Son and I went to a NAIA Conference tournament this weekend. I apologize if I insult anyone, but the play wasnt much better than our local 6A high school and the pitching was actually much worse. Is this common for NAIA generally? The teams we were watching were highly ranked as well. Defense was pretty good...offfense pretty poor and pitching woeful. Just wondering if today was typical or an anomaly.
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The quality of play at different levels is discussed here often. There is a wide range at all levels. Of course, the average is lesser at D3 and NAIA than D1. I was listening to a podcast today that was an interview with one of the better HS programs here in California. I think this coach had 8 kids committed to D1 schools, I think 3 were pitchers. So, yes, there may be some HS power programs that could play with lesser college programs.
I have six players from my HS program currently playing in college and all levels are covered. One is my kid, who transferred from a very deep D2 conference to a typical NAIA conference. So, I get a pretty good insight. One of the great things about NAIA is that it's not uncommon for them to schedule D2's and even D1's as part of their non-conference schedule. This can be a little tricky because neither team is likely to use better starting pitching for these midweek non-conference games but still... son's decent NAIA team played competitively with a ranked D2 and another good D2 and beat a bad D2. They got blown out by a D1 that is having a very good year.
I don't know who you saw but some things to keep in mind... many conference tourneys include several teams, often including some on the bottom rung. Also, conference tourneys are typically several games packed into a very short window. So everyone has to use pitching at some point that is definitely not their best. This is one of the most noticeable differences I saw from good D2 to NAIA - depth. By the time you get to the fourth starter or the third guy off the bench, there is typically a definitive drop.
There will be guys drafted from son's team and conference. Every team has a nasty pitcher or two or three. The better teams are more likely to have three plus a decent closer. The better D2 teams seemed to have five, six, seven decent arms with a more subtle drop beyond that. Lower levels are also likely to take more low velo guys with control so sometimes the level of play doesn't look as competitive.
I can tell you that my HS program which is typically sits at around the top 25-30% of California HS's could not play with any of the college programs that our alumni are playing at regardless of level.
NAIA schools can give athletic scholarships so with that alone they are going to attract more talented players than an average HS player. Once you get past the 40 or so D1 schools who are legitimately trying to win in Omaha every year you have to drill down to the specific program to find the good and bad. Mid to lower tier D1 can be beaten by certain D2, NAIA, and good D3 teams. There are lower tier D1 schools which are really bad and would be beaten by a good chunk of D2 and NAIA. In college baseball there are really 2 breakdowns of levels. There is a D1 tier that has potential draft picks as recruits and tries to win a championship every year and every other school regardless of division where you have to do research to find their strengths, weaknesses, and your fit on the team.
I have gunned many NAIA and D3 pitchers in the upper 70's and low 80's. There are 90's kids at all levels of college baseball but whereas they are common in D1 they are true outliers in the lower levels. There are many lower level college teams that don't have a single pitcher in the 90's. And if you get to the bench or maybe your 7,8,9 pitchers you get into very very mediocre talent in all but the best of the best lower division schools. Up here we have Whitewater, LaCrosse and Osh Gosh all good D3's. They have some really really good players but even they have some very average guys on the bench.
thx for the responses guys. This conference has teams from OK and TX and has the #1 team in the country currently. They were deep in their conference tournament and basically playing a best of 3 to see who made it to the championship today, so pitching was very thin im sure. The asst coach on the one team works with my son on catching/fielding and he said they get good players that can't make grades or for whatever reason (usually not talent) dont play D1 or D2. Youre right it does seem like 2-3 good starters and a closer. The closer of one of the teams was brought in, throwing appx 82-83 mph Id guestimate, a straight fb and a curve ball that he struggled to get over or hung and he got shelled.
My son was commenting on the play of the game and I told him these guys get to play baseball for 4 more years of their life and get at least a portion of their college paid for...so not too shabby if you ask me. Like I said, I wasnt trying to be condescending of these guys at all, just didnt know if this was the norm or what the situation was.
edcoach posted:thx for the responses guys. This conference has teams from OK and TX and has the #1 team in the country currently. They were deep in their conference tournament and basically playing a best of 3 to see who made it to the championship today, so pitching was very thin im sure. The asst coach on the one team works with my son on catching/fielding and he said they get good players that can't make grades or for whatever reason (usually not talent) dont play D1 or D2. Youre right it does seem like 2-3 good starters and a closer. The closer of one of the teams was brought in, throwing appx 82-83 mph Id guestimate, a straight fb and a curve ball that he struggled to get over or hung and he got shelled.
