My imagination, or is NAIA frowned upon?

It seems it depends what the priority is.  The vast majority of players want to play D1 because of its status, the chance to play in Omaha, get drafted, etc.  But then there is a lot discussion among the D2, D3 and NAIA about the quality of play and the academic credentials of the schools.  Those three seem to get grouped equally with the view that depending on the league and school, the quality of play can be equal amongst those levels.

I agree that it seems there is less support for the NAIA option, but I think most emphasize here that it is about picking the right school for the right major and finding the social fit over which division can offer the most scholarship money.

This is a broad, generalized statement that does not hold true for every institution. It is really just an assumption, but to many D3 = high academic and NAIA = low academic.

With D3's, I know that some are high academic, and some  are not. I don't know enough about the variety of different NAIA schools to have a solid opinion.

Son starts practice today at NAIA school in Indiana.  School is ranked:

#2: Ranking in the number of graduates going on to earn doctorates among all Indiana institutions when institutional size is taken into account. 

#3: Ranking for accounting graduates for the CPA exam passing rate in Indiana, and top 12 nationally for a program of our size

100%: pass rates by nursing students to become certified RNs

92%: students who applied to medical school in the past five years were accepted.

Just this week, ranked third among the “Top 100 National Baccalaureate Colleges” by Washington Monthly magazine, which considers civic engagement, research and social mobility.

All for a fraction of the cost of a high end New England D3.

Also, in reference to the other thread talking about College Sports - almost 30% of the students on campus are on intercollegiate sports rosters.  

I think there are gems like these all across the U.S., if people can get past the top 10 US News rankings.

I've never felt like any level of baseball or college has been frowned upon here. The high level baseball teams and high academic colleges are definitely held in high regard, but I don't think people look down on the others (which comprise the vast majority). There are 952 NCAA baseball schools, and only 184 NAIA baseball schools (with the vast majority of those at < 5,000 undergrads). I think NAIA is discussed less than NCAA mostly due to the number of teams, and the general population's lack of familiarity with those schools.

I agree with all the comments above.  Not all D1's are equal, likewise for D2, D3 & NAIA.  As JDFarmer points out, there are some amazing academic schools that happen to choose to participate in NAIA.  Likewise, there are some great academic schools that choose to participate in D1 athletics, but don't compete at that level.  You'd need to take it on a case by case basis.

You are correct in stating that from an athletics perspective, true or not, it is perceived that D1 is better, simply because it's D1.  But you'd be amazed (or maybe not) at the ignorance that accompanies those beliefs.  I have a neighbor who continues to insist that their son is attending his D3 on a full Lacrosse scholarship.  Yes, they have a kid there and don't even understand that his scholarship is combination of needs and academic with NO athletic money.  But they LOVE sharing that their kid has a full athletic ride because of the supposed status that gives them.

I do get a kick out of the kids that tweet that they are "blessed to continue playing at D1 XYZ University".  I always think, if you have to tell everyone that they're D1 . . . . . .

Nuke83 posted:

I do get a kick out of the kids that tweet that they are "blessed to continue playing at D1 XYZ University".  I always think, if you have to tell everyone that they're D1 . . . . . .

LOL!!!!!

I think another factor is that the NAIA is The Wild West when it comes to athletic programs in general. They have fewer restrictions than NCAA and even NJCAA.  And you see a wide, wide range in terms of quality, scholarships available, etc.  Two NAIA teams we encountered at multi-school camps/showcases last fall both had full varsity and JV squads, each with full rosters, giving them a total of 70-80 kids in the program.  One of those was apparently very well funded.  According to that coach, everyone on the JV got "x" athletic money.  Everyone on varsity got "y".  He didn't say how much it was, but just because of the roster size he either had a lot of money or was spreading it very, very thin.

Bottom line.  NAIA is just a different animal.

An NAIA school near me has one of the nicest facilities I've ever seen....turf field, amazing indoor facility and ALOT of kids from the Dominican and Puerto Rico....among the 90+ on the fall roster   Someone's gotta pay for all that stuff lol

I asked a coach this question a while ago, and he said it's really a matter of preference. Some baseball people love NCAA, some love NAIA. Just depends on what you want.

Perception.

To the young player (pre-teen, early teen) dreaming of playing college and MLB, the more specific vision of the college aspect of that dream is what they have seen on TV... major D1 ball, CWS, etc.  Most are rarely exposed to D2, D3 or NAIA baseball.

To the casual observer and often the players and parents going through the sorting phase of the recruiting process for the first time... they think in simple terms, in sequential order, which is D1, then D2, then D3, then NAIA.  There is often little understanding of the overlap or of the quality of play at some of the better programs of the non-D1 schools. Furthermore, there is the perception of additional "downgrade" with the NAIA not being affiliated with the NCAA.

