Part of my current work includes research of private colleges... so, of course, I will occasionally glance at the baseball programs 
Just perused a NAIA roster in Arkansas... team is 8 games into the season, playing .500 ball, has 57 rostered players, 12 listed as redshirt. FIFTY SEVEN!!! Yes, they have a JV team but that full schedule has five dates.
Hmmm... wonder what their point of emphasis is?
Be careful out there, young recruits and parents of.
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They may be using sports for revenue generation. I know of a D3 that rostered thirty-two. A friend's son (top recruit there) said over thirty pitchers showed up for fall ball thinking they were going to walk on. There were two walk on spots available.
its important for recruits and their parents to hear what is actually being said and not the best possible internal spin on a potential situation.
Heck, that's nothing....actually just looked today....an NAIA near me has 94
If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
CaCO3Girl posted:If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
Different set of rules for sure, but that part isn't much different than the D1 11.7 and D2 9. You may be missing the intended message.
Buckeye 2015 posted:Heck, that's nothing....actually just looked today....an NAIA near me has 94
Just WOW, and I don't even have to look... I think I know which one that would be. That's the type of pattern I'm trying to warn about.
Some Spring roster numbers are horrible. Roster archives are usually available online for each school. Prospective players (and parents) should definitely do their research.
And I echo RJM...Fall rosters are even worse. This one is harder to research online as not all schools post a Fall roster. So understanding what the coach is offering becomes critical. The idea that a player will "walk on" in most situations is unrealistic in my experience. Our local D2 had over 90 players "on" the Fall roster this year. Yikes!
My boys were recruited by many coaches who offered a Fall roster spot and a chance to tryout for Spring. "Are you afraid of competition?" No they aren't. And no thank you. Given a choice, my sons wanted to know they were "loved" enough...If a coach likes a player enough to recruit them, then show me the money (or at least a guaranteed Spring roster spot on a roster of 30-35 size).
Got ya beat...d2 in SC...97 on the roster right now. Was about the same last year.
Cabbagedad...56 on the roster of the one your son is going against this weekend...just amazing really. At 40K plus with 9 scholarships max...WOW.
bigcubbiefan posted:Cabbagedad...56 on the roster of the one your son is going against this weekend...just amazing really. At 40K plus with 9 scholarships max...WOW.
huh, didn't even see that ... And they have every one of them in uniform in their team photo! Wiiiiide angle lens. At least that team is playing really good ball. Although, still, as one would expect, only 13 have more than 4 AB's in 8 games.
And another D2 with 97? Yeah, now the message is coming through!
BTW, Bigcubbie, Is that the series you mentioned that you may make a game?
I gotta top D3 with 64 right now. At least these guys with big numbers aren't hiding it. Some do, with separate "unpublished" JV rosters.
It's very difficult for a player (and parent) to compare himself to other players, especially at the D2/D3 level where many guys might only have 1 or 2 plus tools. Even harder to know a coaching staff's skill biases. Are you sure you can beat out the freshman who starts at your position today? Have you seen the committed kids who play your position? All things equal, or close to equal, I would always recommend going to a school with a smaller, more stable (year to year) roster.
Buckeye 2015 posted:Heck, that's nothing....actually just looked today....an NAIA near me has 94
I cn aguessbthe school. I know a young man at the school.
cabbagedad posted:Buckeye 2015 posted:Heck, that's nothing....actually just looked today....an NAIA near me has 94
Just WOW, and I don't even have to look... I think I know which one that would be. That's the type of pattern I'm trying to warn about.
The young man I know attending this insitution. He received money to go there. He may never see a varsity start. But he is very happy there. He gets money to there, he gets to play ball even if it is jv, and he likes the school. He played with my youngest in travel ball. They went in with his eyes open, and is happy with his choice after 2 years.
BishopLeftiesDad posted:cabbagedad posted:Buckeye 2015 posted:Heck, that's nothing....actually just looked today....an NAIA near me has 94
Just WOW, and I don't even have to look... I think I know which one that would be. That's the type of pattern I'm trying to warn about.
