal arts schools. I think you might not know what a liberal arts school is.
Not even a close analogy. If you join the military and get accepted to one of the academy's you are guaranteed a job as long as you have passing grades and no major infractions.
Now days a liberal arts degree equates to unemployment.
quote:Originally posted by Matt13:quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
As for liberal arts, I think its a waste too. I told my kids that if they go to college, have a career in mind. Don't just go for the schooling. I'm spending a ton of loot to invest in them and all I ask from them is to spend my money wisely which means good grades and have a career plan. Since I'm getting no handouts or scholarships and my last name ain't Rockefeller, they get one shot at it and they must make the most of it.
So, you're saying you don't understand what a liberal arts degree is...because it's not something someone does "just because."quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
As for becoming a tradesman or a soldier, there's nothing wrong with that and in fact, I've found these kids to grow up much faster than their college counterpartds who are only going so they don't have to face the real world that take these so called liberal arts courses.
Way to stereotype (not to mention, may I reiterate, the lack of understanding of liberal arts.) Liberal arts aren't "courses." They are programs of study with an emphasis in a particular realm while at the same time ensuring exposure to other disciplines.quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
For those who opted for military service, Just about every kid I know who went in were not much of college students and the military in a couple of short years transformed these unprepared boys into yong responsible men who learned a trade, got schooling in the military only to come out and go back to college with a purpose because they have a clearer idea what they want because of how they grew up in the military.
Funny, actually having been in the military, I would say the opposite--there is a harder transition trying to adjust to a non-structured lifestyle (or, as you call it, "the real world") at age 22 or 26 than at 18. Because of the institutional culture, it stifles socialization with those outside of that culture.
Matt113 you must be a liberal arts degree holder.
Actually my older son got out of college after 2 years (he had a 3.0 GPA but said he was burnt out) and is now serving as a medic in Afghanistan. So who is the horse's *** now?
My next older son has a full academic ride at a D1 university majoring in electrical engineering. He has a 4.0 GPA as a junior. So who is the horse's *** now?
Graduating with a history, psychology, or "fill in the blank liberal arts degree" will only increase the odds that you will be unemployed and living in the basement of your mommy's house.
I'm just glad I haven't paid hardly anything for my sons to go to college. My next son (13 yo) will be expected to get an academic ride first and athletic scholarship second.
Who says a kid has to attend a private university. There are a lot of great state institutions in the US.quote:Originally posted by Diamondthebest:
JPontiac is obviously a insider, he clearly understand the tough selection process of college App. Any 2012 parents will tell you a story about what they were going through. Although it's much easier than being drafted by MLB, but with over 2200 GPA and 3.97 GPA, you still got bounch of rejection letters, that's kind of scary, with this kind of score, No Ivys will admit you and those Top 20 private schools will ask you to pay for it in full. That's how hard it is. The good things we can afford it, we don't have to beg for money. As I said before I don't blame others for my son's own failure, If son was rejected by those top schools because his score was not good enough, it's his fault. If I can't give him the financial support needed to be in those Private Universities, that's my shame, I won't blame the system for that. The aid is for who really needs it, don't bother to even apply for it if you got enough. I don't complain Puff Daddy's son got the scholarship to go a college, maybe Puff will donate 100 times more to the school to support others in the future. Fortunately everything works fine for us, he got admitted and I will pay for it, nobody will take the blame, the system works.... hahaha...JMHO
You're assuming every kid is going to spend an additional two to four years in grad school. That's more expense.quote:Originally posted by JPontiac:quote:Originally posted by Matt13:
I would also point out that degree-holders are still well in the minority of adults. The very fact that someone had the persistence to finish a degree is telling in and of itself.
That's a good point.
I recall someone complaining in my AP Calculus class in high school, something along the lines of "when am I going to need this in real life?"
My teacher, who had once been the head of a university mathematics department, had much to say. Among those things, he told us that there is a reason that your law school, business school, medical school, graduate schools generally want to see that you've passed calculus and it has nothing to do with your ability to do calculus; there is something to be said for thinking critically, perseverance, and doing things you don't want to do and still doing them well. I hesitated giving such a brief retelling of my teacher's response, but I think you get the point.