There are more schools at the NAIA and D3 level that field non-competitive teams, so the overall perception of those levels is affected.

Also, the perception exists that D3's are stronger academically than NAIA's.  In many cases this is true, in some it is not.  

The truth is that NAIA can be an ideal scenario for so many who don't quite fit the major/mid-major D1 mold.  With the combination of available athletic scholy $ along with much of the same academic and needs based $, the value can be very good.  Because they are "downstream" from D1, the recruiting process is later and fits a broader range of junior and senior HS players who are still developing both  physically and with regard to skills.  

 Here in Ohio we used to have one D2 program, the rest were D1 or D3 with a good number of NAIA. NAIA in Ohio used to be a very real option for Baseball players. Ohio Dominican, for example was a very respected team. So Many students athletes in Ohio used to end up at the NAIA level. That was a decade ago. Many of those schools have transitioned to D2, so now D2 has nine division 2 schools. Most of those schools moved to the Gliac. For a while we were down to  or three NAIA programs like Shawnee state. Recently it picked up a few more, but it was mostly smaller schools that played only in the NCCAA, such as Ohio Christian and Lourdes university. So the level of of competition has dropped a bit as these new programs came in, and some of the old standbys moved to D2. 

I know the school that Buckeye2015 speaks of. I also know a player who accepted a scholarship there. A very nice young man and our families are good friends. He has not cracked varsity yet, but he is only going into his sophomore year. But I do not anticipate him playing varsity this year. The essence of a crafty lefty, but he has never had the velocity to play at the college level. But he is enjoying the team and playing JV. Buckeye is right it is a huge roster. The coach does a good job of keeping his whole team engaged. Some of the stuff he does is quite unique.

But I digress. In a nut shell the more respected schools that used to be the mainstay of NAIA in Ohio have moved to D2 , and while there are still some very good NAIA teams left, Their reputation has taken a bit of a hit. I would not be surprised if this type of migration, from NAIA to D2 hit other parts of the country at one time or other, but if it did I can se why it may have taken a hit. 

Buckeye 2015 posted:

An NAIA school near me has one of the nicest facilities I've ever seen....turf field, amazing indoor facility and ALOT of kids from the Dominican and Puerto Rico....among the 90+ on the fall roster   Someone's gotta pay for all that stuff lol

 

If it is the one I think you are talking about, That field makes me crazy with the red infield turf. On other hand, one of their assistants comes from my city and graduated with my oldest son. Great young man

And a great video of when the coach asked his GF to be his bride, including the whole team.

chefmike7777 posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

An NAIA school near me has one of the nicest facilities I've ever seen....turf field, amazing indoor facility and ALOT of kids from the Dominican and Puerto Rico....among the 90+ on the fall roster   Someone's gotta pay for all that stuff lol

 

If it is the one I think you are talking about, That field makes me crazy with the red infield turf. On other hand, one of their assistants comes from my city and graduated with my oldest son. Great young man

And a great video of when the coach asked his GF to be his bride, including the whole team.

I believe we are all on the same page as far as what team this is. 

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

chefmike7777 posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

An NAIA school near me has one of the nicest facilities I've ever seen....turf field, amazing indoor facility and ALOT of kids from the Dominican and Puerto Rico....among the 90+ on the fall roster   Someone's gotta pay for all that stuff lol

 

If it is the one I think you are talking about, That field makes me crazy with the red infield turf. On other hand, one of their assistants comes from my city and graduated with my oldest son. Great young man

And a great video of when the coach asked his GF to be his bride, including the whole team.

I believe we are all on the same page as far as what team this is. 

I'm sure we are.....good guys.  I hosted a 15U/16U tourney for a couple years a few summers ago.  Before they had turf.....their field was the nicest in the area then.  They let me use their field for nothing.....until a monsoon came thru.  They just wanted to see players in action and get a chance to take a look.  They just hired a new PC who is very good....they are doing big things....and are very well funded!!!   The president there doesn't do anything half-way....it's all or nothing

I think if you did a survey here, you would find that not too many players actually ended up at a D1 let alone one of the top 25.

I have been here for a long time, and I will repeat what I feel. That D1 experience IS NOT for everyone.  That big D1 experience is for only a few.  For some people, anything less than that D1 becomes not an option.  I find this is often the case until the recruiting actually begins.

Keep in mind that the reason why you go to college is for an education and to major in something other than baseball.   Most players learn that very quickly, I know mine did and he struggled many times on the field and in the classroom his first year.  He even considered a change at one point.  

I don't think anyone here has ever thought of any program as the red headed stepchild here, but rather that is a perception that is preconceived by many, because they just don't know about the positives of any other programs besides D1.  In fact as pointed out, people don't understand who gets what at most programs, and very shocked when they find out there is rarely any full athletic scholarships in baseball.

