Movement in the swing....

Blue,

I agree 100%. My biggest problem with trying to teach this has been the hitter's willingness to trust the movement during live pitching. The problem multiplies the faster the Pitcher is. It's like they are afraid that the Pitcher is going to throw it by them, when in reality this movement makes it much more difficult for a Pitcher to do that. Actually, I think once it is mastered and a hitter has matured, it becomes impossible to throw a fastball by them. I'm not saying they won't miss one, but it won't be because they are late.

I guess the rub for me is the phrase, "A lot of movement." When ever I think in terms of extremes, I don't agree. While I also agree with the Hanson Principle, I realize that MLB Players are where they are because they have athletic "gifts" most other players don't have. Therefore, I see flaws in telling a young player, "here is Sheffield and look how he does it. Now go do it."

I don't think anyone proposes that hitters have no movement. I've always taught a basic principle not unlike the concept described as "pulling the bow back." See Video:



Given the athletic talents of some younger players and their degree of coordination, I think that too much movement is a recipe for disaster. I also think that an equal number of MLB players can be noted that don't have much movement at all:






I guess then, the trick is to assess early on those that do have the ability to use excessive movement with success. It then behoove that player's coach to not fool with success. Again, as Coach May often points out, a cookie cutter hitter mentality by a coach often isn't in the player's best interest.

Before anyone accusses me of cropping any of these clips, I use what I can find on the internet. I have an extensive collection of video but won't post anything on the internet from my collection. I apologize but it is what it is.

I just teach from "launch" to "contact".... I think what is being discussed here is pre-swing movements... i don't mess with a players "personal style." But they can't do it while we are working together... because there is too much "more" room for error....

if a player can do a bunch of rhythmic pre-swing stuff and still get hands/body in the right "launch" position, then I could care less... when it is so much movement that it affects his ability to get to where he needs to be (to launch swing)then will discuss it with player...

movement is fine, it is called inertia...

keep in mind there are prob a gillion kids who tried to hit (pre-swing stance/movement) like sheffield, julio franco, and ichiro and we have never heard of any of them.... why because they failed... was it because they took Franco's stance and tried to emulate him, but weren't the "athlete" he was?? don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
I guess the rub for me is the phrase, "A lot of movement." When ever I think in terms of extremes, I don't agree. While I also agree with the Hanson Principle, I realize that MLB Players are where they are because they have athletic "gifts" most other players don't have. Therefore, I see flaws in telling a young player, "here is Sheffield and look how he does it. Now go do it."

I don't think anyone proposes that hitters have no movement. I've always taught a basic principle not unlike the concept described as "pulling the bow back." See Video:



Given the athletic talents of some younger players and their degree of coordination, I think that too much movement is a recipe for disaster. I also think that an equal number of MLB players can be noted that don't have much movement at all:






I guess then, the trick is to assess early on those that do have the ability to use excessive movement with success. It then behoove that player's coach to not fool with success. Again, as Coach May often points out, a cookie cutter hitter mentality by a coach often isn't in the player's best interest.

Before anyone accusses me of cropping any of these clips, I use what I can find on the internet. I have an extensive collection of video but won't post anything on the internet from my collection. I apologize but it is what it is.

Coach,

Like I've said before, the length of the tip and length of the stride need to coincide with each other. Just as in pitching, one needs to be "on time" with front foot plant and max stretch with hands (upper/lower stretch) when it is time to explode. How one gets there will depend on their athletic ability and body type. I prefer a small tip and stride ala Ted Williams or Bonds, but some of that is a hitters style. The key to me is that the bat is still moving backwards when it's time to go.

I like the que you use "pull the bow back" although I may differ in which direction I prefer to see it pulled. I do know that it is hard for some kids to get the Hamilton, Bonds, Williams direction of tip down and they have to go to more of a Johnson type of tip and load.

quote:

Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
I just teach from "launch" to "contact".... I think what is being discussed here is pre-swing movements... i don't mess with a players "personal style." But they can't do it while we are working together... because there is too much "more" room for error....

if a player can do a bunch of rhythmic pre-swing stuff and still get hands/body in the right "launch" position, then I could care less... when it is so much movement that it affects his ability to get to where he needs to be (to launch swing)then will discuss it with player...

movement is fine, it is called inertia...

keep in mind there are prob a gillion kids who tried to hit (pre-swing stance/movement) like sheffield, julio franco, and ichiro and we have never heard of any of them.... why because they failed... was it because they took Franco's stance and tried to emulate him, but weren't the "athlete" he was?? don't know.

