NAIA vs. JuCo

The majority of the time when people recommend going the Juco route, it's because it's a detour of sorts.  The final destination being a 4-year school.  The general idea is that if you couldn't go straight to the 4-year program of your choice from high school, you can go develop and play for 2 years at a Juco and then leverage that experience to get to the 4-year of your "dreams" or whatever.

NAIA are 4-years schools, so they're the destination; not a detour.  And for many, a detour through a Juco isn't necessary.  Not that one can't transfer an NAIA school and go elsewhere, but it's not the norm.  NAIA's are better for those who want to make things like education, staying put/not uprooting, comfort, continuity, etc priority.  Much of more of a traditional college experience when compared with going the Juco route.

For starters, they don't really exist on the east coast north of the Mason Dixon line. So there is not much to talk about for a good amount of people who hang around here. Same applies to the Rockies. Once you leave the midwest and the south there isn't much until Arizona/Ca.

Second, a lot are smaller schools with heavy religious identities. Baptist schools, methodist, christian etc. Not for everybody

Third and most importantly. They have weak academic profiles. You're going to have a very hard time finding a HA NAIA, odds are there are better academic opportunities closer to home.

Top NAIAs are good, better than the bottom D1s. But the lower half of NAIA baseball will resemble a HS game more than it will a D1 game. This is what a former NAIA coach told me on a recruiting visit at his new D1

I agree with @Danj but I would describe JuCo differently than a detour. I would describe it as a period of development and definition. When (almost all) kids come out of HS it’s guesswork as to what kind of player they will be in college. Call it projection if you want but it’s no more than an educated guess. From the POV of the 4 year school, two years of JuCo ball provides a lot of data and eliminates a lot of the guesswork. From the player’s POV JuCo provides 2 years to bet on themselves and prove the players value to a 4 year school that overlooked them.  Essentially it’s chance to raise their stock in the eyes of 4 year college coaches and prove they belong. Those 2 JuCo years also serve as a reality check for many players as the performance (or lack thereof) of a player when facing JuCo competition is a much better predictor of which level of 4 year college baseball is appropriate than HS or travel ball.

To @pabaseball point

Sort descending by SAT Score

@adbono posted:

I agree with @Danj but I would describe JuCo differently than a detour. I would describe it as a period of development and definition. When (almost all) kids come out of HS it’s guesswork as to what kind of player they will be in college. Call it projection if you want but it’s no more than an educated guess. From the POV of the 4 year school, two years of JuCo ball provides a lot of data and eliminates a lot of the guesswork. From the player’s POV JuCo provides 2 years to bet on themselves and prove the players value to a 4 year school that overlooked them.  Essentially it’s chance to raise their stock in the eyes of 4 year college coaches and prove they belong. Those 2 JuCo years also serve as a reality check for many players as the performance (or lack thereof) of a player when facing JuCo competition is a much better predictor of which level of 4 year college baseball is appropriate than HS or travel ball.

d1baseball.com and PBR have been spending a lot more time highlighting JUCO.

On twitter, Noah Sharp, unofficial voice of juco commits @_TheJBB

He does a good job promoting Juco,  https://thejbb.net/

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

d1baseball.com and PBR have been spending a lot more time highlighting JUCO.

On twitter, Noah Sharp, unofficial voice of juco commits @_TheJBB

He does a good job promoting Juco,  https://thejbb.net/

It’s progress that D1 baseball & PBR are spending more time covering JuCo. They still don’t do a very good job IMO. With JuCo being designed as a 2 year program there is close to 50% roster turnover every year. Teams can go from good to bad (or vice versa) with the addition or departure of any one recruiting class. Point being, the JuCo world is constantly changing and it’s next to impossible to stay on top of it. As a result media coverage tends to be “all hat and no cattle” other than local outlets. They report old news more than current. Noah Sharp does a lot to promote JuCo baseball thru social media - but he often isn’t well informed. JuCo teams that are savvy on social media feed him information in return for JBB mentioning (promoting) their programs. While I do believe that Sharp’s intentions are good, the material he puts out is inherently biased in favor of the coaches that feed him. Overall, the  JuCo route is very misunderstood and the experience varies tremendously from region to region across America. Roster turnover is high, coaching changes are common, and the experience is very fluid. All these variables make it hard to stay current but at least some people are finally trying. However the most accurate information will always come from players that are currently in the program.

