NCAA challenged on JUCO rules

Great, so now college sports will have players that have been in college for 6 years.  This nonsense has to stop.  The object of college is to get a degree, not play sports for 6+ years.

I understand there are always exceptions, but I sure hope this fails.

if this goes through, then let’s implement some changes to hs.  Kids can stay for an additional 2 years so that they can compete better with kids in college.  See how ridiculous this sounds….

In fact, why have years of eligibility at all? People should be able to play "college" sports for as many years as they are students. If it takes you 10 years to earn a degree (or several degrees), why not?  Especially since now it can pay quite well. That's the logical conclusion to this.

Well said

One of the things I find frustrating is that as a juco player you have to strategically take courses that will transfer in order to be eligible. There are some really great, skilled associates degrees out there, but if you choose to pursue one of those skilled degree programs while at a juco, more often than not those courses won't transfer. If a kid decides to quit college after 2 years, I would think it would have been better to come away with a specialized "job ready" associates degree as compared to a transfer program associates degree that's just a bunch of gen eds. We already know the investment in a college education is turning out to not be worth the expense for those that attend certain schools or for those who obtained degrees that aren't pertinent to the job market. I personally think it's ridiculous that 4-year degree programs have so much general education requirements. Some of the courses they require are at the same level of what we require HS students to complete. That's why it's now more common to see duel-enrollment options available at high schools. It's also frustrating that a HS won't give HS credit for a non-duel enrollment course taken at a college. There are numerous colleges out there now that let HS students enroll and take classes for college credit, yet the high schools won't even count it as a HS elective credit.

The original intent of college was mostly to come out a well rounded man. It’s why there were so many courses across the board that didn’t apply to obtaining a job. A well rounded college education was a liberal arts degree with study in the humanities, social sciences, natural sciences and the arts.

A student essentially came out of college more mature than an eighteen year old with reasoning and critical thinking skills. Companies looked for intelligent, educated graduates and trained them. My father graduated from college in 1950 because he graduated from high school at the start of WWII. He used his degree in English Literature to get a job selling for a major oil company. Despite being twenty-six at graduation my father was an arrested adolescent frat boy. I know this because he still was one as a grown adult.

When I graduated in the Seventies the computer industry was burgeoning. I was asked two “make the cut” questions. “Is your degree math related?” and “Is your GPA at least 3.2?” I had a degree in Economics with a concentration in Quantitative Analysis. I was hired by Big Blue to sell computer systems. The first six months was almost all training.

Now a lot less corporations are doing extensive training. They want people producing immediately. If a job requires extensive skills chances are the person has to acquire them in their first job.

Internships during college is one way to gain experience before graduation. Some coaches don’t like their players passing on summer ball. My son’s coach wasn’t pleased he asked to be hooked up with a northern New Jersey team in the Atlantic Collegiate Baseball League so he could do a NYC internship. The coach told him the ACBL was beneath him. Post season surgery ended the debate. My son was hired by the corporation providing the internship after graduation.

@anotherparent posted:

In fact, why have years of eligibility at all? People should be able to play "college" sports for as many years as they are students. If it takes you 10 years to earn a degree (or several degrees), why not?  Especially since now it can pay quite well. That's the logical conclusion to this.

I am no fan of what is evolving at the D1 level especially in the Power 4. Unfortunately, I thin Coach Bennett was and will be prophetic when he stated in his recent resignation, D1 college sports are changing. They are becoming professionals. One noticeable aspect to me is no college President is outwardly resisting or even questioning the money grab. In fact, most seem supportive and are chasing more. When did we last see matriculation information posted and emphasized? Attendance numbers in the SEC and Big10 are much more prominent than grades and matriculation with, perhaps, the isolated exception of the Campbell award for the best scholar athlete. Even that gets little to no recognition by Universities and their Presidents.

I know it will never happen but in theory - couldn't they just no longer accept transfer credits at that point?

@RJM posted:

Now a lot less corporations are doing extensive training. They want people producing immediately. If a job requires extensive skills chances are the person has to acquire them in their first job.

Are you talking about jobs, or baseball recruiting and the transfer portal?

