The big shame is that players not even involved will come out losers as the result of the cheating.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?k...s_01_05_10_ncaa_news
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Q,
Losers in what regard? The worthy ones got an education and that will always top wins, loses, or forfeits of college games. The real loser is the ego of FSU administration, the perception of the Univ by it's peers, future recruiting, and that was long over due IMO.
95% of true student/athletes go to school for the degree the others go chasing the elusive money ball, the winners are carrying paper when all is said and done.
Losers in what regard? The worthy ones got an education and that will always top wins, loses, or forfeits of college games. The real loser is the ego of FSU administration, the perception of the Univ by it's peers, future recruiting, and that was long over due IMO.
95% of true student/athletes go to school for the degree the others go chasing the elusive money ball, the winners are carrying paper when all is said and done.
Scholarship reductions will hurt current and future ball players.
That schollie money usually makes the difference in being able to afford that diploma.
That schollie money usually makes the difference in being able to afford that diploma.
I see your point Q if existing student/athletes are affected. However, any future players looking at FSU I'm sure will have alternative options at other schools with the same scholly benis.
I had one huge problem with that story ESPN did on the FSU deal. They tried to make that one kid look real dumb; he did wind up getting a degree and then they said that he works at a facility helping disadvantaged adults; a job you only need a high school diploma for.
The kid is going to work every day, earning a living... why is that any different than putting on a $700 suit and reading the flipping hockey scores on ESPN2??? a high school grad could do that too.
I really thought it was a cheap shot and uncalled for.
The kid is going to work every day, earning a living... why is that any different than putting on a $700 suit and reading the flipping hockey scores on ESPN2??? a high school grad could do that too.
I really thought it was a cheap shot and uncalled for.
Skip,
Unfortunately every story has a sacrificial lamb, and that kid, who I commend for sticking with getting an "education" after suffering his whole life trying to get by was that lamb. Bottom line, FSU got caught abusing the system. My question is how many kids who qualified academically, and had similar skills, were turned away because of "project-ability" and those who were "hired guns" skated through a system that should have rewarded those achieving educational standards?
Unfortunately every story has a sacrificial lamb, and that kid, who I commend for sticking with getting an "education" after suffering his whole life trying to get by was that lamb. Bottom line, FSU got caught abusing the system. My question is how many kids who qualified academically, and had similar skills, were turned away because of "project-ability" and those who were "hired guns" skated through a system that should have rewarded those achieving educational standards?
BTW, The kid was probably rewarded monetarily by ESPN for that story.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
95% of true student/athletes go to school for the degree the others go chasing the elusive money ball, the winners are carrying paper when all is said and done.
IMO that number is a little high. I would say over half of my college football team new they had no chance of playing pro nor cared at all about a degree. They just wanted to play ball for a few more years. Not all the athletes that don't have pro aspirations are in college for a degree.
This is not new news about FSU, during the recruiting phase we were told by some coaches to stay away from FSU, though not certain if this problem existed on the baseball team but rather they were not sure what the real goal of the athletic department was, turn out winning teams with players that will graduate, or just focus on winning teams.
My player left before earning his degree, I still consider him a winner, and never did he qualify as not being a student athlete, with a GPA well over 3 he worked hard in the classroom and was required to maintain a certain academic standard for himself and his team, and that was something that was very attractive in the recruiting process (their commitment to the student athlete).
I do beleive that more student athletes care about earning their degrees than as suggested by coach scotty. But I also agree that many student athletes in some sports enter college with thoughts of later continuing playing beyond the college game.
Check out CJ Spiller, a definite very early round pick for the NFL draft, he earned his degree in 3 years and working towards another.
My player left before earning his degree, I still consider him a winner, and never did he qualify as not being a student athlete, with a GPA well over 3 he worked hard in the classroom and was required to maintain a certain academic standard for himself and his team, and that was something that was very attractive in the recruiting process (their commitment to the student athlete).
I do beleive that more student athletes care about earning their degrees than as suggested by coach scotty. But I also agree that many student athletes in some sports enter college with thoughts of later continuing playing beyond the college game.
Check out CJ Spiller, a definite very early round pick for the NFL draft, he earned his degree in 3 years and working towards another.
quote:Originally posted by coach scotty:
[QUOTE]IMO that number is a little high. I would say over half of my college football team new they had no chance of playing pro nor cared at all about a degree.
Come on Scotty, are you saying that half of your team would not have gone to college if football was not part of the equation?