I see you @jaketaylor! How is Blake doing this fall ?

Good fall so far. Thanks for the shout out. Couldn't agree more on the coverage. You have it absolutely nailed!

Agree with most all of the above... I'll add for perspective.  There are tons of Calif. JC players who go on to play at NAIA's all over the country and most do well.  As Adbono says, success at competitive JC level is very much a proving ground and training grounds for playing at a 4 yr somewhere afterward.  Many NAIA programs are a bit of a catch basin for those successful JC players who don't latch on at D1 or D2 schools for any number of reasons.  Those moderate to stronger NAIA baseball programs are typically roster-heavy with JC transfers.

@adbono posted:

It’s progress that D1 baseball & PBR are spending more time covering JuCo. They still don’t do a very good job IMO. With JuCo being designed as a 2 year program there is close to 50% roster turnover every year. Teams can go from good to bad (or vice versa) with the addition or departure of any one recruiting class. Point being, the JuCo world is constantly changing and it’s next to impossible to stay on top of it. As a result media coverage tends to be “all hat and no cattle” other than local outlets. They report old news more than current. Noah Sharp does a lot to promote JuCo baseball thru social media - but he often isn’t well informed. JuCo teams that are savvy on social media feed him information in return for JBB mentioning (promoting) their programs. While I do believe that Sharp’s intentions are good, the material he puts out is inherently biased in favor of the coaches that feed him. Overall, the  JuCo route is very misunderstood and the experience varies tremendously from region to region across America. Roster turnover is high, coaching changes are common, and the experience is very fluid. All these variables make it hard to stay current but at least some people are finally trying. However the most accurate information will always come from players that are currently in the program.

Agree.

"However the most accurate information will always come from players that are currently in the program."

Isn't this the case with any program?

Trust by Verify

NJCAA (24 regions), all with their own politics.

IMHO, it is not the responsibility for NCAA to market JUCO (NJCAA, CCCAA or NWAC).

These organizations have to perform their own marketing and value proposition.

The scouting bureaus (PBR, perfectgame) help facilitate a bridge but their information will be as good as what is provided by the schools (coaches or AD).

Note,  Sharp can be the hype man (lol),  but unless the organizations perform the necessary branding, we have to take what is provided.

Your points are all valid.

Question, what information do you deem important for JUCOs?

@CollegebaseballInsights, important information would be:                                      1: Are they fully funded ?                                 2. Number of scholarships they have ?
3. Tenure of HC ?                                                4. Number of paid Asst. Coaches ?
5. D1, D2, or D3 ?
6. Academic support ? (Study halls, etc.)       7. On campus housing ?
8. Fall roster size  ? (typical) - if possible            9. Spring roster size  ?                                                                 10. Is there a JV program ?
11. Are academic scholarships offered ?
   Off the top of my head, those are things I would ask. Probably left something out.

@adbono posted:

@CollegebaseballInsights, important information would be:                                      1: Are they fully funded ?                                 2. Number of scholarships they have ?
3. Tenure of HC ?                                                4. Number of paid Asst. Coaches ?
5. D1, D2, or D3 ?
6. Academic support ? (Study halls, etc.)       7. On campus housing ?
8. Fall roster size  ? (typical) - if possible            9. Spring roster size  ?                                                                 10. Is there a JV program ?
11. Are academic scholarships offered ?
   Off the top of my head, those are things I would ask. Probably left something out.

Understood.

Questions 1-12 stated above are spot on for any player or parent to ask/consider when selecting potential schools at an level really but one more to add on would be:

13.Do they have a weight room and meal plans?