Joining the Army or Navy is not attending West Point or Annapolis. But regardless of what kinds of degrees military grads obtain they come out of college with a guaranteed job.quote:Originally posted by leftyshortstop:
zombywoof - I'm sure you realize that Army and Navy ARE liberal arts schools. I think you might not know what a liberal arts school is.
The old school thought to a liberal arts degree was the graduate come out of college enlightened and a critical thinker. Now employers are looking for majors that lend themselves to a quicker start.
Even going back to when I graduated the companies I interviewed with (IBM, Xerox, Burroughs, NCR, etc.) started with 1) What's your major and 2) what's your gpa? The major needed to be a BSBA, or BA in math, econ or something related. The gpa had to be 3.3 or better. I had a BA in econ and a 3.4
My daughter recently graduated from college. She majored in forensic science with minors in criminology and french. With her grades (PBK) and being the state collegiate undergrad moot court champion she had no problem getting hired by a prestigious law firm for an internship. My son is majoring in finance and economics. He wants to work on Wall Street or similar.
Even going back to when I graduated the companies I interviewed with (IBM, Xerox, Burroughs, NCR, etc.) started with 1) What's your major and 2) what's your gpa? The major needed to be a BSBA, or BA in math, econ or something related. The gpa had to be 3.3 or better. I had a BA in econ and a 3.4
My daughter recently graduated from college. She majored in forensic science with minors in criminology and french. With her grades (PBK) and being the state collegiate undergrad moot court champion she had no problem getting hired by a prestigious law firm for an internship. My son is majoring in finance and economics. He wants to work on Wall Street or similar.
http://www.courierpress.com/ne...llege-degreesherppp/
^^^ the above is a useful discussion of some "applicability" of degrees in the liberal arts.
Let's clarify something. There are majors in the liberal arts and there majors called "liberal arts." Someone whose major is called "liberal arts" is not attending a liberal arts college. While liberal arts is often characterized by the breadth of study, a simple array of courses does not make a liberal arts education. Depth is as important as breadth and the entire point is missed without an actual major field. The idea is that you can have a broad amount of cursory knowledge across fields while finding a narrow field of knowledge in which you'll explore to incredible depths, all the while drawing on the other parts of the spectrum when necessary. It is important not to "major in the minors" so to speak. I can major in something that might seem useless to you, but it is in fact definitive proof that I can master anything.
^^^ the above is a useful discussion of some "applicability" of degrees in the liberal arts.
Let's clarify something. There are majors in the liberal arts and there majors called "liberal arts." Someone whose major is called "liberal arts" is not attending a liberal arts college. While liberal arts is often characterized by the breadth of study, a simple array of courses does not make a liberal arts education. Depth is as important as breadth and the entire point is missed without an actual major field. The idea is that you can have a broad amount of cursory knowledge across fields while finding a narrow field of knowledge in which you'll explore to incredible depths, all the while drawing on the other parts of the spectrum when necessary. It is important not to "major in the minors" so to speak. I can major in something that might seem useless to you, but it is in fact definitive proof that I can master anything.
Here's another useful link from the Wall Street Journal, lamenting the purported uselessness of Business majors: http://online.wsj.com/article/...323754019227394.html
A key quote:
A key quote:
quote:"Firms are looking for talent. They're not looking for content knowledge, per se," says Scott Rostan, founder of Training the Street Inc., which provides financial training courses for new hires at a number of investment banks. "They're not hiring someone just because they took an M&A class."
quote:Originally posted by Diamondthebest:Who says a kid has to attend a private university. There are a lot of great state institutions in the US.quote:Originally posted by RJM:
I'm not interested in my kids meeting the next Obama or Bush in college. I'm interested in them coming out of college and having good careers. My daughter is interning at one of the most prestigious law firms in the world out of a state university. She received a scholarship award from them before any Ivy Leaguer. She'll get to choose her law school. If she returns there after law school she'll make the same as any Ivy Leaguer at the same level.quote:Blame the USNEWS' College Ranking for it. Top 20 schools are mostly Ivys & Privates. Yes, public & state universities are much cheaper, but you won't have a chance to met the future Obama or Bush.......By the way, the first year salary after graduation is much higher.....JMHO
I expect my son at a state university to do just as well. I got into a highly ranked B school (at a state university) out of a state university. I didn't attend an Ivy and did quite well for myself. In fact, better than my three Ivy League cousins and their wives.
