NCAA study: Blacks shifting away from college baseball
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/baseball/2005-06-24-minorities_x.htm
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Many times players that are from backgrounds that are limited financially look at baseball with limited scholarships and opt for sports that will pay for full rides. I can't believe the NCAA hasn't received more grief on this issue. It is a shame that that kids from backgrounds who are not well off can't play baseball in college. Regardless of color, it is a shame.
You must excuse the NCAA as they have more pressing issues to tackle such as school nicknames/logo's/mascots etc..
Could this be nothing more than yellow journalism attempting to polarize and stir emotions in their readers? What is the problem if athletes of a particular ethnic background chooses (or doesn't choose) a sport based on his or her personal preference?
It is a legit issue, but so are all the other side issues that go with it.
If I'm the parent of a young athletic black male, and I believe I can push my child toward ONLY ONE sport to try to get him into college, which will it be?
Unless and until we as a baseball community do a better job of bringing black parents and players into the game at the grass-roots level, the answer won't be baseball.
It used to be said that boxing was the so-called immigrant sport. At first, most champions were of European heritage. Then came the black champions. Now, if you subscribe to this, latinos are taking their turn.
Isn't baseball the same way?
Fungo, you are correct: It is in part a question of preference. But, from the perspective of the parent of a white player at historically black school, I do think it's fair to say there is a lot more to it than that.
If I'm the parent of a young athletic black male, and I believe I can push my child toward ONLY ONE sport to try to get him into college, which will it be?
Unless and until we as a baseball community do a better job of bringing black parents and players into the game at the grass-roots level, the answer won't be baseball.
It used to be said that boxing was the so-called immigrant sport. At first, most champions were of European heritage. Then came the black champions. Now, if you subscribe to this, latinos are taking their turn.
Isn't baseball the same way?
Fungo, you are correct: It is in part a question of preference. But, from the perspective of the parent of a white player at historically black school, I do think it's fair to say there is a lot more to it than that.
quote:What is the problem if athletes of a particular ethnic background chooses (or doesn't choose) a sport based on his or her personal preference?
Fungo... I agree 100%. Why is this seen as a "problem" that must be fixed somehow?
Harold Reynolds is quoted in that article complaining about how HS coaches make kids play basketball in the summer and that is cutting out their chance to play baseball.
Well -- the same thing happened to my son who is white. In addition to being a talented HS baseball player he is an excellent basketball player. But because the HS coaches insist on kids playing basketball virtually year round to have any hope of playing for their varsity teams, he opted to give up basketball. In other words he CHOSE baseball over basketball. Others may choose to play basketball instead...
...so why does that create a national crisis and my son choosing baseball does not?
Instead of wringing their hands and trying to dream up special programs to attract black athletes to baseball, the NCAA needs to reign in out-of-control HS football and basketball coaches who don't want their players playing baseball so they run them out of the sport by creating a year-round regimen they have to follow.
White or black it is wrong what these coaches are doing now adays to high school athletes and it is a big reason so many kids end up without a college education because they grow up being fed a line of bull about going to the NBA and they never take their education seriously.
I agree with all of the above posts. There are efforts being made in the inner cities to encourage baseball participation by minorities. And it is a problem when a coach from another sport demands nearly all of an athlete's time to be spent on his sport. Baseball is not alone with the burgeoning growth of travel programs, which we all know are not inexpensive. There certainly is not alot of scholarship money available out there for baseball and athletes must take this into account when choosing a sport to participate in while furthering their education. The NCAA report mentions Oregon State as one school that participated in the CWS in Omaha this year while having not one black player on their roster. Oregon State recruits primarily within state and when it comes to black athletes there simply are not many to choose from since not many blacks reside in Oregon. I think small recruiting budgets and not policies are responsible for the make up of their roster.As with all sports if you are good and can produce then you will be considered. Good ball players evolve from good programs run and coached by good people. It really is as simple as that. Put that into place in any community and you will turn out good players. If the media wants to create yet another crisis where one does not exist then more power to them. Their credibility and worth will continue to slide south. Its actually a pleasant sight!
Is it the goal of the NCAA to lure black athletes away from basketball to play baseball? If so here’s an idea. Do away with the Major League RBI program (Reviving Baseball to the Inner-city); and have the NBA start a SWAP program (Search for White Athletic Players). This would lure the white players from the baseball fields back to the basketball courts and would create baseball openings for those black basketball players displaced by the new found white basketball players .... presto ... “Instant equality”!
Wouldn't it be nice if parents sent their kids to summer educational programs and felt the expense and time were worth the money spent.
Wouldn't it be nice if spent half as much time reading literature with their kids, or doing science experiments as the spend at the ballpark.
Then perhaps they could effectively compete for an academic scholarship.
What it boils down to is not baseball vs. other sports. What it boils down to is playing sports for the sole purpose of earning a scholarship.
The problem is not baseball - the problem is affordable education.
Wouldn't it be nice if spent half as much time reading literature with their kids, or doing science experiments as the spend at the ballpark.
Then perhaps they could effectively compete for an academic scholarship.
What it boils down to is not baseball vs. other sports. What it boils down to is playing sports for the sole purpose of earning a scholarship.
The problem is not baseball - the problem is affordable education.