There are certain NAIA programs that are better than many DI programs.  It can be a great opportunity for some.  The NAIA college I coached back in the day had more talent than the DI colleges in our state, 3 DI teams back then.  We had more draft picks, than all three DIs combined.  Two of our pitchers made the Big Leagues, two others got to AAA.  Truth is, we could offer more scholarship money than the DIs. Also, we had an easier time getting kids admitted.  Someone mentioned one advantage being less stringent rules than NCAA and that is true.

TPM posted:

I think if you did a survey here, you would find that not too many players actually ended up at a D1 let alone one of the top 25.

I have been here for a long time, and I will repeat what I feel. That D1 experience IS NOT for everyone.  That big D1 experience is for only a few.  For some people, anything less than that D1 becomes not an option.  I find this is often the case until the recruiting actually begins.

Keep in mind that the reason why you go to college is for an education and to major in something other than baseball.   Most players learn that very quickly, I know mine did and he struggled many times on the field and in the classroom his first year.  He even considered a change at one point.  

I don't think anyone here has ever thought of any program as the red headed stepchild here, but rather that is a perception that is preconceived by many, because they just don't know about the positives of any other programs besides D1.  In fact as pointed out, people don't understand who gets what at most programs, and very shocked when they find out there is rarely any full athletic scholarships in baseball.

Very true, and excellent perspective.  I bolded what I thought were some particularly important parts for students and parents going through the process to understand.

Misconceptions abound in the athletes that I interact with and I try to inform them to the best of my ability.

I live in an area with very few D2 programs and a ton of NAIA.  My 2016 was a football player and was 'offered' by several NAIA schools.  What we found were recruiting classes of 50+ and a half ride still left us with higher expenses than a state school with no scholarship money at all.  One of the schools had some ridiculously high number like 95% of the kids were there on athletic or arts scholarships.  It made me think that families were more concerned with the status of being a college athlete than the actual educational/financial part and these schools were capitalizing on it big time. 

What we have learned from 2016's recruiting process is that the FAFSA people should consult with our accountant as he is clearly hiding money somewhere and we aren't sure where it is.  As a result, 2018 will not have the option of NAIA or D3.  While he is a better student than 2016 he is just a pretty good student and not exceptional.  And we can't afford them.  And we aren't willing to pay more than is needed for an education to call our son a college baseball player.  The positive is that it has really helped us to narrow our focus to the one dream school that we would be willing to do whatever it takes and the more realistic schools that fit him academically and financially.  From there we can try to figure out where he fits athletically. 

LivingtheDream posted:

As a result, 2018 will not have the option of NAIA or D3.  While he is a better student than 2016 he is just a pretty good student and not exceptional.  And we can't afford them.  And we aren't willing to pay more than is needed for an education to call our son a college baseball player. 

Living, I hope that you won't count out any private schools without at least completing their online Net Price Calculator (usually on the FA page), or talking to their Financial Aid department. Many private schools can get you close to their public school competition with grants and scholarships, even for non-exceptional students.

Right here at my back door ( no pun intended) is a NAIA school that is very well respected in the baseball world. Cumberland University in Lebanon Tn..  If any player gets a chance to play for Coach Woody Hunt  consider yourself lucky.  I was at a hot stove meeting last winter at Lipscomb University...  Five D1 coaches including Corbs were listening to what Coach Hunt had to say. 

worth a read.

http://www.tennessean.com/stor...em-diamond/21661881/

http://wilsonpost.com/cus-wood...fame-honor-cms-73662

I share Living's concerns about the costs of the privates exceeding the in-state public schools even after receiving substantial aid.  We are going through this issue soon with my 2017, as I am sure FASFA will not be kind to us either. 

But if my 2017 winds up at an NAIA or D3 school and it costs a little bit more than the in-state option, he won't be going there for the "status" of playing college baseball.  It will be because he will get a great education, hopefully finish in four years (a rarity with some public schools that don't have enough of the core class options), and continue to build friends and relationships formed with the teamwork that comes from being on the baseball team. 

I view the fact that a high percentage of kids at the D3's and NAIA's play some sport as a big positive for so many reasons, not the least of which is the shared student experience of having to balance schoolwork with athletics.  Call me old fashioned, and maybe naïve in this new tech world, but a student who can succeed in the classroom while also playing a team sport for four years is going to be a more attractive hire to a lot of employers.  And that is the ultimate end game to all of this anyway.

LivingtheDream posted:

 

What we have learned from 2016's recruiting process is that the FAFSA people should consult with our accountant as he is clearly hiding money somewhere and we aren't sure where it is.  

I feel you.  The FAFSA says our expected family contribution is more than half of my salary.

I guess their expectations and mine differ slightly...

I read here once the following, something to this.  I forget who it was that wrote it but I agree.

Go where you would love to go to school and where they love you back. 