The young man I know attending this insitution. He received money to go there. He may never see a varsity start. But he is very happy there. He gets money to there, he gets to play ball even if it is jv, and he likes the school. He played with my youngest in travel ball. They went in with his eyes open, and is happy with his choice after 2 years.
Don't get me wrong....first class program....unbelievable complex and indoor facility and really good coaches. I have met the President of the school....they don't do anything half way. I wouldn't hesitate to have someone attend there....you just need to know what you're walking in to.
Buckeye 2015 posted:BishopLeftiesDad posted:cabbagedad posted:Buckeye 2015 posted:Heck, that's nothing....actually just looked today....an NAIA near me has 94
Just WOW, and I don't even have to look... I think I know which one that would be. That's the type of pattern I'm trying to warn about.
The young man I know attending this insitution. He received money to go there. He may never see a varsity start. But he is very happy there. He gets money to there, he gets to play ball even if it is jv, and he likes the school. He played with my youngest in travel ball. They went in with his eyes open, and is happy with his choice after 2 years.
Don't get me wrong....first class program....unbelievable complex and indoor facility and really good coaches. I have met the President of the school....they don't do anything half way. I wouldn't hesitate to have someone attend there....you just need to know what you're walking in to.
I completely agree. In this case, I believe many see a red flag, and beleve it or not I have yet to meet onenof their players that regrets their decision to attend. Which really surprised me. Not all coaches with large rosters are misleading. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are unhappy players. Every program has them, but I am not sure all coachea coaches are misleading.
Every player and parents need to go into a program with their eyes wide open. We say it often. But programs like these have their place.
cabbagedad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
Different set of rules for sure, but that part isn't much different than the D1 11.7 and D2 9. You may be missing the intended message.
While I agree 97 players would be a WOW concept, in your scenario there were 57 players. 12 are red shirted, so really 45 players. They have a V and a JV team, let's assume 23 on each team. If NAIA has 12.7 scholarships for Varsity that could be a 50% scholarship per kid right? If JV has a similar pot.....
Okay I guess I am missing the intended message because it doesn't sound bad to me at all. Is it playing time? I know 14u teams that have 25 kids on them, so the number of people on the team REALLY doesn't sound bad. Can you spell out the message for us naive folks? (And that was not said in a snide way, I honestly don't get the message.)
CaCO3Girl posted:cabbagedad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
Different set of rules for sure, but that part isn't much different than the D1 11.7 and D2 9. You may be missing the intended message.
While I agree 97 players would be a WOW concept, in your scenario there were 57 players. 12 are red shirted, so really 45 players. They have a V and a JV team, let's assume 23 on each team. If NAIA has 12.7 scholarships for Varsity that could be a 50% scholarship per kid right? If JV has a similar pot.....
Okay I guess I am missing the intended message because it doesn't sound bad to me at all. Is it playing time? I know 14u teams that have 25 kids on them, so the number of people on the team REALLY doesn't sound bad. Can you spell out the message for us naive folks? (And that was not said in a snide way, I honestly don't get the message.)
Your math is a little wrong. Don't forget that redshirted players can take up scholarship money, and not all programs have a V and JV team. So your back to diving up the 12.7 scholarships between the 57 players. In addition, the money is most likely divided up amongst the best players, not all the players. So you probably have some kids pulling in 1/2 scholarship or more while others are pulling in a lot less. When scholarship money is discussed with players its in terms of dollars and not percentages. So when the coach makes the offer he makes it in dollars (ie. I will give you $4,500 a year, not I will give you 25%). I believe NAIA will allow the coaches to break down the money in pretty much any amount so in reality there are probably many kids getting a small amount ($500 a semester) or no money at all. While two or three players are getting a lot of money.
