Navigating 15U w/ a Limited Budget - Options. Opinions Requested

"Instead of spending $6000 to play for a team that helps get you nowhere, wouldn't it be much better to spend that money on training that would put you in a much better position to make the Top Teams 12 months from now?   $6000 could get you a lot of top quality hitting or pitching instruction, plus Speed & Agility training and/or strength training.   If your measureables improved enough in 10-11 months you could be in a position to attend (and have money left over to afford) Perfect Game Showcases and/or Headfirst or Stanford camps along with a few less expensive local/regional Showcases and College Camps in June/July/August of 2018, all while everyone else is battling it out in the 15U Daddy-Ball Deluxe Rinky Dink Tournaments

Am I missing something here?  If the 15U/16U/17U years are all about development & exposure why would you spend your limited budget on a team that'll get you neither?"

I think you just answered your own question!

$2700-$3500 for team fees?  Wow, that's ridiculous.  Especially considering you're talking about paying extra for lessons, instruction, etc.  I ran a team for 2 summer (15U & 16U)  We charged $600 and that included uniforms.  No winter workouts, the kids all handled that on their own since we were spread out over a 2-hour radius.  We hosted a weekend tourney that helped with our costs, but even without it, we'd have been nowhere near $2700.  We played at several good tourneys at D1 schools and of the 11 or 12 regulars those two summers, 4 are at D1's, 3 more are at D2's and a couple others are still playing at D3 or JUCO.  You don't have to spend a fortune to play on a quality team.  At 17U, my son played for one of the top programs in Ohio.  He was a 2-way guy and we paid $1400, and were able to go to winter workouts if we wanted to (2 hours away so we didn't make many).  His 17U team sent every kid that was on it to a college program.....over half at D1's.

15u would be post freshman year of high school for most kids. The question would be is what he has  to show worth what you have to spend? My son's post freshman summer he played 16u for dads who were former college players. The team was $600. Other than one trip to Ripken everything was local. It got him local exposure to all the area academies with showcase teams who came calling for the following season to play 17u.

This particular summer my son was starting to tune me out. I mentioned to another coach it's time for another coach to kick my son's rear to the next level. An academy coach had been watching the game scouting players including my son. He heard me, asked how hard I would like him to kick my son and handed me his card.

Agree with RJM....at 15U, you can play good competition without having to spend big money and travel all over the country.  Sure, the WWBA is the best, but unless you've got kids that are gonna garner major D1 interest, it's not necessary at 15U.  What is your son's goal?  Playing in college within a state or so from you, or playing at the biggest, best school he can get into?  Does he project as a major D1 talent at this point, if not, WWBA won't help him, but playing in front of your local mid-major coaches may....that's what we did with our 15U/16U team....even though a couple of those kids ended up at B1G and ACC schools....the others were (and ended up) mid-major guys so that's what we concentratred on.  The coaches found our two "studs" and the other kids got enough notice to get them started on their recruitment.

My son plays on a team in WI and the costs are similar to 3and2's.  What you get for that is paid coaches for all tourneys, 9-10 tournaments annually, 3 hours of weekly practice with those coaches from November through the end of July, unlimited access to indoor batting cages, pitching machines, etc.  My wife and I have had the same discussion - if not in a baseball hotbed where even the 2nd team kids get recruited you may be better off playing HS and legion ball and spend the $$$ on lessons and athletic training that improves measurables.

$2,700-$3,500 is pretty much the norm for academies, where I'm located. You get one paid coach and add in a dad or two that played collegiate ball. That will get you access to the facility from August to August, but you have to work on your own or pony up $50-$70 per 30 min lesson. This doesn't always equate to the best instruction.

My advise, get him to the best trainer that understands baseball movements and get stronger!

I repeat, increase mobility and get stronger!

Second, I would absolutely put him with the best baseball guy you can and  be certain his arm slot/action are relative to his position (s). If that guy has something to do with his potential team, even better, as long as he gets to play. 

From there, it's nice to play on good teams that get to the large tournaments, in the end players move on, not teams. As a '21, I'd focus on getting better to compete with U15 or even better U16's. His '19 summer is pretty meaningful, build toward it!

Baseball is baseball no matter where it's played. I know perspectives are all relative to the regional opportunities (re; PG, PBR, Showball, Head First, ect). If you can play ball, they will find you, but you need to reach out to your prospective targets and attend their camp(s). Coaches don't just wander around to happen across a player, they are following up on leads and players that contacted them.

"Development" is learning the art of baseball organization.

Use your money form a team of other players in your area. Find a former pro player to coach, pay him. schedule games with older teams [ages 17-18], rent a 12 pass van play at local college fields.

Find a sponsor for your van and uniforms, place his logo on the van and shirts. The reason for playing older teams is to improve your player's quickness and baseball intelligence. After every game ask your players to write a summary on "what did they learn".

Years ago, Karolyn Rose [Pete's first wife} and I planned a "barnstorming" tour from Wisconsin to SF, after our CBA World Series in Wisconsin.

Bob

As an incoming Freshman, your focus should be on contributing to the HS program.  If you're on the bubble, pick an organization that will help with that.  So one with good off season training, first and foremost.  Doesn't matter where or who they play in the summer.  Get ready for HS.  If you're choices are just bad teams with no training, then skip it and do the training yourself.  Nothing wrong with Legion ball either.  You do need the fun of games to keep you motivated.  If you move your measurables the next year to get on the better teams, then great, go for it and good luck.  As a fringe player, running around the country spending thousands of dollars is a waste. 