Most D1 Juco's in Texas at least have 2 coaches who respectfully function like advanced High school coaches with oftentimes smaller budgets. The double edge sword that comes with playing at this level is you have little to no rules on the limit of time you can "work" but at the same time the resources (facilities and equipment) and the knowledge of things traditionally seen as outside of the game (strength training, nutrition  and technology) can be lacking compared to larger schools with bigger budgets.

As someone who played at a major D1 Juco in Texas I highly recommend the "juco route" but it comes with its challenges for sure. This is where guys find out how bad do they really want it. Everything is earned at this level which is in many ways why players that prove themselves at this level are so attractive to four year schools. Want to get stronger ? Nobody’s there to teach  you have to learn it. Need to gain weight? You'll find players taking on nutrition classes because they WANT to not because they HAVE too.

For many players the juco experience forces them to develop themselves and "get it" much sooner than most players who go to a 4 year school out of High school.

It would be helpful to break down pitching vs position players when looking at post-JUCO outcomes. My sense is you see more fairy tale endings with pitchers, and fairy tales cloud the analysis.

About on-campus housing: At some schools (maybe just the ones we bumped into), the coach needs to keep a block of beds occupied. At two schools we visited, I noticed the discrepancy between number of baseball beds and number of lockers in the clubhouse. The coaches explained that in ways that seem honest in retrospect (one took on kids they knew they would redshirt, the other drove some kids off). Fall rosters of 60 and 45, respectively.

Like anything: Ask open-ended questions. While the coaches I talked to were selling their programs, they were also very honest on direct questions. But you need to take off the happy ears and listen/accept.

Junior colleges are public institutions, and you may find that you can get ahold of their budget online.

“Nobody is here to teach you have to learn it” — this is good advice.

@Texas Baseball Resource posted:

Questions 1-12 stated above are spot on for any player or parent to ask/consider when selecting potential schools at an level really but one more to add on would be:

13.Do they have a weight room and meal plans?

Most D1 Juco's in Texas at least have 2 coaches who respectfully function like advanced High school coaches with oftentimes smaller budgets. The double edge sword that comes with playing at this level is you have little to no rules on the limit of time you can "work" but at the same time the resources (facilities and equipment) and the knowledge of things traditionally seen as outside of the game (strength training, nutrition  and technology) can be lacking compared to larger schools with bigger budgets.

As someone who played at a major D1 Juco in Texas I highly recommend the "juco route" but it comes with its challenges for sure. This is where guys find out how bad do they really want it. Everything is earned at this level which is in many ways why players that prove themselves at this level are so attractive to four year schools. Want to get stronger ? Nobody’s there to teach  you have to learn it. Need to gain weight? You'll find players taking on nutrition classes because they WANT to not because they HAVE too.

For many players the juco experience forces them to develop themselves and "get it" much sooner than most players who go to a 4 year school out of High school.

Agree 100%

@adbono posted:

It’s progress that D1 baseball & PBR are spending more time covering JuCo. They still don’t do a very good job IMO. With JuCo being designed as a 2 year program there is close to 50% roster turnover every year. Teams can go from good to bad (or vice versa) with the addition or departure of any one recruiting class. Point being, the JuCo world is constantly changing and it’s next to impossible to stay on top of it. As a result media coverage tends to be “all hat and no cattle” other than local outlets. They report old news more than current. Noah Sharp does a lot to promote JuCo baseball thru social media - but he often isn’t well informed. JuCo teams that are savvy on social media feed him information in return for JBB mentioning (promoting) their programs. While I do believe that Sharp’s intentions are good, the material he puts out is inherently biased in favor of the coaches that feed him. Overall, the  JuCo route is very misunderstood and the experience varies tremendously from region to region across America. Roster turnover is high, coaching changes are common, and the experience is very fluid. All these variables make it hard to stay current but at least some people are finally trying. However the most accurate information will always come from players that are currently in the program.

The bolded is exactly why i don't get the whole love affair with JuCo. not that it is a right or wrong I personally just don't get it.

@old_school posted:

The bolded is exactly why i don't get the whole love affair with JuCo. not that it is a right or wrong I personally just don't get it.