@PABaseball posted:

I know it will never happen but in theory - couldn't they just no longer accept transfer credits at that point?

Would be interesting to see how many kids are graduating in 4 years since the start of the pandemic. Very anecdotal but it seems that most of the kids my son played with that were part of the 2020 class are still in school of they went D1, and the ones that went D3 finished their 4 year. Of the handful of kids that went JUCO that I know, they haven't, and about half are just no longer in college.

Infielddad

now watching Ken Burns 3 nd inning. The answers are revealed.

thank you for the legal imput your comments are valuable.

” history repeats itself “

” great opportunities “ for creativity

Bob

Area Code Games and Goodwill Series

@Dadof3 posted:

if this goes through, then let’s implement some changes to hs.  Kids can stay for an additional 2 years so that they can compete better with kids in college.  See how ridiculous this sounds….

This is already happening. Reclassifying + post-grad means there are 20-year-olds just starting college.

I work in higher ed in the two-year sector and would like to address what @Momball11 posted. Schools have extensive General Education requirements for at least three reasons.

First, most higher education accreditors require a General Education program, and you can't award federal financial aid without some type of accreditation.  These rules may change in the future, but this is the way the system works now.  In the mid-Atlantic region, one of the rules for being accredited at any 4-year or 2-year college reads: "at institutions that offer undergraduate education, a general education program. . . offers a curriculum designed so that students acquire and demonstrate essential skills including at least oral and written communication, scientific and quantitative reasoning, critical analysis and reasoning, technological competency, and information literacy."  There are other rules, but this rule is the big one.  So. . . it is not as if colleges can do away with Gen Ed; if they do that, they can't offer financial aid.  In the UK, for example, there are no Gen Ed requirements, and a UK degree only takes three years to attain.  That's why transferring from a college abroad to an American college can be challenging, as the degrees are not equivalent.  Specific states also have specific degree requirements independent of accreditation; the State of Virginia famously has rigorous Gen Ed requirements for all its institutions.

Second, General Education can offer some protections for students. At open colleges, which, like most two-year public colleges, enroll anyone who signs up, General Education ensures that all students meet certain outcomes before starting their majors. Remember, entering two-year college students may have graduated high school years ago, may need multiple mental or physical accommodations to succeed, may need to work 40+ hours per week and be close to home to support family members, or may not be confident in their English fluency.  Everyone is welcome to enroll at their local two-year public school, but not everyone is prepared to succeed.  Gen Ed also helps students switch majors; imagine if any time they switch majors (the average number of switches is 3), they lose ALL progress toward any degree and must start all over.  Remember, the primary mission of a public two-year college is ACCESS and workforce development, regardless of level of high school preparation,  SAT scores, age, prior experience, etc.  Most two-year colleges have a mission that focuses on access and economic development for the local area, not just academic excellence, although many can and do accomplish both.

Third, and to the point of why partner four-year schools won't take certain credits:  education is a business. The four-year partner schools want to sell those credits to your student.  If the student can take all of their major requirements at the two-year college,  then the four-year college has nothing to offer.  Four-year colleges that are not part of a state system often refuse to transfer in student credits simply in order to make money. Even an extra semester of non-transferrable credit helps them meet their credit sales goal for the year. I think this approach is unethical, but I work at a public college.  Public colleges are often required to articulate credits from other in-state public colleges; private colleges have no such requirements.

As for dual-enrollment issues, those often vary by state; however, no institution that awards a degree or diploma likes double-counting. Generally, the rule is this: you can apply something like Calc I to meet ONE requirement, either the high school math requirement or the college Gen Ed requirement, but you can't use it for both.  Dual enrollment helps students who have already met all their high school requirements to advance through about one semester of college, but it doesn't replace a high school diploma requirement.  Four-year schools that sell 4+1 degrees (in education or engineering, for example) often double count, but that double-counting is in the service of selling an extra year for credits for the MA or MS.

While all of this explanation has nothing directly to do with baseball, it has a lot to do with the point of enrolling at a particular place as an athlete  -- education, education, education.  There are many different types, and it helps to know why each institution approaches its community differently.