Rob T posted:

LivingtheDream posted:

 

What we have learned from 2016's recruiting process is that the FAFSA people should consult with our accountant as he is clearly hiding money somewhere and we aren't sure where it is.  

I feel you.  The FAFSA says our expected family contribution is more than half of my salary.

I guess their expectations and mine differ slightly...

They do understand that we don't get paid even half of what our companies pay us right?  Take out taxes, take out medical, take out 401K, take out all the other little things....etc.

Would it be wrong to report my take-home pay as my salary?

In looking at the cost of privates, and comparing to in-state public costs, I look for a certain break even point on the cost of attendance (tuition, room and board). I don't throw in every other possible cost as these are variable such as books, insurance, fees, travel, personal, etc....

In my state, there is a range for in-state costs for tuition, room, and board. But the range is somewhere between $13,000 per year for the least expensive public schools to right at $19,500 per year for the most expensive. A typical private may run from $32,000 up to $40,000 per year for tuition, room and board.

So, what do I mean by breaking even on a private school? If your kid can attend a private that he or she wants to attend, for the same costs as the most expensive in-state public that  he or she could gain admittance to, then that is breaking even. This is my terminology, slant or justification. Regardless if the kid is an athlete or just wants to go to a smaller, private school as a student.

So, if you're kid can gain admittance to the public that costs $19,500 per year but wants to attend the private that costs 39,500 per year, then the kid will hopefully receive $20,000 in a combination of either athletic scholarships, institutional scholarships, outside scholarships, need base funds, or financial aid.

This is just my quick and dirty formula in looking at costs. Has nothing to do with the reputation of the schools, programs offered, or quality of instruction.

Stafford's approach makes perfect sense and is a great way to simplify it, particularly to the student so they can understand the cost trade-off.  But of course a critical aspect to that is the assumption that your kid is going to graduate at the same time in both situations.  The break-even point changes significantly if the private school route achieves graduation in four years versus the public school choice that takes five.  In California, for popular majors, it is more and more common for a kid to take 5 years to graduate at a UC or popular CSU school.

Here is a great article from Forbes that shows there is a difference in the graduation rates at four years for public versus private schools.  And the article does a nice job of explaining why private schools are motivated to have a high graduation rate at four years versus public schools going to five years to graduate:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sp...degree/#45b2db752af5

And one other aspect of playing sports is that most of the schools allow the athletes to register first so that they are sure to get their core courses confirmed and in time periods that allow practice and games in the afternoon.

In our case we would consider a private if it was a really good fit and it made financial sense.  In the break even example above you also have to take into account any aid you may get from the public school.  One trick we noticed with the private schools recruiting my older son was that they liked to include loans in the financial aid package to make it look like they were giving more money than they actually were.  He is saving $15k this year by going to a local juco and living in an apartment with friends over the D3 that wanted him to play football and living on campus.  After his 2 years at juco he can decide where he wants to go for his last 2 years with the knowledge that he has $30k less in loans than he would have otherwise had.  That is a lot of money.  In fact, he will have no loans because he can keep his job to pay his rent and we can afford to pay the tuition.  This juco also has top notch athletic programs so if 2016 wanted to try to walk on next year it might be an option and 2018 would be fortunate to be able to play baseball there because they are a power at their level.   I understand that there are kids who are looking at specialized or highly academic programs for whom juco is just not an option.  But for kids who are average students or really unsure about what they want to do it can be a great option. 

LivingtheDream posted:

In our case we would consider a private if it was a really good fit and it made financial sense.  In the break even example above you also have to take into account any aid you may get from the public school.  One trick we noticed with the private schools recruiting my older son was that they liked to include loans in the financial aid package to make it look like they were giving more money than they actually were.  He is saving $15k this year by going to a local juco and living in an apartment with friends over the D3 that wanted him to play football and living on campus.  After his 2 years at juco he can decide where he wants to go for his last 2 years with the knowledge that he has $30k less in loans than he would have otherwise had.  That is a lot of money.  In fact, he will have no loans because he can keep his job to pay his rent and we can afford to pay the tuition.  This juco also has top notch athletic programs so if 2016 wanted to try to walk on next year it might be an option and 2018 would be fortunate to be able to play baseball there because they are a power at their level.   I understand that there are kids who are looking at specialized or highly academic programs for whom juco is just not an option.  But for kids who are average students or really unsure about what they want to do it can be a great option. 

Big supporter of the JUCO route.  It makes sense for many reasons, cost being one of them.  If you matriculate from a nice four year university, there is no parenthetical mention on a diploma of (went to a JUCO first two years).

I asked my son why he wanted to go to the D3 (expensive). They want me and I want them. Using the above breakeven formula we are coming out ahead. Financial aid made it less painful and he will graduate under my rule of "borrow up to the price of a decent new car".  He will come in under that and will drive his 1998 cool ass paid for Grand Cherokee til he has no debt.