My son was commenting on the play of the game and I told him these guys get to play baseball for 4 more years of their life and get at least a portion of their college paid for...so not too shabby if you ask me. Like I said, I wasnt trying to be condescending of these guys at all, just didnt know if this was the norm or what the situation was.
Edcoach, I wish more kids went to see NAIA and D3 games. Many of these kids, for a wide variety of reasons, think they cannot play college baseball if they aren't throwing 90 or hitting 20 HR's their senior year, and that just isn't true. If a kid has the ability to make a 6A varsity team and get some decent playing time they can play college baseball if they try hard to find somewhere.
NAIA is a complex creature but at it's core you have to remember a few things:
1. Baseball is still an any given day sport, an NAIA team could beat a D1 if the conditions were just right.
2. Those coaches aren't bound by the NCAA rules, your kid can talk to them in 3rd grade and they can talk to your kid.
3. A player can get a decent scholarship from a NAIA.
4. Players DO get drafted from NAIA's every year.
5. Most have a JV and a Varsity program so there is a greater chance of a kid getting to play.
A local NAIA (top 5) is very good. Top 3-4 pitchers all 90+. Very strong offensively. They would beat a lot of the D2 and D3 college programs in the state...maybe even some D1's. They are solid 1-9. Former pro as a pitching coach and a well known former MLB guy is hitting coach. I saw them play a couple weeks ago vs the bottom team in the league....and granted, it was ugly due to the opponent being no better than a .500 HS team...maybe worse. They are hosting a regional and I'm planning on getting over to take a look at a couple more game.
At the higher levels NAIA is better than lower level DI and mid level DII. Players and parents need to get educated about NAIA baseball. In many cases players end up at NAIA schools simply because it is by far their best offer. I coached an NAIA team and we had far superior talent than any of the DI teams in our area. Two pitchers that ended up in the Big Leagues. Four others that played in the minor leagues.
How did we get that much talent on one team? Granted the academic requirements helped in some cases, but mostly it was because of the money. We could really make some very hard offers to turn down if we wanted a player. The competition was excellent to below average. We played teams from DIII to DI along with our conference of all NAIA schools. Players got a good education, played some great baseball, many of them for very little money.
For some reason, unless you're around a good NAIA program, people don't understand how great an option this can be. I think most kids getting the minimum or preferred walk-on offers from DI's, should check out the higher level NAIA programs. In some cases it could save you a boat load of money. And if you are in a good program, the big dream stays alive.
PGStaff posted:At the higher levels NAIA is better than lower level DI and mid level DII. Players and parents need to get educated about NAIA baseball. In many cases players end up at NAIA schools simply because it is by far their best offer. I coached an NAIA team and we had far superior talent than any of the DI teams in our area. Two pitchers that ended up in the Big Leagues. Four others that played in the minor leagues.
How did we get that much talent on one team? Granted the academic requirements helped in some cases, but mostly it was because of the money. We could really make some very hard offers to turn down if we wanted a player. The competition was excellent to below average. We played teams from DIII to DI along with our conference of all NAIA schools. Players got a good education, played some great baseball, many of them for very little money.
For some reason, unless you're around a good NAIA program, people don't understand how great an option this can be. I think most kids getting the minimum or preferred walk-on offers from DI's, should check out the higher level NAIA programs. In some cases it could save you a boat load of money. And if you are in a good program, the big dream stays alive.
PG throw in tht there are some great coaches too. One of my main mentors was Gordie Gillespie a long time NAIA coach who I am sure you knew well!
2020dad posted:PGStaff posted:At the higher levels NAIA is better than lower level DI and mid level DII. Players and parents need to get educated about NAIA baseball. In many cases players end up at NAIA schools simply because it is by far their best offer. I coached an NAIA team and we had far superior talent than any of the DI teams in our area. Two pitchers that ended up in the Big Leagues. Four others that played in the minor leagues.