When I teach young hitters (Sophomores and under) I teach only launch to contact as well. I want them to FEEL the difference when the hips are used properly. If a hitter comes to me that already uses their hips pretty well I will tweak that if needed and then show them a few pre-swing options as well as approach.

Coach,

One thing I noticed in these three hitters was that they have very little if any coiling of the hips. Do you think that could be why they don't use a bigger tip? Could it be that the reason some guys started using a bigger tip was so that their foot and hands were "on time" at go? Obviously a running start with the hips is going to give that individual more power, but it will also make it longer before the hips can get fully open.

I'd like to get thoughts on this from Bluedog as well?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

One thing I noticed in these three hitters was that they have very little if any coiling of the hips.

I consider the hips to be separate of each other....A front hip and a rear hip....And, they act independently of each other, IMO.....

So, when someone says hips, I don't relate well to that....

I, also, don't buy into the connection with scapula load stuff....

I believe in stretching the hands against the front hip.....To accomplish this, the front hip needs to open in the stride while the back hip is loading (coiling)....The front hip and the back hip are stretching against each other....



I suppose it's safe to say I don't buy into the learning how to rotate stuff, either....

You don't see Edmonds loading his back hip while turning in his front hip? With out a doubt, the front hip moves first, but IMO, the back hip and front hip are working together once his front heel lands.

Again, IMO, the lower body needs to be turning clockwise (for a lefty) while the hands are loading against that action before go, no matter how it is accomplished.

powertoallfields, I haven't ignored your question. I am swimming upstream at the moment but will get back to your question.

In my opinion,

I think a lot of coaches fail to differentiate between the “swing” and the “pre-swing” a lot of times. In my opinion, the “swing” should have sharp violent movement but every great hitter I have studied has a much slower, movement/tempo in his “stance”, “move back” (“show your hip pocket when the pitcher shows you his”), and “stride” (“foot forward while hands move back”).

Don’t get me wrong, I think all 3 are “fundamental” and maximize the swing’s power, but exactly how each hitter goes about performing each one is “style”. IE, laid back Chipper Jones is nice and easy. High-strung Gary Sheffield is the opposite. Both are great hitters but both perform all 3 very differently..

That’s why I discuss all of the above with every hitter I work with and stay away from cues like “quick hands” and landing “on time” as they have a tendency to speed up the pre-swing which is unnecessary. In my opinion.

THop

Now I have seen detailed and labeled cross section anatomy of the hip viewed in 3 planes and compared those images with equivalent MRI in up to 20 slices. But have never seen anyone learn to get the opposite sides of the hips to stretch against each other on command....

As far as I know, The deep hip outward rotators muscle group is made of 6 muscles. They are obturator internus, obturator externus, piriformis, gemellus superior, gemellus inferior, and quadratus femoris.

They all act as synergists to each other, meaning they all assist each other in their movements.

JMO

quote:

But have never seen anyone learn to get the opposite sides of the hips to stretch against each other on command....

That's a cue with a tough phrasing.

But, I understand what he means. As the hitter is striding forward, he is "opening" the front hip by rotating the front leg (rotate into foot plant), while the rear hip/leg maintains it's load/tension (ride the rear leg) until the backside rotates. It's more noticable in some swings than others.

wayback-

exactly.

that was my point... if someone on here is actually trying to players better... general is much better than trying to talk about links that can hardly be understood by a young player....

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:






Coach,

One thing I noticed in these three hitters was that they have very little if any coiling of the hips. Do you think that could be why they don't use a bigger tip? Could it be that the reason some guys started using a bigger tip was so that their foot and hands were "on time" at go? Obviously a running start with the hips is going to give that individual more power, but it will also make it longer before the hips can get fully open.

I'd like to get thoughts on this from Bluedog as well?

Powertoallfields, I don't use the "tip" as an instructional cue. I know you and others do. I simple get a similar result from the "pulling the bow back" analogy as well as a simple drill with a bungee cord. You see, some want to talk hands and perhaps a part of that would be tip. I'd rather use the "pulling the bow back" analogy along with the bungee exercise and let the bat do what it is going to do. I think this makes for better setting of connection. Of course, that is my opinion and you could rightfully ask what I know since I admit I'm an "ex-expert."