The reality is, the organization doesn't get the kid to the next level.  The kid does that.  Heck we have an organization around here that only picks up kids with offers so they can show how many commitments they "get."  They bail on kids who don't get D1 interest right away.  So their 15u roster for a class year is completely different than the 17u roster a few years later.  We also play a team where half the kids don't play HS ball (but they are still good players).  Not full of "prospects" by any means.  But, they had a kid pitch against us who just committed to a D1 state school.  And come to think of it, they had another kid playing on their "B" level team (He's a really good player, my understanding is money is an issue) who committed to another D1 state school. 

3and2Fastball posted:

1. Travel Team costs are $2700-$3500.  Add in 6-8 weekends of Gas & Hotel fees and you are pretty much at your yearly budget.  Maybe a little left over for position specific lessons (Hitting or Pitching) or Speed/Agility/Strength Training. These Travel Teams essentially have weekly practices from Nov through March around here.   High School season starts up in late March and kids play for their High School teams in April & May.   Travel Ball is just June/July.

So you are essentially topping out your budget for 4-5 months of weekly team practices plus 2 months of Tournaments.  Now if your kid is good enough to make one of the Top 3-4 Teams in the area, that means Perfect Game Tournaments, Area Code Invites, PBR Future Games invites etc, plus playing against the other top flight travel teams.   For your money you are getting great training, exposure, connections, and opportunities.

However, let's say your Kid isn't quite good enough yet to make one of those Top Teams.  He was on the bubble to make a Top Team but wasn't chosen.  Essentially all the rest of the dozens of teams in the region play each other in Tournaments that still require hotel stays, you are still spending the same amount of money, however the training can be more questionable, you aren't gaining any exposure or connections or invites, the competition isn't any better than what you faced in High School, in many ways you'd get the same competition just playing Legion Ball for your high school in the summer, especially as a rising Soph facing rising Senior pitchers.  It is still "Travel Ball" but in all reality it is glorified Rec Ball with fancy uniforms.  The coaching at your high school is better than the average Travel Team anyways

This is (in my opinion) the reality of Travel Ball when you aren't located in a hotbed

Instead of spending $6000 to play for a team that helps get you nowhere, wouldn't it be much better to spend that money on training that would put you in a much better position to make the Top Teams 12 months from now?   $6000 could get you a lot of top quality hitting or pitching instruction, plus Speed & Agility training and/or strength training.   If your measureables improved enough in 10-11 months you could be in a position to attend (and have money left over to afford) Perfect Game Showcases and/or Headfirst or Stanford camps along with a few less expensive local/regional Showcases and College Camps in June/July/August of 2018, all while everyone else is battling it out in the 15U Daddy-Ball Deluxe Rinky Dink Tournaments

Am I missing something here?  If the 15U/16U/17U years are all about development & exposure why would you spend your limited budget on a team that'll get you neither?

 

See my PM please.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

1. Travel Team costs are $2700-$3500.  Add in 6-8 weekends of Gas & Hotel fees and you are pretty much at your yearly budget.  Maybe a little left over for position specific lessons (Hitting or Pitching) or Speed/Agility/Strength Training. These Travel Teams essentially have weekly practices from Nov through March around here.   High School season starts up in late March and kids play for their High School teams in April & May.   Travel Ball is just June/July.

So you are essentially topping out your budget for 4-5 months of weekly team practices plus 2 months of Tournaments.  Now if your kid is good enough to make one of the Top 3-4 Teams in the area, that means Perfect Game Tournaments, Area Code Invites, PBR Future Games invites etc, plus playing against the other top flight travel teams.   For your money you are getting great training, exposure, connections, and opportunities.

However, let's say your Kid isn't quite good enough yet to make one of those Top Teams.  He was on the bubble to make a Top Team but wasn't chosen.  Essentially all the rest of the dozens of teams in the region play each other in Tournaments that still require hotel stays, you are still spending the same amount of money, however the training can be more questionable, you aren't gaining any exposure or connections or invites, the competition isn't any better than what you faced in High School, in many ways you'd get the same competition just playing Legion Ball for your high school in the summer, especially as a rising Soph facing rising Senior pitchers.  It is still "Travel Ball" but in all reality it is glorified Rec Ball with fancy uniforms.  The coaching at your high school is better than the average Travel Team anyways

This is (in my opinion) the reality of Travel Ball when you aren't located in a hotbed

Instead of spending $6000 to play for a team that helps get you nowhere, wouldn't it be much better to spend that money on training that would put you in a much better position to make the Top Teams 12 months from now?   $6000 could get you a lot of top quality hitting or pitching instruction, plus Speed & Agility training and/or strength training.   If your measureables improved enough in 10-11 months you could be in a position to attend (and have money left over to afford) Perfect Game Showcases and/or Headfirst or Stanford camps along with a few less expensive local/regional Showcases and College Camps in June/July/August of 2018, all while everyone else is battling it out in the 15U Daddy-Ball Deluxe Rinky Dink Tournaments

Am I missing something here?  If the 15U/16U/17U years are all about development & exposure why would you spend your limited budget on a team that'll get you neither?

 

See my PM please.

my OTHER PM...

$6,000 seems like  A LOT of money to me. My son played on a travel team that cost about $1,000 a year, got him some lessons, practices, paid coaches at games, then we spent another $2,000 on travel, hotel rooms, tournaments etc.

As for off season — he did school's free strength and conditioning training. For baseball specific training, son convinced two retired college coaches to take him under their wings. They taught him technique so he didn't hurt himself, and the ability to experiment creatively with new pitches and find what worked for him. It cost us a couple of coolers of nice steaks at the end of each season.

Finally, he runs a local hitting facility during lessons and Little League practices for the owner. In exchange for that and a promise not to abuse the privilege — he gets a key.

Short answer is — what connections and resources do you have and is your son a person who demonstrates hard work and enthusiasm, which then inspires people to help him take advantage of those resources?