What you are missing is the fact that a roster of 57 or 97 kids says that a program is over recruiting and allowing just about anyone to commit. The majority of these kids will either be worked out of the program or never see the field. Yes they can tell their friends they committed to play college ball, but in reality there is no real commitment back on the schools part. Its easy for an NAIA or D3 school to pretty much take anyone that contacts them about playing there. There is no risk for them as they have unlimited roster space and don't have to give any of the kids money. In addition many of these schools only provide them minimum required equipment (or make the kids pay for everything) so there are no budget implications to allowing anyone to come be on the team. Its kinda of a buyer beware situation. You commit to playing on a college team, but the school owes you nothing in this case. You show up for your first practice thinking you are going to be able to see the field and get playing time only to find out you are the 6th catcher on the roster and and the coach only intends to play the number 1 starter the entire time you attend school there. In addition you are being asked to pay for your uniforms and other equipment with no chance of ever seeing the field.
So, along the lines of this situation I have a player commitment story to share. Before I get into I want to say I am truly happy for the kids involved. They all have found a way to play baseball after high school. Please don't take this as me dissing on one of the kids...
My 2017's graduation class consists of 16 players, 6 of whom are PO's. As of right now we have had 6 players commit. 4 PO's and 2 position players. We will probably have a few more go on to play and have a couple who could but are choosing not to. Pretty strong class. If I were to rank the position players from 1 to 10, player #1 had committed to a strong west coast D1 program and is a potential late round draft pick. Legitimate player. Player #10 is the bull pen catcher, plays in the JV games and gets occasional mop up time in blow outs. An inning or two tops. Guess who the other player to commit is? Yep player #10. Based on some of the text messages that went around after the last signing day, I can tell that this is causing some of players #3 - #9 (I would put my son as #2, as does the coach) some issues.
What most of these parents are missing is the fact that player #10 has committed to a D3 program that over recruits every year. They carry about 45 - 50 players on their roster. They have very little funding for their program and most years struggle to win more then 10 games. Yes the kid is going to play college baseball, but is it the situation you want to be in? Most likely no, but again this kid has found a way to continue playing after college, so Im not sure he is looking at the bigger picture, just the fact that he gets to continue playing.
joes87 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:cabbagedad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
Different set of rules for sure, but that part isn't much different than the D1 11.7 and D2 9. You may be missing the intended message.
While I agree 97 players would be a WOW concept, in your scenario there were 57 players. 12 are red shirted, so really 45 players. They have a V and a JV team, let's assume 23 on each team. If NAIA has 12.7 scholarships for Varsity that could be a 50% scholarship per kid right? If JV has a similar pot.....
Okay I guess I am missing the intended message because it doesn't sound bad to me at all. Is it playing time? I know 14u teams that have 25 kids on them, so the number of people on the team REALLY doesn't sound bad. Can you spell out the message for us naive folks? (And that was not said in a snide way, I honestly don't get the message.)
Your math is a little wrong. Don't forget that redshirted players can take up scholarship money, and not all programs have a V and JV team. So your back to diving up the 12.7 scholarships between the 57 players. In addition, the money is most likely divided up amongst the best players, not all the players. So you probably have some kids pulling in 1/2 scholarship or more while others are pulling in a lot less. When scholarship money is discussed with players its in terms of dollars and not percentages. So when the coach makes the offer he makes it in dollars (ie. I will give you $4,500 a year, not I will give you 25%). I believe NAIA will allow the coaches to break down the money in pretty much any amount so in reality there are probably many kids getting a small amount ($500 a semester) or no money at all. While two or three players are getting a lot of money.
What you are missing is the fact that a roster of 57 or 97 kids says that a program is over recruiting and allowing just about anyone to commit. The majority of these kids will either be worked out of the program or never see the field. Yes they can tell their friends they committed to play college ball, but in reality there is no real commitment back on the schools part. Its easy for an NAIA or D3 school to pretty much take anyone that contacts them about playing there. There is no risk for them as they have unlimited roster space and don't have to give any of the kids money. In addition many of these schools only provide them minimum required equipment (or make the kids pay for everything) so there are no budget implications to allowing anyone to come be on the team. Its kinda of a buyer beware situation. You commit to playing on a college team, but the school owes you nothing in this case. You show up for your first practice thinking you are going to be able to see the field and get playing time only to find out you are the 6th catcher on the roster and and the coach only intends to play the number 1 starter the entire time you attend school there. In addition you are being asked to pay for your uniforms and other equipment with no chance of ever seeing the field.