This is a controversial topic so everything I am about to say is based on anecdotal observations and could be way off base.
From my perspective the problem has nothing to do with the colleges or scholarships. In general, baseball probably requires more training than any other sport. If as a youth, a youngster is not exposed to proper coaching and extensive competition they will fall by the wayside in a hurry.
I will guess that 99% of the members on the hsbbweb have son's who play on some type of traveling or select summer baseball team. Exactly how many minority players do you people come across in your travels? My son has played all over the state of Ohio, PA, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, etc. Sure there are some minority players but not many imho. Most teams look like they are recruited from the state of Oregon.
In the Cleveland area, and at the high school levels, if you are talking football or basketball, we see many dominating teams from the so-called inner city schools. When those same schools attempt to compete in baseball, it is almost like the teams that are fielded are playing ball for the first time. We played several big inner-city schools this year with actual scores of 32-1, 24-0, 27-2, and 25-3 in our favor. Our starters were removed after the first inning in each contest. I was fairly confident our freshman teams could have beaten each one of these varsity programs.
What's my point? Without a viable youth league experience, baseball will almost never be an option for a youngster at the collegiate level.
From my perspective the problem has nothing to do with the colleges or scholarships. In general, baseball probably requires more training than any other sport. If as a youth, a youngster is not exposed to proper coaching and extensive competition they will fall by the wayside in a hurry.
I will guess that 99% of the members on the hsbbweb have son's who play on some type of traveling or select summer baseball team. Exactly how many minority players do you people come across in your travels? My son has played all over the state of Ohio, PA, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, etc. Sure there are some minority players but not many imho. Most teams look like they are recruited from the state of Oregon.
In the Cleveland area, and at the high school levels, if you are talking football or basketball, we see many dominating teams from the so-called inner city schools. When those same schools attempt to compete in baseball, it is almost like the teams that are fielded are playing ball for the first time. We played several big inner-city schools this year with actual scores of 32-1, 24-0, 27-2, and 25-3 in our favor. Our starters were removed after the first inning in each contest. I was fairly confident our freshman teams could have beaten each one of these varsity programs.
What's my point? Without a viable youth league experience, baseball will almost never be an option for a youngster at the collegiate level.
Cleveland Dad is right, as are others. How many college players jump directly to the big leagues? When they do it is big news. I remember a black little league teammate of my son who started the game at around ten years of age. He was very athletic and fun to watch on the bases and in the field but not an outstanding hitter. He was a bit behind the others at the plate. I talked with his dad a good bit, who played college basketball. He reached age 12 and joined a travel hoop team and he was gone. His choice, no one elses.
I have seen similar results.
quote:We played several big inner-city schools this year with actual scores of 32-1, 24-0, 27-2, and 25-3 in our favor. Our starters were removed after the first inning in each contest. I was fairly confident our freshman teams could have beaten each one of these varsity programs.
I have seen similar results.
Lack of baseball facilities within inner cities has also not helped the issue.
Players that live within inner cities and struggling and want to go to college will definetly go for the sport that gives out the most scholarship dollars, black, white.
Hispanic culture (in their country)revolves around baseball, even more so than in our country.
I think it is more of an economic cultural issue rather than racial.
Players that live within inner cities and struggling and want to go to college will definetly go for the sport that gives out the most scholarship dollars, black, white.
Hispanic culture (in their country)revolves around baseball, even more so than in our country.
I think it is more of an economic cultural issue rather than racial.
OldVaman posts:
"Unless and until we as a baseball community do a better job of bringing black parents and players into our game at the grass-roots level, the answer won't be baseball."
Respectfully, I don't view baseball as "our game". Not to put words into your post but do you
mean a game played mostly by whites? I view baseball and all sports as belonging to anyone who
has the desire, ability and yes, economic resources to participate.
Maybe I'm misguided, or selfish or whatever, but I've never felt the need to try to get a certain group or race of people interested in any sport or recreation. By your reasoning then
should we not also work on getting more Middle Eastern youth involved in ALL the sports? They are certainly becoming a large part of our population? What about the Vietnamese-they are not
very well represented but have also become a large part of our communities. Here in Orlando we
have a large community of Portuguese/Brazillian families that love to play S****R and have basically taken over our high school team-absolutely no complaints from the locals that I know
of.
I think we tend to stick our noses into places where they don't belong and try to stir up problems where they do not exist. Artificially trying to instill a desire to play a sport IMO
is not the answer. YES, we should have open arms to all races and should do our best to make
them welcome and vice versa, but trying to pro-actively bring groups and races of people into
certain sports just to be politically correct is again IMO counter-productive.
"Unless and until we as a baseball community do a better job of bringing black parents and players into our game at the grass-roots level, the answer won't be baseball."
Respectfully, I don't view baseball as "our game". Not to put words into your post but do you
mean a game played mostly by whites? I view baseball and all sports as belonging to anyone who
has the desire, ability and yes, economic resources to participate.
Maybe I'm misguided, or selfish or whatever, but I've never felt the need to try to get a certain group or race of people interested in any sport or recreation. By your reasoning then
should we not also work on getting more Middle Eastern youth involved in ALL the sports? They are certainly becoming a large part of our population? What about the Vietnamese-they are not
very well represented but have also become a large part of our communities. Here in Orlando we
have a large community of Portuguese/Brazillian families that love to play S****R and have basically taken over our high school team-absolutely no complaints from the locals that I know
of.