Iowamom23 posted:

what connections and resources do you have and is your son a person who demonstrates hard work and enthusiasm, which then inspires people to help him take advantage of those resources?

His hitting instructor is a former minor league pro who has done wonders for my son's hitting mechanics.   His lessons are reasonably priced and considering that my Kid's hit tool is probably the most advanced aspect of his game (we believe in working on both your strengths & weaknesses) we'd like to continue having him take lessons with this guy.  Our Kid is definitely a very hard working player.

Agree Golfman, the HS team is a priority for sure.  The HS coaching staff is similar to any travel program you would find in our state, if not much much better.  All the coaches including assistant coaches on all 3 levels (Freshman team, JV, and Varsity) have played at least D3 and a few of them D1.   

Consultant posted:

"Development" is learning the art of baseball organization.

Use your money form a team of other players in your area. Find a former pro player to coach, pay him. schedule games with older teams [ages 17-18], rent a 12 pass van play at local college fields.

 

Thanks.  We tried that at the younger ages and it didn't work.   Too many parents in our state that drink the "Kool Aid" that if a program says "Academy" after the name, its gonna help Little Johnny get to D1 or the MLB Draft and is worth paying $4000-$6000 a year for (after the travel/hotel expenses are added in).   As I said, 3 or 4 of the programs in our state are completely legit, with proven results.   The other 15+ programs?  Not worth the money

3and2Fastball posted:

Iowamom23 posted:

what connections and resources do you have and is your son a person who demonstrates hard work and enthusiasm, which then inspires people to help him take advantage of those resources?

His hitting instructor is a former minor league pro who has done wonders for my son's hitting mechanics.   His lessons are reasonably priced and considering that my Kid's hit tool is probably the most advanced aspect of his game (we believe in working on both your strengths & weaknesses) we'd like to continue having him take lessons with this guy.  Our Kid is definitely a very hard working player.

So what do you WANT out of this? And what does this mean?  

The coaching at your high school is better than the average Travel Team anyways

This is (in my opinion) the reality of Travel Ball when you aren't located in a hotbed

I'm curious cause I'm in Iowa, which definitely doesn't seem to be a hotbed, but I think we've been very lucky and very satisfied with the quality of travel teams and coaching we've been able to take advantage of. Son isn't looking at top tier D1, but some middle and lower D1s are looking at him, and that's okay with all of us.

I can't decide if you don't like your travel team options? Or have you decided to spend that money on development and just want someone to reinforce your decision?

IMO it seems like a lot of money, but if your travel options are that expensive, and it sounds like not what you want, then development probably is the best option for you and for your son.

Thanks IowaMom for your response.

Even though we're in neighboring states, there are some fairly significant differences in terms of Baseball between Iowa & Wisconsin, not the least of which is that Perfect Game is located in Iowa.

Both States only have one D1 school, but Iowa is in the Big Ten and UW-Milwaukee is a mid-major program.

I feel pretty strongly that the Top 3 Travel Programs in our state are worth the money, but that the rest are not and one would be better served, if they didn't make one of the top 3 programs, to  spend that money on lessons, training and camps/showcases to prepare themselves for tryouts the following year at the Top 3 programs

3and2Fastball posted:

Lets say you have a limited budget of $6000 for the 2018 15U year of Baseball (2021 Grad)

.........................................................

 

Am I missing something here?  If the 15U/16U/17U years are all about development & exposure why would you spend your limited budget on a team that'll get you neither?

 

3and2FB,

I've never lived in WI, so I'm not going to guess what the baseball environment is like there.   I agree with Golfman25 and I think you do as well....focus on HS baseball and further skill development then see where it takes your son.  You really haven't told us what your son wants to do beyond high school.   Is he hell bent on playing college baseball at any level?  How are his grades?  I bring this up because it is possible that money could be better spent in academic areas to enable him to get academic/athletic opportunitities that he would not have had otherwise....lots of really good D3 schools in the midwest.   Recruited = skill + exposure + persistence + luck.   As your son develops, then it may become more apparent where you should spend your resources.   As you've laid out the current situation there doesn't seem be any easy answers on where to spend your time and money.  So, I would proceed one step at a time

As your son develops his skills then possibly pursue an individual showcase or attend a nearby camp that test his skills.  Rinse and repeat.  If he is continually received well, then possibly take the next step of finding a regional or national level team that brings in that level of exposure.  

JMO.  Good luck!

3and2Fastball posted:

Consultant posted:

"Development" is learning the art of baseball organization.

Use your money form a team of other players in your area. Find a former pro player to coach, pay him. schedule games with older teams [ages 17-18], rent a 12 pass van play at local college fields.

 

Thanks.  We tried that at the younger ages and it didn't work.   Too many parents in our state that drink the "Kool Aid" that if a program says "Academy" after the name, its gonna help Little Johnny get to D1 or the MLB Draft and is worth paying $4000-$6000 a year for (after the travel/hotel expenses are added in).   As I said, 3 or 4 of the programs in our state are completely legit, with proven results.   The other 15+ programs?  Not worth the money

It's important to realize that the organization doesn't get the kid to D1.  The kid does that.   

I agree with the others, focus on HS baseball and getting better for now.

My biggest concern here is that I feel that parents spend too much money way too early.  

College is expensive, very. Don't spend unless you will see some positive results. Don't buy into the hype that if you don't get an offer now, no money will be left, that just isn't true in most cases.

JMO

fenwaysouth posted:

You really haven't told us what your son wants to do beyond high school.   Is he hell bent on playing college baseball at any level?  How are his grades?  I bring this up because it is possible that money could be better spent in academic areas to enable him to get academic/athletic opportunitities that he would not have had otherwise....lots of really good D3 schools in the midwest. 