It provides an alternative.

For example, here is the player attrition rate for Region 5 for the 2021, with the reason for the attrition.

Note, included in the transfer out are players that moved to a 4yr school another 2 yr school

e.g McLennan has 16 players from 2020 team move to 4yr, 5 players transfer to another juco

Player Attrition by Position

@old_school posted:

The bolded is exactly why i don't get the whole love affair with JuCo. not that it is a right or wrong I personally just don't get it.

I have the same feeling. The other thing I also never really understood was that if the top jucos are that good (many say they're better than most D1s and can compete with the P5s) - why risk getting buried on a 45+ man depth chart? Why not just go to the D1 to begin with?

I think jucos are great for a lot of reasons. I also shake my head at what it's propped up to be sometimes.

Because you want to play right away and/or have a chance to be drafted.  At son's P5, I would say there will only be about 2-4 true incoming freshmen that will get any significant playing time this year.  That is the case on most teams in the SEC and almost every competitive 4 year school on every level.  So many players will go to a juco and get bigger, faster, stronger and get to play right away.  For many it is also about getting locked in academically at a smaller school before making the jump.  I don't think the average player is ready for the academic rigors of 4 year college sports activities, social activiities/distractions, and the academic stuff.

One reason that the “objectors” don’t get it is because they have never seen the level of play at the competitive JuCos in the sunbelt states and the Midwest

This transfer movement goes both ways.

Yes many of the top juco programs in (Texas at least) have freshman players who "could have" made a D1 roster out of High school however most players are not mature enough to deal with everything that comes with attending these universities .

Many of the current juco rosters have players that transferred down from D1's for reasons ranging from playing time to off the field issues.

@adbono posted:

One reason that the “objectors” don’t get it is because they have never seen the level of play at the competitive JuCos in the sunbelt states and the Midwest

fair enough but

1. i don't consider myself an objector just lacking understanding...maybe i am an objector by default?

2. I believe i read in this thread that it is very difficult to get on the field as a freshman. what is the difference if you can't get on the field for a year or 2 at 4 yr school or if you can't get on for a year at 2yr school?

3. IMO I wouldn't be advising my kid to find a situation that is high turnover, coaching changes and very fluid. it is one thing to end up there due to lack of options but go looking for it seems odd to me.

@Texas Baseball Resource posted:

This transfer movement goes both ways.

Yes many of the top juco programs in (Texas at least) have freshman players who "could have" made a D1 roster out of High school however most players are not mature enough to deal with everything that comes with attending these universities .

Many of the current juco rosters have players that transferred down from D1's for reasons ranging from playing time to off the field issues.

bolded makes sense...now you are doing what needs to be done being there. that logic i can follow.

@Texas Baseball Resource posted:

This transfer movement goes both ways.

Yes many of the top juco programs in (Texas at least) have freshman players who "could have" made a D1 roster out of High school however most players are not mature enough to deal with everything that comes with attending these universities .

Many of the current juco rosters have players that transferred down from D1's for reasons ranging from playing time to off the field issues.

Again, 100% correct. Maybe 5% of HS seniors that advance to play college baseball are ready to contribute to a top 150 D1 or a top 100 D2. Maybe. It’s easier to contribute at a D3 but all is relative. The litmus test I use with players I coach/advise is level of interest of area MLB scouts. If scouts are making in home visits then a player is probably ready to impact a good 4 year program. If no scout interest the player probably isn’t ready. That’s what’s true in baseball hotbeds. It may not be true in Rhode Island. Where baseball is Uber competitive most players (especially position players) are way better off playing at a JuCo for two years and getting better than they are sitting for two years at a 4 year school and stagnating. Pitching Fan’s comments are also right on point.

@Texas Baseball Resource :

Are you Ryan Ford ?

@old_school posted:

2. I believe i read in this thread that it is very difficult to get on the field as a freshman. what is the difference if you can't get on the field for a year or 2 at 4 yr school or if you can't get on for a year at 2yr school?