I think we tend to stick our noses into places where they don't belong and try to stir up problems where they do not exist. Artificially trying to instill a desire to play a sport IMO
is not the answer. YES, we should have open arms to all races and should do our best to make
them welcome and vice versa, but trying to pro-actively bring groups and races of people into
certain sports just to be politically correct is again IMO counter-productive.
I am with MOC
The PC BS has gone too far--if a kid has the desire to play a certain sport or a certain musical instrument etc he can find away if he wants to--- and dont tell me lack of funds deters him-- there are ways and means, trust me, if you want it bad enough--I have run enough programs, public and private,to know the story
It really gets tiring--instead of putting things on a silver platter for them why not work for and earn what you want---
The PC BS has gone too far--if a kid has the desire to play a certain sport or a certain musical instrument etc he can find away if he wants to--- and dont tell me lack of funds deters him-- there are ways and means, trust me, if you want it bad enough--I have run enough programs, public and private,to know the story
It really gets tiring--instead of putting things on a silver platter for them why not work for and earn what you want---
It is strictly a preference issue: Look at this post from a forum on al.com
http://www.al.com/forums/hsbasketball
topic number 17422.1.3.1 by the way the poster is a black man who graduated from J.O. Johnson High School in 1978
WOW you bring up BASEBALL... JOJ is a predominately Black school... we dont care about baseball or s****r, you can have that at Grissom. Worry about getting cheating Stapler back so you your basketball team can win more than 3 games next year. Stapler was smart, he realized that to be competitive these days in the city you have to have Blacks on your team... soon as he left the Blacks left and Grissom has been the laugh of the city every since then.
I guess I should give you some background. J.O. Johnson is a school of 837 96% black in Huntsville, AL. Grissom is a school of 1928 98% White and Asian Americans.
http://www.al.com/forums/hsbasketball
topic number 17422.1.3.1 by the way the poster is a black man who graduated from J.O. Johnson High School in 1978
WOW you bring up BASEBALL... JOJ is a predominately Black school... we dont care about baseball or s****r, you can have that at Grissom. Worry about getting cheating Stapler back so you your basketball team can win more than 3 games next year. Stapler was smart, he realized that to be competitive these days in the city you have to have Blacks on your team... soon as he left the Blacks left and Grissom has been the laugh of the city every since then.
I guess I should give you some background. J.O. Johnson is a school of 837 96% black in Huntsville, AL. Grissom is a school of 1928 98% White and Asian Americans.
We need to develop the inner cities baseball programs so that all people living there will be introduced to the game. Regardless of race. some people make it a black issue because so many blacks live in the inner city. It is not a black issue. It is a preference issue and an availability issue. jmo
Moc1 said:
IMHO, the economics are the issue. I was hesitant to say it this boldly. We could build parks and fund teams in all the disadvantaged locations in the nation and that still probably would not be enough to develop the requisite skills to compete at the collegiate level in most cases IMO. Baseball has become a very expensive sport to acquire the necessary skills in which to compete. I am sure most parents on this site can tally thousands and thousands of dollars in costs for participation, equipment, instruction, travel, etc. It is not impossible without these resources, but much more difficult IMO.
Moc1, nice avatar and huge congrats. I see my son's team will get a crack at Tennesee in Myrtle Beach and it would be my pleasure to meet you.
quote:I view baseball and all sports as belonging to anyone who has the desire, ability and yes, economic resources to participate.
IMHO, the economics are the issue. I was hesitant to say it this boldly. We could build parks and fund teams in all the disadvantaged locations in the nation and that still probably would not be enough to develop the requisite skills to compete at the collegiate level in most cases IMO. Baseball has become a very expensive sport to acquire the necessary skills in which to compete. I am sure most parents on this site can tally thousands and thousands of dollars in costs for participation, equipment, instruction, travel, etc. It is not impossible without these resources, but much more difficult IMO.
Moc1, nice avatar and huge congrats. I see my son's team will get a crack at Tennesee in Myrtle Beach and it would be my pleasure to meet you.
I happen to have a position in youth baseball where I try to develop the programs in the city of Huntsville, AL. There are 4 fields (2 60 x90, 2 LL) good fields with recent improvements that are not used in what you would call the "inner city". I have tried over and over to recruit volunteers and players to use the fields. All I can say is "If you build it they will not come".
Let me add one other thing. Let's say you get out and recruit in the black community real hard and blacks decided to play. Where would the HBCUs get their players? Almost all have a team and have trouble fielding a team. There was a post on this message board a year or so ago from a coach looking for players. I went to his school web page and it was an HBCU. If they can't field a team now what would they do if their players went some where else. By the way if you are white with a C average you will be welcomed at almost all HBCU schools with a scholarship or some type of grant.
We may as well forget about this non-issue.
We may as well forget about this non-issue.
I know of two white players, brothers, on a team at a local historicaly black university. About half the team is white.
Couple of things:
Moc: I guess I should have been more clear. "Our" game means your game, my game and the baseball community at large. "Our" game shouldn't have a qualifier. But perhaps it's getting one anyway. I went back and edited the post.