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Originally posted by coach scotty:
[QUOTE]IMO that number is a little high. I would say over half of my college football team new they had no chance of playing pro nor cared at all about a degree.
Come on Scotty, are you saying that half of your team would not have gone to college if football was not part of the equation?
Yes I am. Now most of the guys on the baseball team were in collage for a reason but yes I would say it might even be a low estimate that half of the 110 players on the team had no desire for a degree and less than half of them got one. Heck most of us (yes me included) were there to drink beer and play football a few more years before having to get a rel job. Fortunately for me I eventually wised up and got my degree but that was not my original intention in going.
I think a lot of people would be shocked at the number of collage athletes just going to school for the heck of it. Especially in football and basketball.
Wasn't it a coach at Arkansas that never had a basketball player of his graduate. You can't tell me the kids ridding the bench thought they were going pro. I believe it was Nolan Richardson or something like that.
Coach,
You need to do some homework, it isn't that way anymore, even in football.
You need to do some homework, it isn't that way anymore, even in football.
coach,
Did you get your degree from the same 'collage' as Dexter Manly?
I'm sure that the more generous football and basketball scholarships cut even more players will miss out on the chance for a college education.
Baseball being the ugly step-child of scholarships at 11.5 will be hurt most in my view.
Did you get your degree from the same 'collage' as Dexter Manly?
I'm sure that the more generous football and basketball scholarships cut even more players will miss out on the chance for a college education.
Baseball being the ugly step-child of scholarships at 11.5 will be hurt most in my view.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Coach,
You need to do some homework, it isn't that way anymore, even in football.
Is there proof to go with this statement or an opinion?
I don't think it's as high as Coach Scotty is saying but for every four schools with high grad rates there is one that is terrible. I think overall the football grad rate is like 77%. Overall in all sports its something like 79%. Of course it also depends on your definition of what good is. When you factor in the whole country and 23% don't graduate in 6 years that ends up being A LOT of people.
I have no idea how it is now because I am not there. But my experience is very similar to Coach Scotty's. At least half the guys were in college to play football. Getting a degree was something they would get if they were lucky. It was not a concern for many. It was simply an opportunity to continue to play the game they loved to play. They went to class , did enough work , just to stay elgible so they could play.
It may be much different now I have no idea I am not there. But when I was in college playing football this is exactly what I experienced. If it were not for football many would have not been in college.
It may be much different now I have no idea I am not there. But when I was in college playing football this is exactly what I experienced. If it were not for football many would have not been in college.
I am numb with these thoughts and numbers. I would have thought that most athletes who worked hard enough to get the opportunity to play college sports would also see the advantage of an education. Maybe it's my baseball "tunnel-vision" but I'm going to amend my belief that HS athletes in general are the mold of tomorrows leaders. It's time for rz1 to take off the rose colored glasses.
Solution for the athlete only in school to play a sport.... Jack up and closely monitor the academic gpa's for participation. If you want to be a student/athlete you will find a way to make the cut, just like they had to do in their sport. If you don't; find your adult life "nitch" and clear the slot for someone who wants to be there to learn and compete.
The NCAA should hire an "academic cop" stationed at every school and he/she should spend 40 hours a week chasing "bottom dwelling" athletes and give them the boot. It's a privilage and academic opportunity to play college sports, not a post HS recess.
Solution for the athlete only in school to play a sport.... Jack up and closely monitor the academic gpa's for participation. If you want to be a student/athlete you will find a way to make the cut, just like they had to do in their sport. If you don't; find your adult life "nitch" and clear the slot for someone who wants to be there to learn and compete.
The NCAA should hire an "academic cop" stationed at every school and he/she should spend 40 hours a week chasing "bottom dwelling" athletes and give them the boot. It's a privilage and academic opportunity to play college sports, not a post HS recess.
Honestly rz1 I might have been one of the guys you would want the cop to kick out. I went to college just so I could play baseball. I knew I was going to graduate in something but I just had no idea what it was and had no real desire to get it done quickly. Luckily I discovered coaching rather early and it got me on track and focused.
You're right that it's an honor / privilege to play sports and get that education but not sure what to do about it. With college sports being such huge money makers and the fed gov trying to make everyone college material how do you enforce whatever you come up with?
The sad yet good news is that the 77% I quoted up above is showing a trend towards the number getting higher. So hopefully in a couple of years it will be around 85% or but it also shows how bad it was just a few years ago.
You're right that it's an honor / privilege to play sports and get that education but not sure what to do about it. With college sports being such huge money makers and the fed gov trying to make everyone college material how do you enforce whatever you come up with?