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

His goal is to reach his full potential with Baseball and play after High School, wherever his skill level lands him.  He's the type of kid who would rather play at a small D3 or low level Juco than attend a prestigious D1 where he isn't on the Baseball roster.  He gets good grades.   We wouldn't hesitate to take money out of the Baseball budget and spend it on tutors etc if needed.

TPM posted:

---

My biggest concern here is that I feel that parents spend too much money way too early.  

 

I agree.   We have managed to avoid that up through 8th Grade/14U, either by having him play for smaller/non-Academy teams that don't travel much or, up through Age 11, just keeping him in the local Little League.

A kid can get exposure to the best travel organizations through competing against them. If he shows promise those organizations will pursue him in high school. Then there validation of what money should be spent where. 

Find the Charlie Lau book "How to hit .400" with George Brett.  ML hitters"lean back" to peak at the catcher's signs. Of course, the next pitch is "chin high"

Bob

Golfman25 posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Consultant posted:

"Development" is learning the art of baseball organization.

Use your money form a team of other players in your area. Find a former pro player to coach, pay him. schedule games with older teams [ages 17-18], rent a 12 pass van play at local college fields.

 

Thanks.  We tried that at the younger ages and it didn't work.   Too many parents in our state that drink the "Kool Aid" that if a program says "Academy" after the name, its gonna help Little Johnny get to D1 or the MLB Draft and is worth paying $4000-$6000 a year for (after the travel/hotel expenses are added in).   As I said, 3 or 4 of the programs in our state are completely legit, with proven results.   The other 15+ programs?  Not worth the money

It's important to realize that the organization doesn't get the kid to D1.  The kid does that.   

I agree, with the caveat of looking at the PG Underclass All American Game roster as an example of the influence a high school program or travel organization may have in getting kids looks. Look at how many of the players are playing for the same high schools and/or travel teams. For instance (and I will probably get beat up for this by PG Staff) on "Team California" there are four players from the same high school, three of them play for the same travel team. Another 6 players on Team California play for the same travel team. Team Central, two high school programs provided 6 players, 25% of Team Central's roster. I will let you draw your own conclusions, but my point is that connections matter. If is walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, sometimes it really is a duck (sorry desert duck, no offense meant).

Are these kids all good baseball players? Yes. But to the bigger point, and back to 3and2's point, some organizations have more "cache" with colleges and/or showcase organizations than others. Yes, great players will seek out those organizations that can get them looks, and likewise those organizations are always recruiting the next great player, but lets not kid ourselves...it matters what team you are on for looks. If kid "A" is on "Team Schmukatelli" and goes to PG WWBA, they get scheduled probably 1 game at LakePoint during pool play. Teams that have more cache and ranked players, well frankly they get more games at LP, and therefore more exposure. Get on a team that makes the cut for bracket play and guess what, you are playing at LP...i.e. more exposure.

My belief is that looks matter. If your kid is a strong player, do what you can to get them in a larger program that plays in National tournaments. Helps if they are a starter as well. Case in point (not gonna name names or year groups because enterprising people on here will do the research and figure out who it is and then I will get reamed for "naming names".) Recent WWBA event, kid is a good player but not a varsity player. Travel team is held in high regard for getting kids drafted and/or on college rosters. Team asks several colleges to come by and check out their kids during the WWBA. Kid has an out of body experience during two WWBA weeks and gets an offer from a SEC program that NOBODY saw coming prior to the WWBA events. His team had him batting in the 1-hole to get him the most looks possible at the plate (16 games played, 57 plate appearances, 19 singles, 2 doubles). That convergence of events (kid playing well, colleges in attendance) didn't happen by accident. I give the kid credit, he went off on a hot streak at the right time. I give the travel team credit for having the right connections to have college coaches there to see it happen. But it wasn't dumb luck. Connections matter. And yes, the offer came after the 15U WWBA.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

some organizations have more "cache" with colleges and/or showcase organizations than others. Yes, great players will seek out those organizations that can get them looks, and likewise those organizations are always recruiting the next great player, but lets not kid ourselves...it matters what team you are on for looks.

Yes, indeed.  As I've mentioned there are the "Top 3 Programs" in our state around here and then a wide gap with everyone else.   It is very very rare to get an Area Code tryout if you aren't part of the Top 3 programs, for instance.  Most of the programs in Wisconsin never play WWBA/Perfect Game either.  The kids who play in the PBR Future Games all come from the same 3 or 4 programs, for the most part

I actually asked one of the directors of a different Travel Program that question point blank:  "do you guys do Perfect Game events?"

His response?  "These kids are almost all future D3 players at best.   There is no point in it. "

I give him credit for being honest about it.... however last I checked lots of D3 programs scout Perfect Game.  

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Golfman25 posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Consultant posted:

"Development" is learning the art of baseball organization.

Use your money form a team of other players in your area. Find a former pro player to coach, pay him. schedule games with older teams [ages 17-18], rent a 12 pass van play at local college fields.

 

Thanks.  We tried that at the younger ages and it didn't work.   Too many parents in our state that drink the "Kool Aid" that if a program says "Academy" after the name, its gonna help Little Johnny get to D1 or the MLB Draft and is worth paying $4000-$6000 a year for (after the travel/hotel expenses are added in).   As I said, 3 or 4 of the programs in our state are completely legit, with proven results.   The other 15+ programs?  Not worth the money

It's important to realize that the organization doesn't get the kid to D1.  The kid does that.   

But to the bigger point, and back to 3and2's point, some organizations have more "cache" with colleges and/or showcase organizations than others. Yes, great players will seek out those organizations that can get them looks, and likewise those organizations are always recruiting the next great player, but lets not kid ourselves...it matters what team you are on for looks. If kid "A" is on "Team Schmukatelli" and goes to PG WWBA, they get scheduled probably 1 game at LakePoint during pool play. Teams that have more cache and ranked players, well frankly they get more games at LP, and therefore more exposure. Get on a team that makes the cut for bracket play and guess what, you are playing at LP...i.e. more exposure.