While this doesn't pertain to anybody specific, every time time we talk about reaching out, we inevitably talk about inner cities. Why? It would seem we ought to begin where the game did so many years ago, out in the countryside.
dad4boys: There is some truth to what you say. But, at least in the MEAC, the overall quality of the league is slowly starting to get better. Schools are starting recruit a higher quality of student, folks who have a better chance of graduating. Once the schools can field teams of juniors and seniors instead of freshmen and sophomores every year, they will be more competitive in their non-league schedules.
Moc: I guess I should have been more clear. "Our" game means your game, my game and the baseball community at large. "Our" game shouldn't have a qualifier. But perhaps it's getting one anyway. I went back and edited the post.
While this doesn't pertain to anybody specific, every time time we talk about reaching out, we inevitably talk about inner cities. Why? It would seem we ought to begin where the game did so many years ago, out in the countryside.
dad4boys: There is some truth to what you say. But, at least in the MEAC, the overall quality of the league is slowly starting to get better. Schools are starting recruit a higher quality of student, folks who have a better chance of graduating. Once the schools can field teams of juniors and seniors instead of freshmen and sophomores every year, they will be more competitive in their non-league schedules.
Bottom Line---it is what it is and it aint gonna change--
I've read all the post with interest. The reasons for African-Americans not playing baseball in the representative numbers based upon their attendance in our schools, has more to do with cultural differences than anything else.
Back in the early days of baseball and taking in to account the historical consequences of Landis Kennesaw's impact on baseball there was a system of separation that developed in this country between Caucasians and African Americans players. That decision by Kennesaw brought to baseball a way of thinking that to this day still permeates many of the areas of our country. Though we have made great strides toward inclusiveness, the truth is that the seeds that were planted so many years ago still produce weeds that are hard to irradicate.
In our area, one of the wealthiest in the country there is no outreach whatsoever to the Africa-American community, nor the Hispanic or the Oriental for that matter to try to recruit young baseball players. But it is the wealthy community that control all of the licenses and franchises for the entry level activities of youth sports. I'm sure that if the truth be known that this pretty much parallels most communiteis in our country.
As a result of this the African-American communities have initiated there own programs and those are centered around basketball because it can be played all year long, indorrs and is very economical to run. The Hispanic communities support there own programs centered around soc*cer. and the Asian communities involve their children in running their private small businesses and studying to make it into UC Berkeley. That's just the way it is. It is what it is.
Since our family is third generation and I was the first one in our family to find baseball as a sport that I loved I had no compunction to promote the sport to my sons. My older one liked the game but played football. My younger son, loves the game, but it doesn't go unnoticed by us the lack of minority players in the venues and games that he has competed. I guess it would be important to us if we were militant about our Latin background, but we aren't. We are Americans, and we have no other loyalties. The fact that we are Latin by birth is by natural consequence, not by willful choice.
Actually we do understand the reasons for why the Causcasian baseball communities have been so reluctant to open themselves up to including players from other nationalities as a general effort... and I think it has to do with what they are used to, and what they feel comfortable with. Then there is also the consideration that there are only so many spots available on each team and they're afraid that they would be giving up a spot that would ordinarily go to their own son.
I believe there are some individuals that have shown a real reluctance toward opening up the game and we have had those make some very unpleasant comments to us. But in general we have enjoyed our experience watching our son come up from LL. through his first days on the Big Diamond, and now in his college years. I wouldn't have changed a thing.
It is with much gratitude that I give credit to the folks at Babe Ruth for their willingness to include all children who want to play baseball.
Back in the early days of baseball and taking in to account the historical consequences of Landis Kennesaw's impact on baseball there was a system of separation that developed in this country between Caucasians and African Americans players. That decision by Kennesaw brought to baseball a way of thinking that to this day still permeates many of the areas of our country. Though we have made great strides toward inclusiveness, the truth is that the seeds that were planted so many years ago still produce weeds that are hard to irradicate.
In our area, one of the wealthiest in the country there is no outreach whatsoever to the Africa-American community, nor the Hispanic or the Oriental for that matter to try to recruit young baseball players. But it is the wealthy community that control all of the licenses and franchises for the entry level activities of youth sports. I'm sure that if the truth be known that this pretty much parallels most communiteis in our country.
As a result of this the African-American communities have initiated there own programs and those are centered around basketball because it can be played all year long, indorrs and is very economical to run. The Hispanic communities support there own programs centered around soc*cer. and the Asian communities involve their children in running their private small businesses and studying to make it into UC Berkeley. That's just the way it is. It is what it is.
Since our family is third generation and I was the first one in our family to find baseball as a sport that I loved I had no compunction to promote the sport to my sons. My older one liked the game but played football. My younger son, loves the game, but it doesn't go unnoticed by us the lack of minority players in the venues and games that he has competed. I guess it would be important to us if we were militant about our Latin background, but we aren't. We are Americans, and we have no other loyalties. The fact that we are Latin by birth is by natural consequence, not by willful choice.
Actually we do understand the reasons for why the Causcasian baseball communities have been so reluctant to open themselves up to including players from other nationalities as a general effort... and I think it has to do with what they are used to, and what they feel comfortable with. Then there is also the consideration that there are only so many spots available on each team and they're afraid that they would be giving up a spot that would ordinarily go to their own son.