The sad yet good news is that the 77% I quoted up above is showing a trend towards the number getting higher. So hopefully in a couple of years it will be around 85% or but it also shows how bad it was just a few years ago.
quote:Coach2709 quote:
I knew I was going to graduate in something but I just had no idea what it was and had no real desire to get it done quickly.
But you did know there would be an end to the rainbow, and there was effort to get it done
Coach or any one else offended.....it was not personal or pointed attack......just venting.
In the last 30 years I been involved with probably 50-60 kids who have gone on to school to play various sports and only a small handfull have not completed a degree or are in the process of. Maybe it's the "PC" and white collar area I live in but our athletes are expected to fulfill what they had started in HS. Maybe this is because the area is sometimes more academically competitive than athletically competetive. Granted, I don't have the complete list of those who fell short, and I'm sure my numbers would go down if I did. Also as Coach mentioned "times are a changin" and hopfully that graduation number continues to rise.
You sometimes wonder if that "dumb jock" label carries more weight than we want to believe. If I was a serious student I may have some strong feelings in that regard.
rz,
take off those rose colored glasses
There have been college stars who have graduated and gone on to professional careers who could niether read nor spell.
Just as bad are some of these majors that have been recently created.
What ever happened to a degree in Physical Education for athletes who were somewhat challenged?
take off those rose colored glasses
There have been college stars who have graduated and gone on to professional careers who could niether read nor spell.
Just as bad are some of these majors that have been recently created.
What ever happened to a degree in Physical Education for athletes who were somewhat challenged?
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
rz,
take off those rose colored glasses
There have been college stars who have graduated and gone on to professional careers who could niether read nor spell.
Just as bad are some of these majors that have been recently created.
What ever happened to a degree in Physical Education for athletes who were somewhat challenged?
I have a solution
1. Use the existing entrance requirements.
2. Student/Athletes can still follow the traditional educational path followed by academic only student.
3. Eliminate the Bullshet degrees that cater to the "dumb jock" and non-worthy student/athlete
The kicker....
For those athletes who are there for sport only require 4 full time years of General Study classes HS level and up. If that athlete completes 4 full year curriculum they would get a Bachelors of Football (or whatever sport) degree from that University. The pluses are extensive.
1. The athlete has 4 yrs of core knowledge that can be applied to whatever he does after sports
2. Society is not smoke screened by an athlete who claims an academic degree but cannot spell
3. That athlete can expand on that degree with those transferable credits.
4. The athlete leaves college feeling good knowing he did accomplish something outside of sports
5. The University can sleep well knowing that the athlete left with more than he came with.
6. The academic student will know that his academic sweat was on a different plane than the athlete who came only to play sports and skate through school.
7. The NCAA can be assured that there is some sort of academic proficiency with every 4 yr student/athlete
The key is accountability that the athlete has fulfilled his academic obligation and strict suspension penalties for those who do not abide
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
I have no idea how it is now because I am not there. But my experience is very similar to Coach Scotty's. At least half the guys were in college to play football. Getting a degree was something they would get if they were lucky. It was not a concern for many. It was simply an opportunity to continue to play the game they loved to play. They went to class , did enough work , just to stay elgible so they could play.
It may be much different now I have no idea I am not there. But when I was in college playing football this is exactly what I experienced. If it were not for football many would have not been in college.
I agree many go on to play sports in college to keep the game going.
However, football scholarships are free education, for many, getting a full scholarship is most likely the only way they could have college paid for. I do think that many do take advantage of that opportunity, they know they won't go pro afterwards, and do care about the degree, it means a better life.
I think we need to give our young players more credit than we do give them sometimes.
It's up to the school and coaches to change things, ex., what they did at UM. They might not be the UM of yesterday, but if you miss class or fall behind, Randy Shannon is on your case. I hear he tells parents that their players "will get more out of going to UM than football".
I use myself as an example when I talk to my players all the time. I did not see the value of a good education while I was a young man. I sat in class and day dreamed about playing ball , hunting , fishing , girls , etc etc. I did just enough to stay elgible to play sports. If not for sports I would have never graduated from hs muchless went to college. My parents stressed how important academics were all the time. They preached it 24/7. The fact is I was not hearing it.
I went to college for one reason. I wanted to continue to play sports. I did just enough in the classroom in order to do just that. I did just enough in the classroom to stay elgible in college. I did just enough in college to get my degree. I was in my mid 20's before I finally wised up and saw the light. And because I didnt listen I had to work full time , a part time job and go back to school to actually learn something I could use to earn a living and support a family.