I don't think this is a JUCO vs 4 year problem.  This is players/parents/advisors having an honest opinion of their talents, where they fit in and what they want their experience to be.  Full disclosure, my son is at his 2nd year at a JUCO.  He had no Division 1 offers, but had Div 2 and NAIA offers.  He had to take everything into account to make a choice, playing time being one of them.  But it wasn't like... if I go to a JUCO I play, 4 year I sit.  There was some JUCO's that we knew he would probably not play his freshman year.  There were some 4 years that we really thought he would have a chance to compete right away.

He ended up choosing a JUCO to keep his D1 dream alive.  He ended up choosing the JUCO he did cause they have a history of development and he knew he would be in the mix to play as a freshman.   

MNBBG

@MNBaseballGuy posted:

I don't think this is a JUCO vs 4 year problem.  This is players/parents/advisors having an honest opinion of their talents, where they fit in and what they want their experience to be.  Full disclosure, my son is at his 2nd year at a JUCO.  He had no Division 1 offers, but had Div 2 and NAIA offers.  He had to take everything into account to make a choice, playing time being one of them.  But it wasn't like... if I go to a JUCO I play, 4 year I sit.  There was some JUCO's that we knew he would probably not play his freshman year.  There were some 4 years that we really thought he would have a chance to compete right away.

He ended up choosing a JUCO to keep his D1 dream alive.  He ended up choosing the JUCO he did cause they have a history of development and he knew he would be in the mix to play as a freshman.   

MNBBG

Common sense strategy

@old_school posted:

fair enough but

1. i don't consider myself an objector just lacking understanding...maybe i am an objector by default?

2. I believe i read in this thread that it is very difficult to get on the field as a freshman. what is the difference if you can't get on the field for a year or 2 at 4 yr school or if you can't get on for a year at 2yr school?

3. IMO I wouldn't be advising my kid to find a situation that is high turnover, coaching changes and very fluid. it is one thing to end up there due to lack of options but go looking for it seems odd to me.

With respects to high turnover, included is the following:

1 - How many transfer out?

2 - MLB Draft or sign professional contract

3 - Transfer (4 yr or 2yr)

4 - Reasons Unknown

Yes the number will be higher than somebody at a 4yr college, but you can't compare the 2 business models.

Note, cost of attendance will be the #1 influence towards making a decision.

As for head coaching changes, it depends on the division and region

Note, covid has allow everybody to reassess their career choices

Since 2020:

CCCAA - 88 colleges,  22 coaching changes.

NWAC  - 29 Colleges,  9 coaching changes

NJCAA-d1 - ~174 colleges

njcaa-d2 - ~134 colleges

njcaa-d3 - ~134 colleges

No. of changes  ~120 total

The biggest benefit at JUCO is the essentially unlimited practice time and the full Fall schedule.  While there is a limit to the number of Fall games, many of these are 14-16 inning games.  There is a lot of playing time to go around in the Fall season.  It's like a full time baseball camp with some school mixed in.

The talent at the top end is pretty high.  Wabash beat Purdue this weekend and struck out 15 in the 9 inning portion.  It's hard for people to believe this but Wabash probably has better arms than any team in the Big 10.  Cowley took down Wichita St 18-11.   Iowa Western jumped all over Iowa's ace who is a projected high draft pick.  It was 11-2 before Iowa's depth took over in the later innings.

I'm of the opinion that only the top 1% are capable of playing out of high school in the SEC/Big 12/ACC.  JUCO provides a home for all of the kids that chose Arkansas/Mississippi St/FSU etc out of high school when they should have picked La Tech/Southern Miss/South Alabama etc. 

One thing I am struggling with, and I hope some of the people who have been through this can help me.

Player A throws hard out of high school goes mid D1. Puts up terrible stats in limited time.   Transfers to JUCO, still throws hard, puts up mediocre JUCO stats, commits to high end D1. 

Player B goes to high end D1 puts up terrible stats, transfers to JUCO and puts up bad stats, commits to even higher end D1. 