The three schools my kids and I attended are all in the USNEWS rankings. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Ivies. They're just not the only avenue to success.
quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
Not even a close analogy. If you join the military and get accepted to one of the academy's you are guaranteed a job as long as you have passing grades and no major infractions.
It wasn't an analogy. He was stating a fact--the service academies ARE liberal-arts institutions.
quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
Now days a liberal arts degree equates to unemployment.
No, it doesn't.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
You're assuming every kid is going to spend an additional two to four years in grad school. That's more expense.
That's going to happen with a lot of degrees, regardless of if they're liberal arts or not.
RJM,
Seriously, just stop...
......
Others are emigrating to America and taking their place at the top universities and top technical and scientific jobs. Once the immigrants are citizens it's just padding the stats against the reality of the situation.
I want to see the kids going through the public schools in this country getting the quality education. I want them to be prepared for college. I want them to be qualified for the top jobs when they graduate. Right now it's not the case. Kids are getting too much indoctrination and not enough education in our public schools.
......
You posted both of these things, and they are both outrageous!!!! If the kids aren't getting the education they need, they are not trying hard enough to do so!
Let me ask a question...
How many schools have one, just one teacher, who is willing to help a student outside of the classroom, on their time?
I'm sure the answer is almost every single school, public or private, in the nation.
I see countless times on this site people getting ripped to shreds because they WANT their kid to get more playing time, and they are probably not getting that playing time because they don't deserve it.
Yet, you are willing to say that someone who doesn't deserve a spot at a top school from the United States should get it just because they are from the United States.
This is outrageous the amount of hypocritical statements that some people on this site make blows my mind.
I do NOT know why working for something on the baseball field is completely different from working for something off of it.
That's probably the reason for the amount of Latin players in the MLB though huh? It is all because they are immigrants.
If you didn't reach somewhere you think you should have, you obviously didn't work hard enough!!
This is the EXACT reason foreign countries hate Americans, because they think we all have a sense of entitlement
On another note, making money in life isn't the statistic for being successful. Just if many of you forgot that point. If I had a dollar for every person I knew who at one time in their life made a decision based on money and were miserable, I would be a very wealthy man.
I'll just stop talking finish up my math with an secondary ed. endorsement at a liberal arts school and just laugh when I'm done.
Good Bye hsbbweb, I'll be back when people hop off their pedestal of entitlement!
Seriously, just stop...
......
Others are emigrating to America and taking their place at the top universities and top technical and scientific jobs. Once the immigrants are citizens it's just padding the stats against the reality of the situation.
I want to see the kids going through the public schools in this country getting the quality education. I want them to be prepared for college. I want them to be qualified for the top jobs when they graduate. Right now it's not the case. Kids are getting too much indoctrination and not enough education in our public schools.
......
You posted both of these things, and they are both outrageous!!!! If the kids aren't getting the education they need, they are not trying hard enough to do so!
Let me ask a question...
How many schools have one, just one teacher, who is willing to help a student outside of the classroom, on their time?
I'm sure the answer is almost every single school, public or private, in the nation.
I see countless times on this site people getting ripped to shreds because they WANT their kid to get more playing time, and they are probably not getting that playing time because they don't deserve it.
Yet, you are willing to say that someone who doesn't deserve a spot at a top school from the United States should get it just because they are from the United States.
This is outrageous the amount of hypocritical statements that some people on this site make blows my mind.
I do NOT know why working for something on the baseball field is completely different from working for something off of it.
That's probably the reason for the amount of Latin players in the MLB though huh? It is all because they are immigrants.
If you didn't reach somewhere you think you should have, you obviously didn't work hard enough!!
This is the EXACT reason foreign countries hate Americans, because they think we all have a sense of entitlement
On another note, making money in life isn't the statistic for being successful. Just if many of you forgot that point. If I had a dollar for every person I knew who at one time in their life made a decision based on money and were miserable, I would be a very wealthy man.
I'll just stop talking finish up my math with an secondary ed. endorsement at a liberal arts school and just laugh when I'm done.
Good Bye hsbbweb, I'll be back when people hop off their pedestal of entitlement!