Regarding the hips of those hitters I cut and pasted video of, being "on time" for them doesn't require a big tip. Still they produce power and decent batting average. Many hitters don't feel comfortable with too much motion. Remember, for some it is controlled hostility or intent but for others it is rushing. In my opinion it is a matter of personal preference. I was fortunate to get to sit in on one of Rolen's hitting sessions, although I was certain far removed from him, but did hear him comment on rushing.

Powertoallfields, one of my former players was drafted this year. He didn't like movement. He did fine. However, on that same team, we had a little s****** third baseman that had to have that circular, dropping hands, ... movement. Both got to certain points on time and with the intent of hitting the heck out of the ball. You have to let some horses run. Others, they do fine at their favorite gait.

If I might, I'd like to point out one other observation from the Edmonds clip below. Take a look at his left elbow. In the swing process, and you notice that the elbow movment backwards signals the loading of the scapula?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

In the swing process, and you notice that the elbow movment backwards signals the loading of the scapula?

If elbow moving backwards is scapula loading, is the load lost when the elbow moves down?

Quote by CoachB25:

If I might, I'd like to point out one other observation from the Edmonds clip below. Take a look at his left elbow. In the swing process, and you notice that the elbow movment backwards signals the loading of the scapula?



I think many hitters DO load the scapula, but I believe they do it to delay the hands from moving forward. I think many of the movements hitters make are moves to counteract some other movement. Advanced level hitters have extremely powerful core muscles and turn their hips very quickly. That explosive move requires them to do something to delay the upper body and hands from moving too soon. I believe scapula loading, bat tipping, front hip coiling and high leg lift are all included in these delay type movements.

Do I think every top level hitter has to have all of those movements? No way, but most have at least one.

quote:

Powertoallfields, one of my former players was drafted this year. He didn't like movement. He did fine.

Coach,

I have seen many top level High School and College players that had almost no movement in their pre-swing, but I haven't seen many do that in the MLB. I've also seen many of those younger players fail miserably when they got to Minor League ball. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I just can't think of any.

I just think the batspeed and short to zone swing that is required to hit MLB pitching requires stretch of upper body to lower body and some sort of delay type movement for the hands. But, like you always say, this is JMO.

Powertoallfields, when I say didn't like a lot of movement, I'd refer you back to the video I first showed. He'd be more in tune with those swings.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

In the swing process, and you notice that the elbow movment backwards signals the loading of the scapula?

If elbow moving backwards is scapula loading, is the load lost when the elbow moves down?

I'd reference the old argument from a few years ago here where the point was raised as to what a person would see if MLB hitters didn't wear their shirts and took BP. If you'll recall, the video used the most at that time and in that argument was the Guerrero video.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Powertoallfields, when I say didn't like a lot of movement, I'd refer you back to the video I first showed. He'd be more in tune with those swings.

Coach,

Yeah, I like Morneau's swing. He gets very good stretch of his front shoulder by, as you say, "pulling the bow back". His delay movement is a slight coil in his front hip that he holds throughout the stride until toe touch. He then turns both knees to the ball and keeps that stretch by starting the bathead rearward. It is a very sweet, calm, well balanced swing. A lot of hitters can't relax this much while waiting for the pitch and that is their need for more movement. It helps the shoulders relax before go.

bluedog

Can you say it without pictures?

use your own words amd mind for just once. Please !!!

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

His delay movement is a slight coil in his front hip that he holds throughout the stride until toe touch.

Not what I see....

quote:

His delay movement is a slight coil in his front hip that he holds throughout the stride until toe touch. He then turns both knees to the ball and keeps that stretch by starting the bathead rearward.

Where does this stretch that he keeps come from?

It comes from turning his lower half or belly button to contact position while keeping the top half from turning at all (keeping top half closed, bottom half open or twisting the rubberband) until right before go with the hands. The top half will start to chase the bottom half just before the top hand takes the bathead to the ball.


You don't see him leading slightly with his back pocket and the side of his knee?

This is very good discussion. I appreciate it. Others?

quote:

There is lag in the swing...However, I don't agree with you in how the lag is created and what the lag is about....

There are actually 2 lags in top players' swings, IMO. One is a lag/delay of the upper body and the second is the lag/delay of the top hand.

Robinson is loading his hands up and back as his hips (or Pelvis if that is better for you) rotates away from them at toe touch and the heel is planted by the rotation of the hips.