How did we get that much talent on one team? Granted the academic requirements helped in some cases, but mostly it was because of the money. We could really make some very hard offers to turn down if we wanted a player. The competition was excellent to below average. We played teams from DIII to DI along with our conference of all NAIA schools. Players got a good education, played some great baseball, many of them for very little money.
For some reason, unless you're around a good NAIA program, people don't understand how great an option this can be. I think most kids getting the minimum or preferred walk-on offers from DI's, should check out the higher level NAIA programs. In some cases it could save you a boat load of money. And if you are in a good program, the big dream stays alive.
PG throw in tht there are some great coaches too. One of my main mentors was Gordie Gillespie a long time NAIA coach who I am sure you knew well!
Not to mention the long time coach of Lewis & Clark State University, one of the most respected coaches in college baseball history.
2020dad posted:PGStaff posted:At the higher levels NAIA is better than lower level DI and mid level DII. Players and parents need to get educated about NAIA baseball. In many cases players end up at NAIA schools simply because it is by far their best offer. I coached an NAIA team and we had far superior talent than any of the DI teams in our area. Two pitchers that ended up in the Big Leagues. Four others that played in the minor leagues.
How did we get that much talent on one team? Granted the academic requirements helped in some cases, but mostly it was because of the money. We could really make some very hard offers to turn down if we wanted a player. The competition was excellent to below average. We played teams from DIII to DI along with our conference of all NAIA schools. Players got a good education, played some great baseball, many of them for very little money.
For some reason, unless you're around a good NAIA program, people don't understand how great an option this can be. I think most kids getting the minimum or preferred walk-on offers from DI's, should check out the higher level NAIA programs. In some cases it could save you a boat load of money. And if you are in a good program, the big dream stays alive.
PG throw in tht there are some great coaches too. One of my main mentors was Gordie Gillespie a long time NAIA coach who I am sure you knew well!
Gordie Gillespie was just a flat out COACH. College baseball legend, Illinois HS football legend, and even coached college basketball for a while I believe. He has 2nd and 3rd generations of guys who follow his methods now.
Ja'Crispy posted:2020dad posted:PGStaff posted:At the higher levels NAIA is better than lower level DI and mid level DII. Players and parents need to get educated about NAIA baseball. In many cases players end up at NAIA schools simply because it is by far their best offer. I coached an NAIA team and we had far superior talent than any of the DI teams in our area. Two pitchers that ended up in the Big Leagues. Four others that played in the minor leagues.
How did we get that much talent on one team? Granted the academic requirements helped in some cases, but mostly it was because of the money. We could really make some very hard offers to turn down if we wanted a player. The competition was excellent to below average. We played teams from DIII to DI along with our conference of all NAIA schools. Players got a good education, played some great baseball, many of them for very little money.
For some reason, unless you're around a good NAIA program, people don't understand how great an option this can be. I think most kids getting the minimum or preferred walk-on offers from DI's, should check out the higher level NAIA programs. In some cases it could save you a boat load of money. And if you are in a good program, the big dream stays alive.
PG throw in tht there are some great coaches too. One of my main mentors was Gordie Gillespie a long time NAIA coach who I am sure you knew well!
Gordie Gillespie was just a flat out COACH. College baseball legend, Illinois HS football legend, and even coached college basketball for a while I believe. He has 2nd and 3rd generations of guys who follow his methods now.
I always wondered if he wasn't part of what made the Joliet area just so damn competitive athletically. I was born and raised in Joliet and went to joliet Catholic. He was a legend.
Did he ever coach baseball at joliet junior college?
It largely depends on the area. The top of the NAIA-West is elite with the obvious LC State but also pitching powerhouses UBC and Westmont, and the home run kings at Menlo (look up their stats; there's a reason I hired their hitting coach last year to run my hitting program at Driveline).
Some of the Midwest/SE NAIA ball is.... pretty bad. But the best NAIA schools are on par with T50 D1 schools. In LC State's past - a decade or two ago - they were routinely crushing D1 schools in scrimmages. Their rosters were insane.
A lot of NAIA players are simply D1 kids who couldn't make grades or kids with behavioral issues at NCAA schools that got cut. They could have played anywhere. Depth is obviously an issue at most NAIA schools, of course...
edcoach posted:Did he ever coach baseball at joliet junior college?
Nope not that I am aware of. Lewis college/university and college of st Francis. For baseball.