BTW, my above scenario assumes a fully funded program. Many NAIA schools are not fully funded.
What is the issue? Parents are having hisses because a player decided where he wanted to go to school and POSSIBLY play baseball?
It's really no ones business why people do what they do. Not every situation is ideal for everyone. If he got a full academic scholarship, and will have little college debt, that is awesome!
JMO
joes87 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:cabbagedad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
Different set of rules for sure, but that part isn't much different than the D1 11.7 and D2 9. You may be missing the intended message.
While I agree 97 players would be a WOW concept, in your scenario there were 57 players. 12 are red shirted, so really 45 players. They have a V and a JV team, let's assume 23 on each team. If NAIA has 12.7 scholarships for Varsity that could be a 50% scholarship per kid right? If JV has a similar pot.....
Okay I guess I am missing the intended message because it doesn't sound bad to me at all. Is it playing time? I know 14u teams that have 25 kids on them, so the number of people on the team REALLY doesn't sound bad. Can you spell out the message for us naive folks? (And that was not said in a snide way, I honestly don't get the message.)
Your math is a little wrong. Don't forget that redshirted players can take up scholarship money, and not all programs have a V and JV team. So your back to diving up the 12.7 scholarships between the 57 players. In addition, the money is most likely divided up amongst the best players, not all the players. So you probably have some kids pulling in 1/2 scholarship or more while others are pulling in a lot less. When scholarship money is discussed with players its in terms of dollars and not percentages. So when the coach makes the offer he makes it in dollars (ie. I will give you $4,500 a year, not I will give you 25%). I believe NAIA will allow the coaches to break down the money in pretty much any amount so in reality there are probably many kids getting a small amount ($500 a semester) or no money at all. While two or three players are getting a lot of money.
What you are missing is the fact that a roster of 57 or 97 kids says that a program is over recruiting and allowing just about anyone to commit. The majority of these kids will either be worked out of the program or never see the field. Yes they can tell their friends they committed to play college ball, but in reality there is no real commitment back on the schools part. Its easy for an NAIA or D3 school to pretty much take anyone that contacts them about playing there. There is no risk for them as they have unlimited roster space and don't have to give any of the kids money. In addition many of these schools only provide them minimum required equipment (or make the kids pay for everything) so there are no budget implications to allowing anyone to come be on the team. Its kinda of a buyer beware situation. You commit to playing on a college team, but the school owes you nothing in this case. You show up for your first practice thinking you are going to be able to see the field and get playing time only to find out you are the 6th catcher on the roster and and the coach only intends to play the number 1 starter the entire time you attend school there. In addition you are being asked to pay for your uniforms and other equipment with no chance of ever seeing the field.
Okay, yes, that was what I was missing, thank you!
TPM posted:What is the issue? Parents are having hisses because a player decided where he wanted to go to school and POSSIBLY play baseball?
It's really no ones business why people do what they do. Not every situation is ideal for everyone. If he got a full academic scholarship, and will have little college debt, that is awesome!
JMO
Agree with you. just relating the story. As I said I only wish the best for the kid, just a story being related to the current discussion that seem to illustrate the point.
Two take aways here. First if we didn't already realize that D2 and D3 sports can be tuition gatherers then I think we buried our head in the sand long ago. Second this further illustrates the point that if you just want to say you played college ball you can. Using the word 'play' loosely of course. But good for that kid. Maybe he has a love for the game and just is happy practicing and being around it.
I may be wrong about this, but the impression I got from a couple of different NAIA schools, was that they could offer institutional funds in addition to athletic funds or in place of athletic funds.
2020dad posted:Two take aways here. First if we didn't already realize that D2 and D3 sports can be tuition gatherers then I think we buried our head in the sand long ago. Second this further illustrates the point that if you just want to say you played college ball you can. Using the word 'play' loosely of course. But good for that kid. Maybe he has a love for the game and just is happy practicing and being around it.
I wonder, being cynical, if some D3 admissions and baseball programs essentially have quotas for how many players they will have on a team, especially if they have a JV program as well. I mean, private D3s are expensive so a baseball program with 60+ kids brings in a lot of money in terms of tuition...