Many of the guys I played football in college with were the same way. Not all of them. But many of them. If you think for one minute that all the guys your watching right now in the NC game woud be there if there was no college football your kidding yourself. Thats just the reality of it.
I preach to my players the same thing my parents preached to me. I hope they listen better than I did. But if sports can be the driving force that at least keeps a kid in school and at least gets him in college I am all for it. Many of the players playing major college football today are in college because they play football not because they dreamed of a college degree and football is something they do. I stand by that statement. I dont think I am wrong. And I am not saying all or the majority of them. I have no idea what the percentage is. But believe me there are many.
I went to college for one reason. I wanted to continue to play sports. I did just enough in the classroom in order to do just that. I did just enough in the classroom to stay elgible in college. I did just enough in college to get my degree. I was in my mid 20's before I finally wised up and saw the light. And because I didnt listen I had to work full time , a part time job and go back to school to actually learn something I could use to earn a living and support a family.
Many of the guys I played football in college with were the same way. Not all of them. But many of them. If you think for one minute that all the guys your watching right now in the NC game woud be there if there was no college football your kidding yourself. Thats just the reality of it.
I preach to my players the same thing my parents preached to me. I hope they listen better than I did. But if sports can be the driving force that at least keeps a kid in school and at least gets him in college I am all for it. Many of the players playing major college football today are in college because they play football not because they dreamed of a college degree and football is something they do. I stand by that statement. I dont think I am wrong. And I am not saying all or the majority of them. I have no idea what the percentage is. But believe me there are many.
RZ no offense at all. I understand what you are saying completely.
If there was no pro ball do you think there would be less participation in college sports? I do. Much less.
If there was no pro ball do you think there would be less participation in college sports? I do. Much less.
RZ no offense taken here either. I was just offering up my experience as to how it went with me. Honestly my story is very similar to Coach May - I barely graduated high school and did just enough to graduate college even after I realized I wanted to go into teaching.
The school I went to didn't have football but we did have basketball and baseball and most of the people who went through in my 4 years in both sports did it just for the sport. This was NAIA ball so the chances of going pro were beyond zero honestly. These were fairly somewhat local kids who just wanted to keep playing basketball or baseball. Some graduated and some didn't. In fact most that did graduate don't even use their degree.
I would say that's another huge issue at all levels of college are the ones who do happen to graduate that still don't use their degree - honestly that's probably a bigger waste of time, effort and money.
As long as their is big money to be made at the pro level - NBA, MLB, NFL, MLS, NHL, Europe - you are going to find a group of people who are going to abuse the system and use a scholarship to chase that dream. It's really just like playing the lottery - hope for the dream to come true.
The school I went to didn't have football but we did have basketball and baseball and most of the people who went through in my 4 years in both sports did it just for the sport. This was NAIA ball so the chances of going pro were beyond zero honestly. These were fairly somewhat local kids who just wanted to keep playing basketball or baseball. Some graduated and some didn't. In fact most that did graduate don't even use their degree.
I would say that's another huge issue at all levels of college are the ones who do happen to graduate that still don't use their degree - honestly that's probably a bigger waste of time, effort and money.
As long as their is big money to be made at the pro level - NBA, MLB, NFL, MLS, NHL, Europe - you are going to find a group of people who are going to abuse the system and use a scholarship to chase that dream. It's really just like playing the lottery - hope for the dream to come true.
quote:Coach2709 quote:
As long as their is big money to be made at the pro level - NBA, MLB, NFL, MLS, NHL, Europe - you are going to find a group of people who are going to abuse the system and use a scholarship to chase that dream
That could be the key to this whole situation. Kids are built up so high on the pro dream and when they set foot on campus and find out they're just another player in the system, big bummer. The knee jerk reaction for a kid is to change his tune and say "I'm just going to have fun, compete, and play out my career". Little do they know the "big gift" called education is right in front of their nose.
Where does some of the blame for this misconception lie?
Helicopter Mom/Dad?
ESPN?
Testosterone overload?
The demise of "reality checks"?
Like coach says the pro dream is like playing the lottery. What I find is hilarious, yet embarrassing to my gender, is that female athletes have a whole different perspective, ultimate goals, and higher graduation rates. I guess you don't always have to play tough, but rather play smart.
IMHO, The first thing a college coach who has an athletes academic interests in mind should show his incoming Freshman class is a chart of college athletes who actually cash a pro check.