I believe there are some individuals that have shown a real reluctance toward opening up the game and we have had those make some very unpleasant comments to us. But in general we have enjoyed our experience watching our son come up from LL. through his first days on the Big Diamond, and now in his college years. I wouldn't have changed a thing.
It is with much gratitude that I give credit to the folks at Babe Ruth for their willingness to include all children who want to play baseball.
Well all the soul searching aside. There is a finite number of athletes from the black community. Blacks make up 12% or less of the U.S. population. According to the article cited they make up 44% of the basketball and football teams and 6% of the baseball teams. Where are you going to get the players? Take the number of blacks playing basketball and football down? Then there will be an article about that. By my quick calculations 10% of the blacks playing D1 baseball play in my home state of Alabama for two schools. Alabama A&M (30)and Alabama State (32), they are members of the SWAC. Which a rough count of the rest of the SWAC schools would say makes up most of the 598 players. Maybe they really meant to say D1 non HBCU schools.
Dad4boys said
By my quick calculations 10% of the blacks playing D1 baseball play in my home state of Alabama for two schools. Alabama A&M and Alabama State, they are members of the SWAC which a rough count would say makes up most of the rest. Maybe they really meant to say D1 non HBCU schools.
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No I think they probably are correct. In a recent article about the CWS it was noted how few African-American players participated in the entire championship tournament. The truth is that African-American communities have read the writing on the wall and it is not by random circumstance that the NCAA has put baseball at the level it is with 11.7 scholarships. It serves to validate that the two programs that generate the largest revenues would reserve the most scholarships for the athletic activities that would attract and get the best athletes...football and basketball.
By my quick calculations 10% of the blacks playing D1 baseball play in my home state of Alabama for two schools. Alabama A&M and Alabama State, they are members of the SWAC which a rough count would say makes up most of the rest. Maybe they really meant to say D1 non HBCU schools.
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No I think they probably are correct. In a recent article about the CWS it was noted how few African-American players participated in the entire championship tournament. The truth is that African-American communities have read the writing on the wall and it is not by random circumstance that the NCAA has put baseball at the level it is with 11.7 scholarships. It serves to validate that the two programs that generate the largest revenues would reserve the most scholarships for the athletic activities that would attract and get the best athletes...football and basketball.
The more I think about it, this article in which this thread is based upon appears inflamatory to me and is internally inconsistent IMO. If the author of the piece finds no problem with blacks being over-represented in football and basketball, why is it necessarily then a problem (or even a matter for discussion) if they are under represented in baseball?
The even broader issue is that sports are an all-too-easy topic for the "liberal" establishment to take aim at. I wonder exactly what the minority representation for executive employment is at the USA Today newspaper? How many minority reporters do they even have on staff?
Lets look at the movie industry where many of these type thinkers operate. How many minority directors, producers, or actors are there. How many have ever won an Academy Award? Less than a handful that's how many.
Mascots, minority participation in sports....there are more pressing issues that need addressed in this society. We can't even agree that 80 year old grandmothers do not need to be equally searched in the same proprtion as middle eastern men at your favorite airport.
The even broader issue is that sports are an all-too-easy topic for the "liberal" establishment to take aim at. I wonder exactly what the minority representation for executive employment is at the USA Today newspaper? How many minority reporters do they even have on staff?
Lets look at the movie industry where many of these type thinkers operate. How many minority directors, producers, or actors are there. How many have ever won an Academy Award? Less than a handful that's how many.
Mascots, minority participation in sports....there are more pressing issues that need addressed in this society. We can't even agree that 80 year old grandmothers do not need to be equally searched in the same proprtion as middle eastern men at your favorite airport.
quote:The truth is that African-American communities have read the writing on the wall and it is not by random circumstance that the NCAA has put baseball at the level it is with 11.7 scholarships.
Ram
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I doubt the 10% reduction of baseball scholarships from 13.0 to 11.7 was for the exclusion of minorities. I don't recall the stated reason at the time but I don't recall institutionalized racism being it. I have a feeling if the revenue generated per baseball player approached that of football or basketball, then the scholarship limit would rise as well.
All that being said and again please I don't mean to infer your lack of right to an opinion, it is my experience that players and coaches respect other players not for their color or language. Successfull players and coaches respect other players for their ability to play the game, be good teammates and help the team win games.
If I am coaching a team I don't care where you are from or what you look like. I care if you can help the team.
first of all, the study has the tense wrong. This isn't shifting, it has shifted quite awhile ago and IMO there are many reasons whereby race is the indirect net result of what is often more to do about economics.
In no particular order:
Baseball equipment, field space etc. is expensive and often unavailable in economical deprvied areas. At least in Los Angeles, there are virtually no baseball fields to be found in the inner city areas. It's tough enough anywhere due to s****r.
In many instances baseball has become a sport of expensive lessons, travel ball, etc. So it becomes an economic, not a race issue. Does it ultimately manifest to race......
Similarly, the limit on scholarships is an economic issue that can translate to race and other issues. Also, a college baseball player can't be drafted till after his junior year. Not the same in football and basketball. again an economic issue that may well ultimately translate to race.