CaCO3Girl posted:cabbagedad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
Different set of rules for sure, but that part isn't much different than the D1 11.7 and D2 9. You may be missing the intended message.
While I agree 97 players would be a WOW concept, in your scenario there were 57 players. 12 are red shirted, so really 45 players. They have a V and a JV team, let's assume 23 on each team. If NAIA has 12.7 scholarships for Varsity that could be a 50% scholarship per kid right? If JV has a similar pot.....
Okay I guess I am missing the intended message because it doesn't sound bad to me at all. Is it playing time? I know 14u teams that have 25 kids on them, so the number of people on the team REALLY doesn't sound bad. Can you spell out the message for us naive folks? (And that was not said in a snide way, I honestly don't get the message.)
CaCO,
Joe covered a lot of things pretty well. The primary message is, as others have also said, go in with eyes wide open.
Most HS players (and their parents) that actively go through the recruiting process are not aware of some of the motivating factors behind the objectives of the RC and HC to get them to come to their school. Most HS players who actively go through the recruiting process are spending a great deal of time and money (mostly parents' money), are making a significant commitment and many sacrifices throughout their HS years because they think they want to play college baseball. If successful, they are about to take the leap into an even much deeper level of commitment. Very few of those players have the vision or goal to go through all that to play on a JV squad at a small private school that has five dates on their schedule. Sometimes, those games are against a JC program or, worse yet, a college club program where the players may be committing about 10% of the amount of time and money toward baseball as compared to that college player. And, even though that player ends up on the bottom half of that huge roster or mostly on JV, they are still required to put in the same sacrifice and commitment as the twelve position players actually seeing the field. They are still out of the work force and social scene that other college students are afforded, and still struggle to put sufficient time toward their studies.
Many of these small private schools use athletics as one of the primary drivers of enrollment, often with student athletes comprising close to half of the total. Clearly, it benefits the school to have large rosters of athletes paying some significant portion of tuition.
Of course, the coaches want good players. They want a winning team. They love the game and want to compete. They are going to try to get the best players they can. But there is also likely pressure from administration to compete so that they can draw more students, so they can get more tuition. Bigger rosters means more tuition. Do you think those coaches WANT to manage a roster of 50+ players? Even if redshirted, there is still participation, reps, personal problems, paperwork, etc. Often, those that play JV are still involved in some level with the V squad. As example, If there are five small privates in the region, they are often all competing for the same regional athletic and academic talent. If one school is appealing and they can carry a big roster, they effectively lower the quality of good players available to their four regional competitors - on the field and at the tuition turnstile.
These are some of the things recruits must be aware of... eyes open. They will (hopefully) encounter RC's who will compliment them, pay them attention and try to get them to come to their school, to their program. They will tell them some version of "we think you can compete for a spot". What does that mean? Where, more specifically, do they see the player fit and why? What is the school's history with players such as you? All that work. That commitment. That dream. Is it realistic here or am I forking over tens of thousands of $, working my A$$ off for another four years and playing five dates of JV ball at the local HS field? Or, one of two other less-than-ideal scenarios - lost in a sea of 90 fall roster guys and cut in December or kept at the bottom depths of a large roster, never to see the field. At these schools with huge rosters, simple math will dictate that more fall into one of these undesirable categories than those that will see playing time and contribute.
OK, after painting that bleak picture, believe it or not, I will say that I am a HUGE fan of college baseball. I embrace the opportunity to help my players find a place to play and get their education. But I try my best to help them look in the right places and ask the right questions - to have eyes wide open... and trying to do a little of the same for everyone here.
That's the message.
I think there was something similarly discussed a while back.
Most NAIA, D3, D2 as well as Juco programs are all over recruited. The most athletic money goes to those who will make an impact immediately, juco or D1 transfers.
All the others basically provide revenue.
They can keep as many as they wish on roster. FWIW, more programs are instituting JV programs for revenue, not so much for much else.
joes87 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:cabbagedad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
Different set of rules for sure, but that part isn't much different than the D1 11.7 and D2 9. You may be missing the intended message.