2020dad posted:edcoach posted:Did he ever coach baseball at joliet junior college?
Nope not that I am aware of. Lewis college/university and college of st Francis. For baseball.
Correct and coached D3 baseball at Ripon in Wisconsin. When my son talked to his future college coach he spoke to him about all of the hitting stuff they use comes from Gordie Gillespie. I only got to watch him dominate from a distance growing up about 30 minutes to the SE. I think he was a huge part of what made and still makes the Joliet area an athletic powerhouse. Best baseball in the state played in the SW suburbs.
Ja'Crispy posted:2020dad posted:edcoach posted:Did he ever coach baseball at joliet junior college?
Nope not that I am aware of. Lewis college/university and college of st Francis. For baseball.
Correct and coached D3 baseball at Ripon in Wisconsin. When my son talked to his future college coach he spoke to him about all of the hitting stuff they use comes from Gordie Gillespie. I only got to watch him dominate from a distance growing up about 30 minutes to the SE. I think he was a huge part of what made and still makes the Joliet area an athletic powerhouse. Best baseball in the state played in the SW suburbs.
Sorry forgot about the few years he went to assist his son at Ripon. Crispy you from Illinois/Indiana border?
that's right...my cousin played for him at St Francis. I played JUCO at Illinois Valley at the time he was at St Francis....was thinking it was JJC but that was a generation ago, my mind is faltering! :-)
2020dad posted:Ja'Crispy posted:2020dad posted:edcoach posted:Did he ever coach baseball at joliet junior college?
Nope not that I am aware of. Lewis college/university and college of st Francis. For baseball.
Correct and coached D3 baseball at Ripon in Wisconsin. When my son talked to his future college coach he spoke to him about all of the hitting stuff they use comes from Gordie Gillespie. I only got to watch him dominate from a distance growing up about 30 minutes to the SE. I think he was a huge part of what made and still makes the Joliet area an athletic powerhouse. Best baseball in the state played in the SW suburbs.
Sorry forgot about the few years he went to assist his son at Ripon. Crispy you from Illinois/Indiana border?
I grew up in the Kankakee area and live in the western suburbs now.
edcoach posted:that's right...my cousin played for him at St Francis. I played JUCO at Illinois Valley at the time he was at St Francis....was thinking it was JJC but that was a generation ago, my mind is faltering! :-)
ED and 2020 you may like this.
I played at an NAIA school, Faulkner University. We beat several Top 50 D1 teams each season I played. This was in the 80's. In fairness, we usually faced there non weekend guys, but we always competed.
For many a solid NAIA team is a great choice to keep playing!
Ja'Crispy posted:2020dad posted:Ja'Crispy posted:2020dad posted:edcoach posted:Did he ever coach baseball at joliet junior college?
Nope not that I am aware of. Lewis college/university and college of st Francis. For baseball.
Correct and coached D3 baseball at Ripon in Wisconsin. When my son talked to his future college coach he spoke to him about all of the hitting stuff they use comes from Gordie Gillespie. I only got to watch him dominate from a distance growing up about 30 minutes to the SE. I think he was a huge part of what made and still makes the Joliet area an athletic powerhouse. Best baseball in the state played in the SW suburbs.
Sorry forgot about the few years he went to assist his son at Ripon. Crispy you from Illinois/Indiana border?
I grew up in the Kankakee area and live in the western suburbs now.
My wife is from Kankakee area. May be getting to PM time here... but how old are you? You can answer here or PM me if more comfortable. Or tell me to get lost!!!
great article JA'Crispy! Did you play at Kankakee? Have a buddy here in Oklahoma that played there....we played Kankakee when I was at Illinois Valley as well.
Ja'Crispy posted:edcoach posted:that's right...my cousin played for him at St Francis. I played JUCO at Illinois Valley at the time he was at St Francis....was thinking it was JJC but that was a generation ago, my mind is faltering! :-)
ED and 2020 you may like this.
Current USF coach mentioned in that article is a friend and a really good guy. I would be very happy to have my son play for him. If you are looking for a great guy to play for at that level He's your man.
edcoach posted:great article JA'Crispy! Did you play at Kankakee? Have a buddy here in Oklahoma that played there....we played Kankakee when I was at Illinois Valley as well.