But not everyone is shooting for the SEC. There are lots of quality baseball programs at lots of levels. It you want the SEC, then sure, invest in teams that go to the WWBA and all of the rest of it (but make sure you have the skill first to at least get into the program) but if you don't, then pick a decent team, work hard at reaching out to coaches and promoting yourself, get to a couple of decent showcases where the schools you like will be and good things will happen.

My 2018 went that route. He has two D1 offers so far and is talking to another couple of schools that may present offers, plus a handful of D2, D3 and Juco offers and interest. He will have a choice among good programs and good schools of various sizes and backgrounds. And we're in Iowa, with a decent but not outstanding travel team — about all we have going for us is having PG in the state, and we're just taking advantage of that this year. 

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Golfman25 posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Consultant posted:

"Development" is learning the art of baseball organization.

Use your money form a team of other players in your area. Find a former pro player to coach, pay him. schedule games with older teams [ages 17-18], rent a 12 pass van play at local college fields.

 

Thanks.  We tried that at the younger ages and it didn't work.   Too many parents in our state that drink the "Kool Aid" that if a program says "Academy" after the name, its gonna help Little Johnny get to D1 or the MLB Draft and is worth paying $4000-$6000 a year for (after the travel/hotel expenses are added in).   As I said, 3 or 4 of the programs in our state are completely legit, with proven results.   The other 15+ programs?  Not worth the money

It's important to realize that the organization doesn't get the kid to D1.  The kid does that.   

I agree, with the caveat of looking at the PG Underclass All American Game roster as an example of the influence a high school program or travel organization may have in getting kids looks. Look at how many of the players are playing for the same high schools and/or travel teams. For instance (and I will probably get beat up for this by PG Staff) on "Team California" there are four players from the same high school, three of them play for the same travel team. Another 6 players on Team California play for the same travel team. Team Central, two high school programs provided 6 players, 25% of Team Central's roster. I will let you draw your own conclusions, but my point is that connections matter. If is walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, sometimes it really is a duck (sorry desert duck, no offense meant).

Are these kids all good baseball players? Yes. But to the bigger point, and back to 3and2's point, some organizations have more "cache" with colleges and/or showcase organizations than others. Yes, great players will seek out those organizations that can get them looks, and likewise those organizations are always recruiting the next great player, but lets not kid ourselves...it matters what team you are on for looks. If kid "A" is on "Team Schmukatelli" and goes to PG WWBA, they get scheduled probably 1 game at LakePoint during pool play. Teams that have more cache and ranked players, well frankly they get more games at LP, and therefore more exposure. Get on a team that makes the cut for bracket play and guess what, you are playing at LP...i.e. more exposure.

My belief is that looks matter. If your kid is a strong player, do what you can to get them in a larger program that plays in National tournaments. Helps if they are a starter as well. Case in point (not gonna name names or year groups because enterprising people on here will do the research and figure out who it is and then I will get reamed for "naming names".) Recent WWBA event, kid is a good player but not a varsity player. Travel team is held in high regard for getting kids drafted and/or on college rosters. Team asks several colleges to come by and check out their kids during the WWBA. Kid has an out of body experience during two WWBA weeks and gets an offer from a SEC program that NOBODY saw coming prior to the WWBA events. His team had him batting in the 1-hole to get him the most looks possible at the plate (16 games played, 57 plate appearances, 19 singles, 2 doubles). That convergence of events (kid playing well, colleges in attendance) didn't happen by accident. I give the kid credit, he went off on a hot streak at the right time. I give the travel team credit for having the right connections to have college coaches there to see it happen. But it wasn't dumb luck. Connections matter. And yes, the offer came after the 15U WWBA.

You are very right. Connections matter. But these teams come looking for the best players. Players can't force their way on to these teams. I see too many parents spending way too much money trying to work their kid up to a situation that does not fit. These are the parents (fish) who bite the bait hook and end up complaining. 

It can be hard for players and parents to listen to people who know the game telling them the kid is at this level, not that level. Some still go forth in an attempt to spend money and purchase talent. Talent can't be purchased. It can only be developed and refined. There has to be something there to develop and refine.

3and2Fastball posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

some organizations have more "cache" with colleges and/or showcase organizations than others. Yes, great players will seek out those organizations that can get them looks, and likewise those organizations are always recruiting the next great player, but lets not kid ourselves...it matters what team you are on for looks.

Yes, indeed.  As I've mentioned there are the "Top 3 Programs" in our state around here and then a wide gap with everyone else.   It is very very rare to get an Area Code tryout if you aren't part of the Top 3 programs, for instance.  Most of the programs in Wisconsin never play WWBA/Perfect Game either.  The kids who play in the PBR Future Games all come from the same 3 or 4 programs, for the most part

I actually asked one of the directors of a different Travel Program that question point blank:  "do you guys do Perfect Game events?"

His response?  "These kids are almost all future D3 players at best.   There is no point in it. "

I give him credit for being honest about it.... however last I checked lots of D3 programs scout Perfect Game.  

My perception is the D3 teams at PG events are the top D3 programs looking for mid major talent willing to drop down. There are plenty of kids playing NESCAC (D3) who could play mid major D1. But they made a long term academic decision to attend a top academic that will get them to Wall Street or a top grad school. In the meantime they get to play a decent brand of ball.

Iowamom23 posted:

 

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Golfman25 posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Consultant posted:

"Development" is learning the art of baseball organization.

Use your money form a team of other players in your area. Find a former pro player to coach, pay him. schedule games with older teams [ages 17-18], rent a 12 pass van play at local college fields.