While I agree 97 players would be a WOW concept, in your scenario there were 57 players. 12 are red shirted, so really 45 players. They have a V and a JV team, let's assume 23 on each team. If NAIA has 12.7 scholarships for Varsity that could be a 50% scholarship per kid right? If JV has a similar pot.....
Okay I guess I am missing the intended message because it doesn't sound bad to me at all. Is it playing time? I know 14u teams that have 25 kids on them, so the number of people on the team REALLY doesn't sound bad. Can you spell out the message for us naive folks? (And that was not said in a snide way, I honestly don't get the message.)
Your math is a little wrong. Don't forget that redshirted players can take up scholarship money, and not all programs have a V and JV team. So your back to diving up the 12.7 scholarships between the 57 players. In addition, the money is most likely divided up amongst the best players, not all the players. So you probably have some kids pulling in 1/2 scholarship or more while others are pulling in a lot less. When scholarship money is discussed with players its in terms of dollars and not percentages. So when the coach makes the offer he makes it in dollars (ie. I will give you $4,500 a year, not I will give you 25%). I believe NAIA will allow the coaches to break down the money in pretty much any amount so in reality there are probably many kids getting a small amount ($500 a semester) or no money at all. While two or three players are getting a lot of money.
What you are missing is the fact that a roster of 57 or 97 kids says that a program is over recruiting and allowing just about anyone to commit. The majority of these kids will either be worked out of the program or never see the field. Yes they can tell their friends they committed to play college ball, but in reality there is no real commitment back on the schools part. Its easy for an NAIA or D3 school to pretty much take anyone that contacts them about playing there. There is no risk for them as they have unlimited roster space and don't have to give any of the kids money. In addition many of these schools only provide them minimum required equipment (or make the kids pay for everything) so there are no budget implications to allowing anyone to come be on the team. Its kinda of a buyer beware situation. You commit to playing on a college team, but the school owes you nothing in this case. You show up for your first practice thinking you are going to be able to see the field and get playing time only to find out you are the 6th catcher on the roster and and the coach only intends to play the number 1 starter the entire time you attend school there. In addition you are being asked to pay for your uniforms and other equipment with no chance of ever seeing the field.
My son was offered to his D-1 in percentage, and in dollars.
rynoattack posted:joes87 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:cabbagedad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
Different set of rules for sure, but that part isn't much different than the D1 11.7 and D2 9. You may be missing the intended message.
While I agree 97 players would be a WOW concept, in your scenario there were 57 players. 12 are red shirted, so really 45 players. They have a V and a JV team, let's assume 23 on each team. If NAIA has 12.7 scholarships for Varsity that could be a 50% scholarship per kid right? If JV has a similar pot.....
Okay I guess I am missing the intended message because it doesn't sound bad to me at all. Is it playing time? I know 14u teams that have 25 kids on them, so the number of people on the team REALLY doesn't sound bad. Can you spell out the message for us naive folks? (And that was not said in a snide way, I honestly don't get the message.)
Your math is a little wrong. Don't forget that redshirted players can take up scholarship money, and not all programs have a V and JV team. So your back to diving up the 12.7 scholarships between the 57 players. In addition, the money is most likely divided up amongst the best players, not all the players. So you probably have some kids pulling in 1/2 scholarship or more while others are pulling in a lot less. When scholarship money is discussed with players its in terms of dollars and not percentages. So when the coach makes the offer he makes it in dollars (ie. I will give you $4,500 a year, not I will give you 25%). I believe NAIA will allow the coaches to break down the money in pretty much any amount so in reality there are probably many kids getting a small amount ($500 a semester) or no money at all. While two or three players are getting a lot of money.
What you are missing is the fact that a roster of 57 or 97 kids says that a program is over recruiting and allowing just about anyone to commit. The majority of these kids will either be worked out of the program or never see the field. Yes they can tell their friends they committed to play college ball, but in reality there is no real commitment back on the schools part. Its easy for an NAIA or D3 school to pretty much take anyone that contacts them about playing there. There is no risk for them as they have unlimited roster space and don't have to give any of the kids money. In addition many of these schools only provide them minimum required equipment (or make the kids pay for everything) so there are no budget implications to allowing anyone to come be on the team. Its kinda of a buyer beware situation. You commit to playing on a college team, but the school owes you nothing in this case. You show up for your first practice thinking you are going to be able to see the field and get playing time only to find out you are the 6th catcher on the roster and and the coach only intends to play the number 1 starter the entire time you attend school there. In addition you are being asked to pay for your uniforms and other equipment with no chance of ever seeing the field.