No I went to school in DeKalb and didn't play baseball in college. KCC is a quality program and has had a lot of good players come through.
2020dad posted:Ja'Crispy posted:edcoach posted:that's right...my cousin played for him at St Francis. I played JUCO at Illinois Valley at the time he was at St Francis....was thinking it was JJC but that was a generation ago, my mind is faltering! :-)
ED and 2020 you may like this.
Current USF coach mentioned in that article is a friend and a really good guy. I would be very happy to have my son play for him. If you are looking for a great guy to play for at that level He's your man.
I have watched those guys do their winter workouts indoors down in Romeoville. Just sitting quietly on the sidelines and observing I really like the way they were getting things done.
there was some good players in that area back then (1989-1990)...I played against a few mlb'ers from Triton College and played against Jim Thome (Illinois Central)....my son is tired of my Al Bundy like Jim Thome stories..lol...
Kyle Boddy posted:It largely depends on the area. The top of the NAIA-West is elite with the obvious LC State but also pitching powerhouses UBC and Westmont, and the home run kings at Menlo (look up their stats; there's a reason I hired their hitting coach last year to run my hitting program at Driveline).
Some of the Midwest/SE NAIA ball is.... pretty bad. But the best NAIA schools are on par with T50 D1 schools. In LC State's past - a decade or two ago - they were routinely crushing D1 schools in scrimmages. Their rosters were insane.
A lot of NAIA players are simply D1 kids who couldn't make grades or kids with behavioral issues at NCAA schools that got cut. They could have played anywhere. Depth is obviously an issue at most NAIA schools, of course...
I am not sure most people that don't follow NAIA know how awesome LCSC has been. They get guys drafted every year. Sometimes 4 or 5 guys a year. A few years back, they had the #12 overall pick in the draft.
edcoach posted:there was some good players in that area back then (1989-1990)...I played against a few mlb'ers from Triton College and played against Jim Thome (Illinois Central)....my son is tired of my Al Bundy like Jim Thome stories..lol...
http://www.baseball-reference....rs/j/johnsla03.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference....rs/p/puckeki01.shtml
Really good players coming out of Triton at that time. Everybody should have time for a Jim Thome story great guy and was a beast when he was that age. Illinois Central has a nice little baseball facility as well.
Ok ill share my thome story.....at ICC...dont remember if 1989 or 90....think 89...it was appx 35 degrees with a strong north wind. Was appx 20 degree windchill....i was catching....in 1st game he hit 3 bombs. He didnt stick around for 2nd game....talked to a scout later that spring said a scout was fired for not taking him out of hs..dont remember whole story but was good
edcoach posted:Ok ill share my thome story.....at ICC...dont remember if 1989 or 90....think 89...it was appx 35 degrees with a strong north wind. Was appx 20 degree windchill....i was catching....in 1st game he hit 3 bombs. He didnt stick around for 2nd game....talked to a scout later that spring said a scout was fired for not taking him out of hs..dont remember whole story but was good
35 and 20 degree windchill Illinois Spring baseball fun. Gotta love this weather. Good thing it wasn't 70 he probably would have hit 4 or 5. He sometimes seemed like a man against boys hitting in MLB in HS its almost unfair.
Related to the OP the NAIA releases it national tourney selections today. They stream video for a good number of their games. This is a good opportunity for parents to check out the quality of baseball for themselves and see if there is a good fit for their son.
There is a local powerhouse NAIA team. They're actually a trade school that's only had a baseball program for 4-5 years. But they have a very strong recruiting program and have managed to recruit top notch Juco and HS players from all over the country. If I told you the name of the town they're in, half the people in CA wouldn't even recognize it. Their practices are beautiful and intense. I wouldn't be surprised if they win the WS this year, though they lost to last year's champions in a low scoring game.
One of mine played high end CA JC, then DI and then NAIA. Had a bad experience at DI...so for his last year he scoured California...D2's ...D 3's and NAIA looking for a great pitching coach and found one. 4 Pitchers from his NAIA school got drafted. The NAIA ball on small budgets was greatly competitive (lots of DI drop downs for lots of reasons...4 teams in the conference were nationally ranked.) but not as deep. It was a great experience. He loved it. I'd recommend it for those looking for an option...there are some good programs and some quality dedicated coaches out there.
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