 

Thanks.  We tried that at the younger ages and it didn't work.   Too many parents in our state that drink the "Kool Aid" that if a program says "Academy" after the name, its gonna help Little Johnny get to D1 or the MLB Draft and is worth paying $4000-$6000 a year for (after the travel/hotel expenses are added in).   As I said, 3 or 4 of the programs in our state are completely legit, with proven results.   The other 15+ programs?  Not worth the money

It's important to realize that the organization doesn't get the kid to D1.  The kid does that.   

But to the bigger point, and back to 3and2's point, some organizations have more "cache" with colleges and/or showcase organizations than others. Yes, great players will seek out those organizations that can get them looks, and likewise those organizations are always recruiting the next great player, but lets not kid ourselves...it matters what team you are on for looks. If kid "A" is on "Team Schmukatelli" and goes to PG WWBA, they get scheduled probably 1 game at LakePoint during pool play. Teams that have more cache and ranked players, well frankly they get more games at LP, and therefore more exposure. Get on a team that makes the cut for bracket play and guess what, you are playing at LP...i.e. more exposure.

But not everyone is shooting for the SEC. There are lots of quality baseball programs at lots of levels. It you want the SEC, then sure, invest in teams that go to the WWBA and all of the rest of it (but make sure you have the skill first to at least get into the program) but if you don't, then pick a decent team, work hard at reaching out to coaches and promoting yourself, get to a couple of decent showcases where the schools you like will be and good things will happen.

My 2018 went that route. He has two D1 offers so far and is talking to another couple of schools that may present offers, plus a handful of D2, D3 and Juco offers and interest. He will have a choice among good programs and good schools of various sizes and backgrounds. And we're in Iowa, with a decent but not outstanding travel team — about all we have going for us is having PG in the state, and we're just taking advantage of that this year. 

My point is that nobody who knows this kid would have thought in a million years he was going to get an offer by an SEC school.

RJM posted:

It can be hard for players and parents to listen to people who know the game telling them the kid is at this level, not that level. Some still go forth in an attempt to spend money and purchase talent. Talent can't be purchased. It can only be developed and refined. There has to be something there to develop and refine.

Well said.... what is tough at this age group (rising Freshman now/15U in the summer of 2018) is trying to figure out how much is "left in the tank" as far as growth & development and what level a player is at.... I'll give 2 examples:

Kid I coached who is undersized at age 14 (currently 5'5" 110 pounds) but blazing fast (ran a 6.9 sixty) and has a truly amazing glove.  Average arm strength.  Doesn't currently have the strength to consistently hit with BBCOR.  Didn't make one of the Top 3 teams in our state.  Now, we don't know what size he'll end up, but both parents played college sports and if he develops more and grows taller, with his speed he could certainly be in the D1 radar.   Doubt he'll even play JV as a Freshman.  For all we know he'll never be more than a pinch-runner/defensive specialist in High School.   My advice to his parents would be "you'd be better off investing in strength training and hitting instruction than paying $4000 for a below average travel team."

My kid at 14 is already 5'11"/close to 6 feet and 180 pounds.  Been swinging BBCOR for a year now.  We've been told by multiple college coaches and former pros that he has a great swing, that the bat alone can get him playing after high school it is just a matter of where.  He'll probably end up being anywhere between 6'2" and 6'4".   But he's still running the 60 in 8 something.   Maybe he'll never develop enough speed and he'll have to either learn to play Catcher or really develop the hit tool and play 1B.  

The High School coaches still see him as a SS/2B.  We'll see.   He has quickness.  His 10 yard split times would put him in the upper percentile for his age at Perfect Game.   Travel Teams don't measure 10 yard split times at tryouts.   It just is what it is.   If he doesn't make one of top Travel Teams I'd rather invest that money in Speed & Agility training than play for a lesser team.  See if he can develop the speed to where he can easily make a Top Team a year from now....

There is a summer High School league that plays 11 Double-Headers on weeknights.   It is mostly small town teams but for my kid who will be a rising Soph next summer he'd be facing mostly rising Senior & Junior pitching.   Cost would be $150.   Leaves a lot of money for training or savings for college or academic tutors etc.... that combined with playing Summer Legion for his High School would get him plenty of game reps vs competition not much different than if we paid thousands for a lower level 15U team

I know too many D1 commits that didn't play for the top travel teams.  Granted they aren't SEC or BIG10 programs, but D1 nonetheless. 

Golfman25 posted:

I know too many D1 commits that didn't play for the top travel teams.  Granted they aren't SEC or BIG10 programs, but D1 nonetheless. 

A lot of the top travel teams like to "advertise" (after the fact) that they are responsible for getting kids their college playing opportunities. In most cases they are not. The kids get those opportunties with their talent - and maybe a helpful phone call or two. In fact, I believe the kids (unknowingly) do more to support the travel organizations than the other way around. Just my opinion - after having been involved in travel ball for 10 years as both a coach and a parent.  

SanDiegoRealist posted:

My point is that nobody who knows this kid would have thought in a million years he was going to get an offer by an SEC school.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

My point is that nobody who knows this kid would have thought in a million years he was going to get an offer by an SEC school.

I assume that you're looking at this from the perspective of a parent trying to help his son get recruited. My perspective comes from knowing dozens of kids who have gone through this process. I see two likely outcomes from your example recruit. 1) He is a developing athletic specimen, and smart college coaches can see that, and he will quickly earn playing time at his SEC school (or get drafted out of high school). 2) His recent success was an anomaly and his game will never play at the level that his SEC school requires.

 

IMO, getting the SEC offer is not the measure of success. Getting on the field and playing college ball at the right level, with the least amount of disruption to your academic pursuits is a better measure success to me.