My son was offered to his D-1 in percentage, and in dollars.
Its been a while since I dealt with this, but Im assuming its something along the lines of, "we are offering you $9,000 which equates to 50%". If I remember correctly (been 30 years since I played college sports) the actual scholarship paperwork is in dollars not percentages.
Depends on the college . . . some offer $$$.$$ others offer %. When son was getting offers, to get a comparison, we converted $$$ to % and visa versa to get a better idea for how the different offers compared. And one had to take into account just EXACTLY what was included in either the $$$ and % amount (e.g. books, food, housing, stipen, etc.)
My 2018 has mostly been offered in terms of %. However one of the offers was in $$ but followed up with what that meant as a %.
TPM posted:I think there was something similarly discussed a while back.
Most NAIA, D3, D2 as well as Juco programs are all over recruited. The most athletic money goes to those who will make an impact immediately, juco or D1 transfers.
All the others basically provide revenue.
They can keep as many as they wish on roster. FWIW, more programs are instituting JV programs for revenue, not so much for much else.
Yeah. I took one of my 2017's to visit a Pacific Northwest DIII last summer and, after showing him around, he warned him how big the roster was and that, currently, he would have to start on JV.
Truman posted:Depends on the college . . . some offer $$$.$$ others offer %. When son was getting offers, to get a comparison, we converted $$$ to % and visa versa to get a better idea for how the different offers compared. And one had to take into account just EXACTLY what was included in either the $$$ and % amount (e.g. books, food, housing, stipen, etc.)
Dollars don't include cost of tuition, room and board, percentages do. This should be discussed when offered.
joes87 posted:rynoattack posted:joes87 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:cabbagedad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:If I remember...and I'm probably wrong....doesn't NAIA have 12.7 scholarships for Varsity? Don't they also have a pot of money for JV? I know they have a different set of rules than the average bear.
Different set of rules for sure, but that part isn't much different than the D1 11.7 and D2 9. You may be missing the intended message.
While I agree 97 players would be a WOW concept, in your scenario there were 57 players. 12 are red shirted, so really 45 players. They have a V and a JV team, let's assume 23 on each team. If NAIA has 12.7 scholarships for Varsity that could be a 50% scholarship per kid right? If JV has a similar pot.....
Okay I guess I am missing the intended message because it doesn't sound bad to me at all. Is it playing time? I know 14u teams that have 25 kids on them, so the number of people on the team REALLY doesn't sound bad. Can you spell out the message for us naive folks? (And that was not said in a snide way, I honestly don't get the message.)
Your math is a little wrong. Don't forget that redshirted players can take up scholarship money, and not all programs have a V and JV team. So your back to diving up the 12.7 scholarships between the 57 players. In addition, the money is most likely divided up amongst the best players, not all the players. So you probably have some kids pulling in 1/2 scholarship or more while others are pulling in a lot less. When scholarship money is discussed with players its in terms of dollars and not percentages. So when the coach makes the offer he makes it in dollars (ie. I will give you $4,500 a year, not I will give you 25%). I believe NAIA will allow the coaches to break down the money in pretty much any amount so in reality there are probably many kids getting a small amount ($500 a semester) or no money at all. While two or three players are getting a lot of money.