I could put about 5-10 names into player A and B.  I don't get it for college teams that have a limited window of time for each player.  I get why those types of players get drafted where you have a window of 5-7 years to develop a player.

Often times it is based on coach connections. Or the other reason is probably physical projectability. If a Miss. St. sees a juco arm throwing 94 at 6'5" versus 97 at 5'9", many schools will still pick the taller kid. I totally agree that many schools factor in projectability too much in recruiting decisions when they only have 2, 3, 4 years to develop.

I can't think of a single kid who put up bad numbers at a juco and went to a top 10 P5 school unless they were throwing upper 90's.  Then the P5 coach believes that he can teach him to throw strikes by fixing mechanics. Remember every P5 and MLB pitching coach believes he can fix problems of a high velocity guy.

The one problem with juco that I see across the board in top schools is that due to their large number of games they do not have time to fix kids #1 and there are a lot of juco kids on steroids #2 because very few jucos test them.  These kids make crazy jumps in velo or hitting power at the juco after juicing.  They struggle when they go to the next level where they test.

I hear stories about JuCos where the players juice and never get tested ( I see you San Jac) but I have never seen it first hand. My son was a big, strong JuCo 3B and he was tested 5 times in the fall of his freshman year.

@PitchingFan posted:

I can't think of a single kid who put up bad numbers at a juco and went to a top 10 P5 school unless they were throwing upper 90's.  Then the P5 coach believes that he can teach him to throw strikes by fixing mechanics. Remember every P5 and MLB pitching coach believes he can fix problems of a high velocity guy.

The one problem with juco that I see across the board in top schools is that due to their large number of games they do not have time to fix kids #1 and there are a lot of juco kids on steroids #2 because very few jucos test them.  These kids make crazy jumps in velo or hitting power at the juco after juicing.  They struggle when they go to the next level where they test.

Isn't Inseason fixing an issue at any level of baseball?  Otherwise the correction occur during the offseason, with potential tweaking inseason

The problem with many jucos is there is not a lot of offseason and I'm a huge fan of jucos.  They just don't get the true offseason that others get because of the number of games they are allowed.  They get all the fall games which is when most correction is done and they start the spring early so they don't get much time for correction plus they throw so much that they don't want to throw extra to fix things.  It is the pros and cons of juco all placed in one.

Adbono, I know of very few jucos in the Southeast that test.  it is not required and the schools are not paying to have it done.

@PitchingFan posted:

The problem with many jucos is there is not a lot of offseason and I'm a huge fan of jucos.  They just don't get the true offseason that others get because of the number of games they are allowed.  They get all the fall games which is when most correction is done and they start the spring early so they don't get much time for correction plus they throw so much that they don't want to throw extra to fix things.  It is the pros and cons of juco all placed in one.

Adbono, I know of very few jucos in the Southeast that test.  it is not required and the schools are not paying to have it done.

Mercer County, Gloucester (SJ of Rowan), Cumberland or Lackawanna have a significant fall practice schedule,  showcase and scrimmages.  from a spring season schedule perspective, they start their season about the same time as NCAA.

Note, the issue is normally the quality of the coaching staff.

Would like to here your thoughts on two perennial power houses in my neck of the woods.  Say a Walter's State, JuCo, and a TN Wesleyan, NAIA.

@JETSR71 posted:

Would like to here your thoughts on two perennial power houses in my neck of the woods.  Say a Walter's State, JuCo, and a TN Wesleyan, NAIA.

At very high level,

Walter State

61-7-0 (2021)

239-45-0 (Since 2017)

In 2021, 37 at 4 yr schools

D1 - 27

D2 - 3

D3 - 1

NAIA - 5

I played two years at San Jac. It was the best baseball experience of my life going to two juco world series'. That is some of the highest level baseball I have played and it was an absolute blast. The falls were long and grueling, but I gained tons of experience and my pitching coach was incredible. As a relief pitcher it was great to have so many games in the fall to get work in without officially recorded stats.

Side note: Walter's state roughed me up in the world series in 2018, they were a really good hitting ball club.