 

JMO, but I doubt the recruiter really cared about the kid hitting .370 at a couple of tournaments. He saw much more than that. Probably consistent hard contact, projectable strength and speed, quick feet, strong arm, etc. If he didn't see those things, or his projection is wrong, the kid will probably never play there or maybe not even get on campus.

 

I definitely agree with you that connections matter. My point is simply that too often the fruits of those connections are not what's best for the player. And very few of the guys who really belong at the upper echelon of college baseball get missed by the top schools regardless of which travel team they play with. I actually think those travel team connections are much more valuable at lower levels of college baseball, where there are lots of guys at similar levels of talent.

MidAtlanticDad,  my perspective comes from the same place as yours and I want to tag on to what you said.  An unrealistic assessment (by parents and/or player) of a kid's abilities is the most common problem that I see. Unless you are being contacted by MLB scouts about the potential of being drafted, you don't have the talent to play in the SEC. That's just reality.  Many people don't realize that a high percentage of each recruiting class that reports to a D1 power program never sees the field at that school. They bounce down to D2, D3, and JUCO. It often takes a semester or 2 for that to happen.  IMO, once you get past the upper echelon of talent it is difficult to separate the other very good players. That's why the increase in over-recruiting at so many schools.  They want 3 months to evaluate players before they decide who they really want. And even when a kid plays on a well known travel team, attends some high profile events (where all the scouts are watching -sometimes), has a good PG ranking, etc. - there is no guarantee that you get the expected results. Here is a case in point & while it is surely the exception it merits consideration. An old teammate of mine is one of the most successful HS coaches in our state (just won state championship). He has been a college HC in JUCO & D1 but has been back in HS for past few years. Couple of years ago he had a player that fit the bill I described above. Kid played 2 sports (football), played on nationally known travel team, had good PG ranking, made all tournament at WWBA 16u & 17u - and he was still lightly recruited. HS coach called a HC at a Big 12 school (that he knew) and suggested that he take this kid because everybody had missed on him.  Big 12 coach listened and that kid started 55 games and hit over .300 as a freshman.  HS coaches with credibility can do things like that. If you happen to play for a HS with one of those count your lucky stars!!

OP- Spend $5000 on quality training and save 1,000 to take your son to a reputable showcase. "Train more than you play" 5 to 1 ratio is what my son uses...5 instances of training for every 1 instance of playing.

adbono posted:

Golfman25 posted:

I know too many D1 commits that didn't play for the top travel teams.  Granted they aren't SEC or BIG10 programs, but D1 nonetheless. 

A lot of the top travel teams like to "advertise" (after the fact) that they are responsible for getting kids their college playing opportunities. In most cases they are not. The kids get those opportunties with their talent - and maybe a helpful phone call or two. In fact, I believe the kids (unknowingly) do more to support the travel organizations than the other way around. Just my opinion - after having been involved in travel ball for 10 years as both a coach and a parent.  

Take a couple of lessons at a facility when you're twelve and they will claim you in their college ball placement.

adbono posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

My point is that nobody who knows this kid would have thought in a million years he was going to get an offer by an SEC school.

I assume that you're looking at this from the perspective of a parent trying to help his son get recruited. My perspective comes from knowing dozens of kids who have gone through this process. I see two likely outcomes from your example recruit. 1) He is a developing athletic specimen, and smart college coaches can see that, and he will quickly earn playing time at his SEC school (or get drafted out of high school). 2) His recent success was an anomaly and his game will never play at the level that his SEC school requires.

 

IMO, getting the SEC offer is not the measure of success. Getting on the field and playing college ball at the right level, with the least amount of disruption to your academic pursuits is a better measure success to me.

 

JMO, but I doubt the recruiter really cared about the kid hitting .370 at a couple of tournaments. He saw much more than that. Probably consistent hard contact, projectable strength and speed, quick feet, strong arm, etc. If he didn't see those things, or his projection is wrong, the kid will probably never play there or maybe not even get on campus.

 

I definitely agree with you that connections matter. My point is simply that too often the fruits of those connections are not what's best for the player. And very few of the guys who really belong at the upper echelon of college baseball get missed by the top schools regardless of which travel team they play with. I actually think those travel team connections are much more valuable at lower levels of college baseball, where there are lots of guys at similar levels of talent.

MidAtlanticDad,  my perspective comes from the same place as yours and I want to tag on to what you said.  An unrealistic assessment (by parents and/or player) of a kid's abilities is the most common problem that I see. Unless you are being contacted by MLB scouts about the potential of being drafted, you don't have the talent to play in the SEC. That's just reality.  Many people don't realize that a high percentage of each recruiting class that reports to a D1 power program never sees the field at that school. They bounce down to D2, D3, and JUCO. It often takes a semester or 2 for that to happen.  IMO, once you get past the upper echelon of talent it is difficult to separate the other very good players. That's why the increase in over-recruiting at so many schools.  They want 3 months to evaluate players before they decide who they really want. And even when a kid plays on a well known travel team, attends some high profile events (where all the scouts are watching -sometimes), has a good PG ranking, etc. - there is no guarantee that you get the expected results. Here is a case in point & while it is surely the exception it merits consideration. An old teammate of mine is one of the most successful HS coaches in our state (just won state championship). He has been a college HC in JUCO & D1 but has been back in HS for past few years. Couple of years ago he had a player that fit the bill I described above. Kid played 2 sports (football), played on nationally known travel team, had good PG ranking, made all tournament at WWBA 16u & 17u - and he was still lightly recruited. HS coach called a HC at a Big 12 school (that he knew) and suggested that he take this kid because everybody had missed on him.  Big 12 coach listened and that kid started 55 games and hit over .300 as a freshman.  HS coaches with credibility can do things like that. If you happen to play for a HS with one of those count your lucky stars!!