What you are missing is the fact that a roster of 57 or 97 kids says that a program is over recruiting and allowing just about anyone to commit. The majority of these kids will either be worked out of the program or never see the field. Yes they can tell their friends they committed to play college ball, but in reality there is no real commitment back on the schools part. Its easy for an NAIA or D3 school to pretty much take anyone that contacts them about playing there. There is no risk for them as they have unlimited roster space and don't have to give any of the kids money. In addition many of these schools only provide them minimum required equipment (or make the kids pay for everything) so there are no budget implications to allowing anyone to come be on the team. Its kinda of a buyer beware situation. You commit to playing on a college team, but the school owes you nothing in this case. You show up for your first practice thinking you are going to be able to see the field and get playing time only to find out you are the 6th catcher on the roster and and the coach only intends to play the number 1 starter the entire time you attend school there. In addition you are being asked to pay for your uniforms and other equipment with no chance of ever seeing the field.
My son was offered to his D-1 in percentage, and in dollars.
Its been a while since I dealt with this, but Im assuming its something along the lines of, "we are offering you $9,000 which equates to 50%". If I remember correctly (been 30 years since I played college sports) the actual scholarship paperwork is in dollars not percentages.
That is correct. His scholarship paper was in dollars.
Of the current D1s where the interest level toward my son seems highest, the rosters are +/- 30 with a handful of red shirts each. We are looking at year to year rosters to see whether players stick around for 4 years, to check for level of commitment from both the player and the school.
Other than that, what should we be looking for in terms of red flags?
CmassRHPDad posted:Of the current D1s where the interest level toward my son seems highest, the rosters are +/- 30 with a handful of red shirts each. We are looking at year to year rosters to see whether players stick around for 4 years, to check for level of commitment from both the player and the school.
Other than that, what should we be looking for in terms of red flags?
Perhaps redundant with what you already know, but Majors of current students, JUCO transfers in, maybe a position specific look at the roster?
CmassRHPDad posted:Of the current D1s where the interest level toward my son seems highest, the rosters are +/- 30 with a handful of red shirts each. We are looking at year to year rosters to see whether players stick around for 4 years, to check for level of commitment from both the player and the school.
Roster size isn't really an issue with D1 since there is a hard limit of 35.
Fall roster size can be an issue with D1. Not limited there... It's good to know whether a player is entering a tryout meat market or is really being given a chance to compete in the Spring.
CMass, you've already highlighted things like roster churn and Go44 has noted a few other good things to look at.
We just had the opportunity for a do over with our oldest in the recruiting process, this time as a transfer. One thing we did not do enough of the first time around was get references on the coaching staff from former/current players and families, watch practices and games, etc.
Seeing how a coaching staff operates in game and practice situations is really important IMHO. It's very different being recruited when everyone is on their best behavior. My oldest guy loved a certain coach who was a back slapper and very engaging in the recruiting process. At practices and in games, he was a screamer and a control freak who didn't let his assistants coach. We were stunned.
Similarly, how much a coaching staff emphasizes and supports academics and personal issues is really unknown when you're in the recruiting process. Lots of lip service the first time around. This time we got references and we rigorously vetted the coaching staffs on their approaches.
No guarantees of course. But we were much better at our homework this time around.
My son has an offer from a D2. Not a great offer, but it's his first, and maybe his only, and it's a good school, so if that's the worst thing that happens, we're good. Looking at their roster, there are 35 players numbered, then seven not numbered. What does that mean? And how many pitchers would you look for on that size of a roster? Does it matter how many players letter? This particular school indicates how many letters each player has earned. I'm assuming that if you have a senior who has lettered two to three times that's a good thing?
By any chance are the non numbered players freshman or transfers into the program. This early in the year they may not have had numbers assigned.
As far as lettering goes, it is hard to tell with out knowing the requirements for lettering. Some are easier than others.
Number of pitchers can vary depending on their schedule. My sons conference was a pitcher heavy conference, the teams in the conference generally carried more pitchers than like programs, because 4 conference games are played each weekend so you need a minimum of four weekend starters plus a weekday starter, for midweek games sometimes 2. Plus relievers. Plus area of the country. East coast and northern schools play a condensed schedule. So they need more pitchers.southern and western schools may play the same number of games spread over a longer period. They need fewer pitchers.
So there are too many variables, for one answer to fit all programs. So 10 pitchers may be plenty for one school but pose arm care issues for another.
The numbers are only part of the equation. Look at yearly rosters and stats. How many pitchers get meaniful innings. What is the turn over every year? How many players leave every year.