He has way more weight on his front foot in this clip than I like with very little weight shift, but his size and strength allowed him to get away with it I guess. I'd rather see a game clip to see if he had the same motion, but I'll take your word for that. His bottom hand looks too far out in front on this swing too, like he miss timed the pitch. I would say he used his core and glutes mainly to power his swing. By the way, his stride and swing is very similar to Morneau's except his is longer (the stride that is).

quote:

I gotta tell you, I don't consider the belly button part of the lower half....

I use the bellybutton reference for my students because you can't turn the pelvis without turning the bellybutton and it is a good visual or reference point for me and them.


I like the clip of Giles, because his swing is very much what I try to teach younger kids.

quote:

He has way more weight on his front foot in this clip than I like with very little weight shift, but his size and strength allowed him to get away with it I guess.

Many of the old-time great hitters were front foot hitters.....

I don't think you can say they didn't shift their weight well....They had lots of weight shift...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

He has way more weight on his front foot in this clip than I like with very little weight shift, but his size and strength allowed him to get away with it I guess.

Many of the old-time great hitters were front foot hitters.....

I don't think you can say they didn't shift their weight well....They had lots of weight shift...

Yes, both of these hitters had good weight shift, but in the clip you provided of Robinson he doesn't and that's why I would like to see a game clip to see if he did the same things then.

It's funny, these clips are pretty much the "pull the back knee drill" I use from the John Cohen DVD.

Just not sure how successful that approach would be against todays pitching. I'd actually have to see someone do it before I would believe it, but I'm not saying it's impossible.

quote:

Just not sure how successful that approach would be against todays pitching.......

I hear alot of people say this....

One thing I'm sure of is, the old-time great hitters were as good, or better, than today's great hitters....Which leads to this....

If someone dismisses their swing as being different technique than today's hitters, I think they're making a mistake....

The only way someone can truly understand what great hitters do, they must discover how the old-time and modern day great hitters, both, created and effected weight shift....I believe they do/did it the same way.....

You see a difference...I don't....You're looking at the knees...I'm not....

Kid Nichols....

They all have movement but in differnet fashion---the body moves as one unit

quote:

The only way someone can truly understand what great hitters do, they must discover how the old-time and modern day great hitters, both, created and effected weight shift....I believe they do/did it the same way.....

You see a difference...I don't....You're looking at the knees...I'm not....

The weight shifts to and from the same body parts, but how it is shifted is entirely different. One is done by rotation and the other is done by back to front motion (mostly in their strides).

You talk about being centered, these guys are not centered except in their stance. All of their weight is shifted to the back leg and then shifted to the front leg and that is why they would have trouble hitting a change-up, sinker, splitter or good 12/6 curveball, when the Pitcher has a mid 90s + fastball. The weight has to start shifting too soon, it's just too slow. It would be ground ball city, IMO or maybe just ugly strike outs.

I believe this is why the "no stride" technique came about.

quote:

The weight shifts to and from the same body parts, but how it is shifted is entirely diferent.

You got the part in bold wrong....

Shoeless Joe, Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Mantle, Aaron, McGuire, Pujols, Bonds, and Manny all create and effect weight shift the same way....

quote:

One is done by rotation and the other is done by back to front motion (mostly in their strides).

Weight shift is neither entirely back to front or rotation and it happens, both, during and after the stride....

In the top clip the weight is shifted to the front leg causing his momentum to go forward which he uses to help swing the bat (which is evident in the fact that he ends up with all of his weight on his front leg). In the bottom clip maybe only 25% of his weight stays on his front leg during the swing and he is not using that momentum to help him swing (which is evident in the fact that he ends up on his back leg in his finish). He's using his weight transfer to stretch his core against his hands and he uses that as his momentum to help him swing.

You can use both techniques to chop a tree down, hit a fastball or BP pitch very effectively, but a good change-up or 12-6 curveball????? I'm just not sure.

dog-

nice clips, but you still, as usual, didn't answer question of how to teach someone to stretch the front hip against the back on command... and two of your pics i didn't see that happening anyways....

blue-
go back to your dark apt room and look for whatever kind of site you look for and find all your pics... bottom line, you still haven't told me how to teach it and how to teach it/"command" it when a youth kid is swinging....

teachers teach...

you just say this, say that and believe it is true and that that is what should be happening in a swing but have no idea how to teach it to someone so they can be successful...

you're ability to teach is around the "knowledge" section on Bloom's Taxonomy... do what you can to elevate your ability to be a qualified teacher and your students, if you even have any, will get the rewards....