Re: Unrealistic assessment by parents and kids. After a "reach" commitment the kid is off at college having to determine on his own (without parents) if he's in the wrong place and needs to transfer. Or will he get a legitimate shot next year.

Anyone who heads to college ball at a high level has the draft in the back of their mind when they enter college. They can't wait two years to decide to transfer. The player doesn't want to be sitting out his draft year due to transfer. Then he has no choice but go down to D2 or D3.

RJM posted:

adbono posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

My point is that nobody who knows this kid would have thought in a million years he was going to get an offer by an SEC school.

I assume that you're looking at this from the perspective of a parent trying to help his son get recruited. My perspective comes from knowing dozens of kids who have gone through this process. I see two likely outcomes from your example recruit. 1) He is a developing athletic specimen, and smart college coaches can see that, and he will quickly earn playing time at his SEC school (or get drafted out of high school). 2) His recent success was an anomaly and his game will never play at the level that his SEC school requires.

 

IMO, getting the SEC offer is not the measure of success. Getting on the field and playing college ball at the right level, with the least amount of disruption to your academic pursuits is a better measure success to me.

 

JMO, but I doubt the recruiter really cared about the kid hitting .370 at a couple of tournaments. He saw much more than that. Probably consistent hard contact, projectable strength and speed, quick feet, strong arm, etc. If he didn't see those things, or his projection is wrong, the kid will probably never play there or maybe not even get on campus.

 

I definitely agree with you that connections matter. My point is simply that too often the fruits of those connections are not what's best for the player. And very few of the guys who really belong at the upper echelon of college baseball get missed by the top schools regardless of which travel team they play with. I actually think those travel team connections are much more valuable at lower levels of college baseball, where there are lots of guys at similar levels of talent.

MidAtlanticDad,  my perspective comes from the same place as yours and I want to tag on to what you said.  An unrealistic assessment (by parents and/or player) of a kid's abilities is the most common problem that I see. Unless you are being contacted by MLB scouts about the potential of being drafted, you don't have the talent to play in the SEC. That's just reality.  Many people don't realize that a high percentage of each recruiting class that reports to a D1 power program never sees the field at that school. They bounce down to D2, D3, and JUCO. It often takes a semester or 2 for that to happen.  IMO, once you get past the upper echelon of talent it is difficult to separate the other very good players. That's why the increase in over-recruiting at so many schools.  They want 3 months to evaluate players before they decide who they really want. And even when a kid plays on a well known travel team, attends some high profile events (where all the scouts are watching -sometimes), has a good PG ranking, etc. - there is no guarantee that you get the expected results. Here is a case in point & while it is surely the exception it merits consideration. An old teammate of mine is one of the most successful HS coaches in our state (just won state championship). He has been a college HC in JUCO & D1 but has been back in HS for past few years. Couple of years ago he had a player that fit the bill I described above. Kid played 2 sports (football), played on nationally known travel team, had good PG ranking, made all tournament at WWBA 16u & 17u - and he was still lightly recruited. HS coach called a HC at a Big 12 school (that he knew) and suggested that he take this kid because everybody had missed on him.  Big 12 coach listened and that kid started 55 games and hit over .300 as a freshman.  HS coaches with credibility can do things like that. If you happen to play for a HS with one of those count your lucky stars!!

Re: Unfealistic assessment by parents and kids. After a "reach" commitment the kid is off at college having to determine on his own (without parents) if he's in the wrong place and needs to transfer. Or will he get a legitimate shot next year.

Anyone who heads to college ball at a high level has the draft in the back of their mind when they enter college. They can't wait two years to decide to transfer. The player doesn't want to be sitting out his draft year due to transfer. Then he has no choice but go down to D2 or D3.

Met yesterday with a D2 coach who had three D1 transfers coming in next year as seniors from some big programs. We wondered why, and this makes it make sense. Also, makes me think a little differently about some of the schools courting my son. Fun to have some "big dogs" in the race, but maybe smarter in the long run to go where he knows he fits, knows he will play, and knows he can get better.

Iowa Mom; there are many stories of the young player's road map to success.

A local LHP from Santa Rosa received a athletic scholarship to Pepperdine U.; an excellent school for Academics and Baseball with a "beautiful" baseball field elevated above the Pacific Ocean.

After two years, he transferred to Sonoma State U [D-2] and was drafted after his Junior year. This week he pitched for the KC Royals in a ML game. "The road to your dream may have a few detours.

Learn to make adjustments with coaches, teammates, programs and personal opinions.

Nothing is automatic. No guarantees. When we travel to Australia, I will make NO promises to the American players, except to report the evaluations from our pro scouts/coaches from the 12 game schedule.

Bob

Consultant posted:

Iowa Mom; there are many stories of the young player's road map to success.

A local LHP from Santa Rosa received a athletic scholarship to Pepperdine U.; an excellent school for Academics and Baseball with a "beautiful" baseball field elevated above the Pacific Ocean.

After two years, he transferred to Sonoma State U [D-2] and was drafted after his Junior year. This week he pitched for the KC Royals in a ML game. "The road to your dream may have a few detours.

Learn to make adjustments with coaches, teammates, programs and personal opinions.

Nothing is automatic. No guarantees. When we travel to Australia, I will make NO promises to the American players, except to report the evaluations from our pro scouts/coaches from the 12 game schedule.

Bob

 

 

 

I agree. Sometimes I feel like people think they can buy their way to success with higher dollar travel teams, "better" lessons or a more high profile D1 college. Since I'm new to all this, I felt very inadequate when I started coming to this site.

Now I've realized that my son is making his own success, and while the outside stuff (travel ball, lessons, etc.) we've provided have helped him improve, the truth is — coaches are looking at him and what he does on the field, not at his resume.