My son has played in RBI and other inner city programs. We've heard repeatedly in those programs that baseball is the "white boy" sport. Reverse disrimination
In no particular order:
Baseball equipment, field space etc. is expensive and often unavailable in economical deprvied areas. At least in Los Angeles, there are virtually no baseball fields to be found in the inner city areas. It's tough enough anywhere due to s****r.
In many instances baseball has become a sport of expensive lessons, travel ball, etc. So it becomes an economic, not a race issue. Does it ultimately manifest to race......
Similarly, the limit on scholarships is an economic issue that can translate to race and other issues. Also, a college baseball player can't be drafted till after his junior year. Not the same in football and basketball. again an economic issue that may well ultimately translate to race.
My son has played in RBI and other inner city programs. We've heard repeatedly in those programs that baseball is the "white boy" sport. Reverse disrimination
Dad04 said:
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You misunderstood my point...
What I was referring to was the choices that African-American families will make based upon their understanding of the difference between the number of baseball scholarships and the combined number of basketball and football scholarships. They can figure out that the best chance for their child to go to college on an athletic scholarship is where the scholarships are the most plentiful. Then they also have a historic record to look at with regard to how easy or difficult is it for their child to get to play a particular sport like baseball.
Based upon that paradigm then you have the NCAA reacting to the decision of African-American families, and so you have the NCAA deciding that because the African-American community has a great number of athletes that can actually make the D-1 football/basketball programs better, which means a lot more revenue for the schools, you can see how one over the other can influence the results.
It's a matter of logical outcomes based upon cultural paradigms that help to make things fit into the picture we see.
quote:You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I doubt the 10% reduction of baseball scholarships from 13.0 to 11.7 was for the exclusion of minorities
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You misunderstood my point...
What I was referring to was the choices that African-American families will make based upon their understanding of the difference between the number of baseball scholarships and the combined number of basketball and football scholarships. They can figure out that the best chance for their child to go to college on an athletic scholarship is where the scholarships are the most plentiful. Then they also have a historic record to look at with regard to how easy or difficult is it for their child to get to play a particular sport like baseball.
Based upon that paradigm then you have the NCAA reacting to the decision of African-American families, and so you have the NCAA deciding that because the African-American community has a great number of athletes that can actually make the D-1 football/basketball programs better, which means a lot more revenue for the schools, you can see how one over the other can influence the results.
It's a matter of logical outcomes based upon cultural paradigms that help to make things fit into the picture we see.
Just curious. How many black professional basketball and football players have ever admitted baseball was the game they preferred? I know there are many but can't think of them.
Michael Jordan?
Michael Jordan?
Ramrod, You may have a point about the African-American athletes gravitating towards football with 85 D1 scholarships, however, basketball has 13 scholarships for 13 players.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the scholarships are not divided up-they are
full scholarships. So basically this helps 13 athletes. Baseball has approximately 30 players on a team sharing those 11.7. If your theory is to hold any credence at all then
why haven't Afican American athletes taken over ice hockey with 18 scholarships available.
I'm kind of joking about it, I know the sport of hockey is not widely available in most
colleges but I honestly do not believe it has anything to do with Blacks going where the
scholarships are available. I think the real reason is that they actually enjoy playing
football and basketball over baseball. Simple as that. Please don't try to make this a
racist statement, it's not. Why can't we just admit that some people as a whole have developed a fondness for some things and some groups like other things? Why is that a bad
thing?
It has never stopped me from enjoying watching a great athlete compete against the best competition-no matter what color the skin.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the scholarships are not divided up-they are
full scholarships. So basically this helps 13 athletes. Baseball has approximately 30 players on a team sharing those 11.7. If your theory is to hold any credence at all then
why haven't Afican American athletes taken over ice hockey with 18 scholarships available.
I'm kind of joking about it, I know the sport of hockey is not widely available in mostcolleges but I honestly do not believe it has anything to do with Blacks going where the
scholarships are available. I think the real reason is that they actually enjoy playing
football and basketball over baseball. Simple as that. Please don't try to make this a
racist statement, it's not. Why can't we just admit that some people as a whole have developed a fondness for some things and some groups like other things? Why is that a bad
thing?
It has never stopped me from enjoying watching a great athlete compete against the best competition-no matter what color the skin.
MOC1
I don't think your point is wrong, but I believe logic would simply bear out the fact that African-American ahtletes will gravitate to the sportrs that they perceive that they can excel at with the least amount of aggrevation to get there. Why do I say that, because I have spent a lot of time with them, played ball with them in our high school colleges I attended and know that they would rather try out for the football team where their skills of reaction, speed, and strength are better applied.
Even as far back as when I played the African-American players would rather play football, basketball, then baseball because in our area the Catholic Schools as well as other private schools pretty much controlled the game. That means that to play at a top level school your parents had to afford the tuition to the private school. Being that is so the African-American athlete knows that to get the visibility he needs to get to the next level he must find a sport that will help him to utilize his best strengths.
But that means that they wouldn't have prefered in "all" circumstances to play football or basketball, but out of necessity and ease of access that is what they found was open to them if they had aspirations of using their athletic talents to further themselves at all.
The truth is baseball has never been an easier path for the African-American athlete.
It is axiomatic, water runs downhill.