@infielddad posted:

I am no fan of what is evolving at the D1 level especially in the Power 4. Unfortunately, I thin Coach Bennett was and will be prophetic when he stated in his recent resignation, D1 college sports are changing. They are becoming professionals. One noticeable aspect to me is no college President is outwardly resisting or even questioning the money grab. In fact, most seem supportive and are chasing more. When did we last see matriculation information posted and emphasized? Attendance numbers in the SEC and Big10 are much more prominent than grades and matriculation with, perhaps, the isolated exception of the Campbell award for the best scholar athlete. Even that gets little to no recognition by Universities and their Presidents.

I think the main reason the Presidents have jumped on board is because the NCAA loses almost every lawsuit.  I heard last year that eligibility would be the next thing questioned. Players would request eligibility as long as they were in school.

@RHP_Parent posted:

I work in higher ed in the two-year sector and would like to address what @Momball11 posted. Schools have extensive General Education requirements for at least three reasons.

First, most higher education accreditors require a General Education program, and you can't award federal financial aid without some type of accreditation.  These rules may change in the future, but this is the way the system works now.  In the mid-Atlantic region, one of the rules for being accredited at any 4-year or 2-year college reads: "at institutions that offer undergraduate education, a general education program. . . offers a curriculum designed so that students acquire and demonstrate essential skills including at least oral and written communication, scientific and quantitative reasoning, critical analysis and reasoning, technological competency, and information literacy."  There are other rules, but this rule is the big one.  So. . . it is not as if colleges can do away with Gen Ed; if they do that, they can't offer financial aid.  In the UK, for example, there are no Gen Ed requirements, and a UK degree only takes three years to attain.  That's why transferring from a college abroad to an American college can be challenging, as the degrees are not equivalent.  Specific states also have specific degree requirements independent of accreditation; the State of Virginia famously has rigorous Gen Ed requirements for all its institutions.

Second, General Education can offer some protections for students. At open colleges, which, like most two-year public colleges, enroll anyone who signs up, General Education ensures that all students meet certain outcomes before starting their majors. Remember, entering two-year college students may have graduated high school years ago, may need multiple mental or physical accommodations to succeed, may need to work 40+ hours per week and be close to home to support family members, or may not be confident in their English fluency.  Everyone is welcome to enroll at their local two-year public school, but not everyone is prepared to succeed.  Gen Ed also helps students switch majors; imagine if any time they switch majors (the average number of switches is 3), they lose ALL progress toward any degree and must start all over.  Remember, the primary mission of a public two-year college is ACCESS and workforce development, regardless of level of high school preparation,  SAT scores, age, prior experience, etc.  Most two-year colleges have a mission that focuses on access and economic development for the local area, not just academic excellence, although many can and do accomplish both.

Third, and to the point of why partner four-year schools won't take certain credits:  education is a business. The four-year partner schools want to sell those credits to your student.  If the student can take all of their major requirements at the two-year college,  then the four-year college has nothing to offer.  Four-year colleges that are not part of a state system often refuse to transfer in student credits simply in order to make money. Even an extra semester of non-transferrable credit helps them meet their credit sales goal for the year. I think this approach is unethical, but I work at a public college.  Public colleges are often required to articulate credits from other in-state public colleges; private colleges have no such requirements.

As for dual-enrollment issues, those often vary by state; however, no institution that awards a degree or diploma likes double-counting. Generally, the rule is this: you can apply something like Calc I to meet ONE requirement, either the high school math requirement or the college Gen Ed requirement, but you can't use it for both.  Dual enrollment helps students who have already met all their high school requirements to advance through about one semester of college, but it doesn't replace a high school diploma requirement.  Four-year schools that sell 4+1 degrees (in education or engineering, for example) often double count, but that double-counting is in the service of selling an extra year for credits for the MA or MS.

While all of this explanation has nothing directly to do with baseball, it has a lot to do with the point of enrolling at a particular place as an athlete  -- education, education, education.  There are many different types, and it helps to know why each institution approaches its community differently.

Appreciate the insight...all good points. I definitely know about the $/business aspect as I've been working higher ed for the past 5 years. Lots of budget cuts lately because fewer students are enrolling, which means less revenue to work with.