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
Maybe going back to the days of more entry level jobs out of high school would be a good thing. It will get those not college material in the workforce instead of a college classrooom and they're only there because mom and dad want them there and have been told the only way to make it is to get a college education. Another benefit will be less kids n debt and at the same time become productive and valuable workers who's skill set will increase as well as their earning power as the years go by.
Awesome idea. Lets actually dumb-down our economy so that we can reduce the number of educated waiters with student loans. Hell, letting the mean-o capitalist free market structure drive our job requirements is just not fair to people with feelings who would like to have an income.
Hey you know, while we're at it, lets just establish a rule where EVERYBODY gets a job, regardless of GNP, and just take all the money and divide it equally among everyone.
And then, since we don't like immigrants competing with us for jobs, lets make a big huge fence, and not let anybody get in or out...
Boy, has this site changed.
quote:Originally posted by wraggArm:
Awesome idea. Lets actually dumb-down our economy so that we can reduce the number of educated waiters with student loans. Hell, letting the mean-o capitalist free market structure drive our job requirements is just not fair to people with feelings who would like to have an income.
Hey you know, while we're at it, lets just establish a rule where EVERYBODY gets a job, regardless of GNP, and just take all the money and divide it equally among everyone.
And then, since we don't like immigrants competing with us for jobs, lets make a big huge fence, and not let anybody get in or out...
Have no idea what point you're trying to make but isn't it better when the workforce is full of productive workers as opposed to unemployed educated people with tens of thousands of dollars in loans, not repaying them hoping the government teps in and bails those out. What about those entitlements? Can't pay your loan? No problem, the govt comes in and bails you out. I get the idea you're one of thosae who'd rather farm the work out overseas because of the cheap labor instead of keeping those jobs in the country and employed Americans which boosts the economy.
And another thing, for those all bent on this immigration thing, don't confuse immigrants with illegals. I should've been clearer on that.
Again, people are not defining liberal arts college correctly. Liberal Arts Colleges differ from National Universities in that they only offer undergraduate degrees with an emphasis on BA rather than BS awards. Here is Army's listing in US News and World Report:
Summary
United States Military Academy is a public institution that was founded in 1802. It has a total undergraduate enrollment of 4,686, its setting is suburban, and the campus size is 16,080 acres. It utilizes a semester-based academic calendar. United States Military Academy's ranking in the 2012 edition of Best Colleges is National Liberal Arts Colleges, 14. Its in-state tuition and fees are $0 (2010-11); out-of-state tuition and fees are $0 (2010-11).
Summary
United States Military Academy is a public institution that was founded in 1802. It has a total undergraduate enrollment of 4,686, its setting is suburban, and the campus size is 16,080 acres. It utilizes a semester-based academic calendar. United States Military Academy's ranking in the 2012 edition of Best Colleges is National Liberal Arts Colleges, 14. Its in-state tuition and fees are $0 (2010-11); out-of-state tuition and fees are $0 (2010-11).
You can go to a Liberal Arts College and recieve a BA in engineering or a BA in economics. Some offer a BA in accounting. The course of study does not define the term Liberal Arts College. Swarthmore for example offers a BS in Engineering inside its liberal arts framework. Most top schools liberal arts schools offer a BS in physics and computer science. Its the emphasis on undergraduate education that defines the term.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
Have no idea what point you're trying to make ...
Oh, sorry. Most of you know I'd much rather be a jackass, where a simpler point could have been made.
You suggested that we somehow increase the availability of entry-level jobs to people with no more than high-school education.
Since job requirements are set by employers, they alone are the people who make this determination.
Set aside government employers for now...
Private employers set their job specs based on what work they need performed, which is driven by how they compete for business in the free market.
So the only way to force enterprises to lower their standards for employee's education is to put government pressure on them, either legally or through tax incentives.
And there are actually people out there who think that this might de-incentivize people to pursue more education, because this might be similar to guaranteeing jobs at the expense of free-market forces like "Productivity". Some of those crazy people even have liberal arts educations. (oops...again with the sarcasm).
Some people out there might even consider this a form a Socialism (because it is).
So that's my point.
I know, I know, you're just saying that all those over-educated unemployed degenerates out there just need to get off their lazy asses and pick up a shovel, and the government needs quit pampering them and get them a job to do so they can be more productive.
So did Karl Marx.