I don't think your point is wrong, but I believe logic would simply bear out the fact that African-American ahtletes will gravitate to the sportrs that they perceive that they can excel at with the least amount of aggrevation to get there. Why do I say that, because I have spent a lot of time with them, played ball with them in our high school colleges I attended and know that they would rather try out for the football team where their skills of reaction, speed, and strength are better applied.
Even as far back as when I played the African-American players would rather play football, basketball, then baseball because in our area the Catholic Schools as well as other private schools pretty much controlled the game. That means that to play at a top level school your parents had to afford the tuition to the private school. Being that is so the African-American athlete knows that to get the visibility he needs to get to the next level he must find a sport that will help him to utilize his best strengths.
But that means that they wouldn't have prefered in "all" circumstances to play football or basketball, but out of necessity and ease of access that is what they found was open to them if they had aspirations of using their athletic talents to further themselves at all.
The truth is baseball has never been an easier path for the African-American athlete.
It is axiomatic, water runs downhill.
Ramrod
I realize I'm creating something of a circular argument, but would it not be true that any athlete of any race or *** would gravitate toward a sport in which they thought they would excel?
The truth is baseball has never been an easier path for any athlete. The belief among those who choose to play baseball is that it better fits their talents.
I completely agree with those folks who believe that preference is the biggest factor here. But I disagree with anyone who think it is the only factor.
I realize I'm creating something of a circular argument, but would it not be true that any athlete of any race or *** would gravitate toward a sport in which they thought they would excel?
The truth is baseball has never been an easier path for any athlete. The belief among those who choose to play baseball is that it better fits their talents.
I completely agree with those folks who believe that preference is the biggest factor here. But I disagree with anyone who think it is the only factor.
OldVaman
Won't disagree with you because your argument is logical in that it would include a section of the reasons why athletes participate in sports.
That probably can be said with most of the arguments posed here.
But my point was based more on cultural differences that have been many years in the making. You're not going to change that.
Won't disagree with you because your argument is logical in that it would include a section of the reasons why athletes participate in sports.
That probably can be said with most of the arguments posed here.
But my point was based more on cultural differences that have been many years in the making. You're not going to change that.
I love the guilt trip that is attempting to be laid out here. Kids play whatever they can play. Not to say have ability to play, but to have the interest and access to play.
As a little boy in the South Bronx, I could come home from playing during the summer and find a baseball game on TV to watch before dinner. On weekends, I could hang out with my Dad watching the Yankees. That was big time, hanging out with my Dad who worked all week. I learned about baseball from him. He never had time to come out to teach me, but he could explain the game while we watched. Seeing his reaction to home runs , great defensive plays and clutch hits, I was intent on being able to do those same things that brought joy to my Dad.
We had seven kids in my family so money was always tight. The kids I played with also lived in a similar condition at home. We would talk baseball during the summer, watch the Yankees in the World Series and talk about how we would be playing pro ball one day.
We discovered the pink ball, the Spaulding High Bounce. We were now ball players. To get one we would go door to door asking for soda bottles that we could bring back for the deposit until we had enough for a ball. When we had enough, we went to the bin and started squeezing the balls, one by one. The hardest balls were the best. They went further when you hit them. We would find a stick somewhere, sometimes at home. (Our Moms really didn't appreciate our inventiveness when it was out turn to 'find' the stick.) We could play street stickball if we had a bunch of kids. If fewer we could play pitching in box ball. But we could play and emulate the guys that brought so much joy to our fathers.
When the Mets started out they couldn't draw flies to games, they were awful. So they started with a program of putting coupons on milk containers. We would go to Met games with the school and scream "Let's Go Mets". It was great fun.
I fancied myself a resourceful kid so when I wanted to go to a Yankee game, I would get up early and start making the rounds for deposit bottles until I had enough to make $1.15. That would give me enough for the subway ride there and back and 75 cents for the bleachers. I'd sit in centerfield watching Mickey Mantle and wonder why people were so mad at Roger Maris. When my Dad had extra money and the time, he would bring my brother and I to a few games and we would sit in the field boxes. Life was beautiful and so was baseball.
Today, baseball is not suited to children. Most games during the week are at night when children have to go to bed before the game is over. Most games are on cable so children who come from large families who cannot have cable can't watch. The price of games have grown to excess. Even sitting in the bleachers is out of reach of children. The PC weirdos have empowered child molesters so it really isn't safe for children to travel alone.
Basketball and football weren't on TV much back then. Basketball is still on free TV in most cities. If someone had a real basketball back then we assumed they came from a well to do family. All we needed was two kids for a game. Football was on free TV sudenly and we bacame interested in that also. The first football I played with was one one of the kids Mom sewed together.
The South Bronx was ethnically mixed in my day. We had Latin kids, black kids and white kids (me and my brother). We played anything that would entertain us.
In '85 a few of us found a place that still had pink Spaulding balls. We went to that neighborhood and had a stickball game on a side street. Literally hundreds of people were watching us as if we invented a new game. We showed some kids how to play and even had some of the adults join in. It was so much fun that we left the bat and a few balls there when we left. We went to our cars waving and the neighborhood folks cheered us like we were heroes. It took Spaulding another 15 years before they started making pink High Bounce balls in quantity again, but there are new hazards out there that make playing in the street dangerous. The insanity of bad drivers and lunatics firing guns randomly keep kids from having the same freedoms that I had.
Kids play whatever they learn about. The race card doesn't apply.
As a little boy in the South Bronx, I could come home from playing during the summer and find a baseball game on TV to watch before dinner. On weekends, I could hang out with my Dad watching the Yankees. That was big time, hanging out with my Dad who worked all week. I learned about baseball from him. He never had time to come out to teach me, but he could explain the game while we watched. Seeing his reaction to home runs , great defensive plays and clutch hits, I was intent on being able to do those same things that brought joy to my Dad.
We had seven kids in my family so money was always tight. The kids I played with also lived in a similar condition at home. We would talk baseball during the summer, watch the Yankees in the World Series and talk about how we would be playing pro ball one day.
We discovered the pink ball, the Spaulding High Bounce. We were now ball players. To get one we would go door to door asking for soda bottles that we could bring back for the deposit until we had enough for a ball. When we had enough, we went to the bin and started squeezing the balls, one by one. The hardest balls were the best. They went further when you hit them. We would find a stick somewhere, sometimes at home. (Our Moms really didn't appreciate our inventiveness when it was out turn to 'find' the stick.) We could play street stickball if we had a bunch of kids. If fewer we could play pitching in box ball. But we could play and emulate the guys that brought so much joy to our fathers.
When the Mets started out they couldn't draw flies to games, they were awful. So they started with a program of putting coupons on milk containers. We would go to Met games with the school and scream "Let's Go Mets". It was great fun.
I fancied myself a resourceful kid so when I wanted to go to a Yankee game, I would get up early and start making the rounds for deposit bottles until I had enough to make $1.15. That would give me enough for the subway ride there and back and 75 cents for the bleachers. I'd sit in centerfield watching Mickey Mantle and wonder why people were so mad at Roger Maris. When my Dad had extra money and the time, he would bring my brother and I to a few games and we would sit in the field boxes. Life was beautiful and so was baseball.
Today, baseball is not suited to children. Most games during the week are at night when children have to go to bed before the game is over. Most games are on cable so children who come from large families who cannot have cable can't watch. The price of games have grown to excess. Even sitting in the bleachers is out of reach of children. The PC weirdos have empowered child molesters so it really isn't safe for children to travel alone.
Basketball and football weren't on TV much back then. Basketball is still on free TV in most cities. If someone had a real basketball back then we assumed they came from a well to do family. All we needed was two kids for a game. Football was on free TV sudenly and we bacame interested in that also. The first football I played with was one one of the kids Mom sewed together.
The South Bronx was ethnically mixed in my day. We had Latin kids, black kids and white kids (me and my brother). We played anything that would entertain us.
In '85 a few of us found a place that still had pink Spaulding balls. We went to that neighborhood and had a stickball game on a side street. Literally hundreds of people were watching us as if we invented a new game. We showed some kids how to play and even had some of the adults join in. It was so much fun that we left the bat and a few balls there when we left. We went to our cars waving and the neighborhood folks cheered us like we were heroes. It took Spaulding another 15 years before they started making pink High Bounce balls in quantity again, but there are new hazards out there that make playing in the street dangerous. The insanity of bad drivers and lunatics firing guns randomly keep kids from having the same freedoms that I had.
Kids play whatever they learn about. The race card doesn't apply.
WilliBobo - I have to call them the way I see them. A classic post. I did not grow up in the Bronx but your vivid description brought a tear to my eye. I wonder how many kids excel at baseball merely from the joy they get out of pleasing their fathers.
Most of the people who read this website have seen hundreds youth/high school games over the years. There is a low percentage of African-Americans playing baseball at the younger levels; therefore a lower level at the older levels. The reasons for this are not necessarily due to the number of scholarships available at NCAA schools. Encouragement, availablity of programs, etc., are more likely to be reasons for fewer children playing baseball.
In addition, as baseball is such a skill sport, it can be difficult to develop thos skills at older ages, whereas one can develop the skills necessary to play football in their teenage years much more easily.
In addition, as baseball is such a skill sport, it can be difficult to develop thos skills at older ages, whereas one can develop the skills necessary to play football in their teenage years much more easily.
WillieBobo,
Really enjoyed your post. I am originally a Northern Bronx guy. (Crotona and 187th in the Fordham section).
Box ball!!!
Man - I havent heard that term in a long long time. Lots of great memories.
Thanks
Really enjoyed your post. I am originally a Northern Bronx guy. (Crotona and 187th in the Fordham section).
Box ball!!!
Man - I havent heard that term in a long long time. Lots of great memories.
Thanks
Can we say STOOP BALL and PUNCH BALL
Stickball with the strike zone chalked out on the wall
And the great SPALDEEN !@!!!!
Stickball with the strike zone chalked out on the wall
And the great SPALDEEN !@!!!!
WillieBobo,
Great post!
Brought back memories of playing home run derby in unused tennis courts, learning to hit using broomsticks and pop bottle caps, playing 3 flys up, etc...
Great post!
Brought back memories of playing home run derby in unused tennis courts, learning to hit using broomsticks and pop bottle caps, playing 3 flys up, etc...