Nearly perfect offer, but....

Ask him to consider what he's learned about each program and if he knew all of that but not the names and locations of the schools, which would he choose? 

I'll also add that the relationship with the HC, RC and or PC is critical. The gut is a pretty good indicator. Once you are there, you are in their hands.

Congrats and Good luck!

This is really simple.  Take the scholarship at school #2.  That is the only school that is willing to invest athletic $ in your son. Therefore they are the only school out of the 3 that will really be committed to him. The whole commitment thing needs to be a 2 way street. A PWO is not an offer. It’s an invitation - and 10 more kids are gonna get the same invitation. Those situations rarely work out for the player. School 3 HC has already shown his true colors - so believe him.  You know the right thing to do. You just need to convince your son that it’s the right thing to do. That might mean that it would be good to find a baseball mentor that he trusts to talk some sense into him (instead of you trying to do it). Just my 2 cents. 

PS : Las Vegas was built on “what if’s”

School #2 sounds like the best option from how you describe it. I think it's generally best to go where you're wanted.

The absolute cardinal rule -- go where you are loved and where you love them back.  Ask son as well -- where would he go if baseball wasn't in the cards.  Cause maybe it won't be.  Son could get hurt, the coach could leave, etc...  

Sure, you can always transfer -- but...  

"The second offer is nearly perfect."

What more needs to be discussed? He got exactly what he's looking for - an affordable school with good baseball where everything else is a match. 

You need to let him know that it's almost August and if he has a good thing in the hand he shouldn't wait until it's gone. Ask him if school #3 is a good fit. If he thinks playing time will be an issue and he feels uncomfortable with the coach why even consider it? If they've seen him 6x, he's been to 3 camps and invited him to another workout thats now at least 9-10x they've seen him without an offer. Not typically a good thing.

Your son needs to commit to school 2 within the week.  If he doesn't, he could find himself at school 3 without a choice in the matter. 

Without a doubt ... school #2. The first "offer" is not an offer. 

The P5 school has not even offered yet. They may continue to string him along. If they are already pointing out his flaws during the recruitment phase (dating process) then I can't imagine them falling in love with him? I don't see this ending well.

A very wise coach told me... You get yourself better in college. Go where the coaches love you and you'll play. If are good enough, you will have a chance to continue on to the next level. Better to be with a coach that believes in you and will give you the opportunities to get on the mound and develop.

As far as what to say to a 16 year old? Present it to him in a different analogy...... If he was trying to choose a date for Prom... 

1st girl reluctantly said she would go, but you really aren't a couple, and if anyone else shows up at Prom that she likes better, she will ditch you.

2nd girl like you and has already said yes. She's excited and wants to tell all her friends. 

3rd girl is most popular in school. Everyone wants to take her. She keeps telling you she may say yes, but at the same time tells you that you aren't really popular enough, or good looking enough...but come hang out with me and 14 other guys and let me think it over some more. I'll let you know.

take the names away and who do you like is very good advise. 

I would be willing to bet option 3 goes up in flames before the end of the freshman year if not the end of freshman fall. "the coach has shown his true colors so believe him" I have found to be an accurate assessment. I will bet a large amount of money he will like him less if he actually gets onto campus. 

kid loves school, money is good, school is "geeked up" to get him (I assume this is good) ?!?! it appears to be a no brainer.

Love the "prom date" example. 

I totally agree that Option 2 is the way to go, but I want this to be my son's decision, and not me telling him what's best. So I'm just trying to figure out how to get him to realize it himself. 

If we take away the names, it's option 2. All. Day. Long. Just gotta get my 2020 there. 

Congrats to him on the interest and offers!

To the 16 y.o. - I would take the angle of reminding him how hard he has worked to PLAY college baseball at the D1 level and how special it would be to reach his goals and dreams and be a contributing player at that level (as well as keeping the dream alive for baseball beyond college). 

With continued hard work, it appears that he will have a very real chance to do so with #2 with the proven support of a staff that is known for developing players and holds the same values.  While, with the same continued hard work, it as a strong possibility that he will ultimately not PLAY college baseball (or very little) at #1 or #3.  With PWO, no matter what they tell you, if there are other P's who are showing roughly the same talent as him who are getting some scholly $, those others will get the lions share of attention and innings.  With #3, HC has already focused on shortcomings and has not offered.  There is an extremely high likelihood that he is focused on finding other P's he finds more attractive to give that development attention and innings to.  And it sounds like your son is one who specifically either needs or would greatly benefit from further development.

Then, I would follow that with the good point Pabaseball makes - that #3 has seen him at least 8 times and has yet to offer.  The stringing along technique is clear indication that son is quite low on their board.

Then, I would slam the door with Mominthestands' great prom date analogy !!!

Just a guess on my part, but knowing a little bit about human nature there's a decent chance your son would rather tell his buddies that he's headed to P5-Big-U!  (Heck, I would too).

The problem that you need to help him understand - virtually no one is happy once they get to school if the coach doesn't 'love' them as much as the other recruits and you don't get to play for a year or two, if ever.  Happiness comes from playing, not just being on the team (usually).

There are certainly cases where kids beat the odds in this situation and surprise folks.  No one can discount that its possible thats what will happen at #3.  But its unusual.  Your son will learn on day-1 of practice that he was not a priority, that he won't get as much of a chance to succeed as the kid whom the coach loved from the start and you will get a call within a week or two.

You know your son better than any of us - after his freshman year, will he be happier with a cool uniform but little playing time?

Trust me....playing on a team that isn't good is absolutely no fun.  I can speak from my son's 4 years of experience.  He loved the school and his teammates....which is the only reason he made it thru 4 years in that program.   I'd jump at #2 in a heartbeat.  The "getting kids to the next level" thing is irrelevant.  A kid at a mid-major that is deserving of getting drafted or signed in the pros will likely get that chance, no matter where he is playing.   The fact that he needs to decide "before the money runs out" is tough...but at this point, it's almost August, most 2020's have committed....the fact that they even have money left is kind of a surprise....and kids will be jumping at offers now that the summer season is winding down.  I'd take it before it's gone.  Good luck

2020two-way-parent posted:

……………..

The OBVIOUS choice is the mid-major. However, son is having trouble giving up the P5 hometown school. 

For anyone in a similar situation, how can we guide our son to the mature decision? What gentle guidance works on a 16 year old kid? We want this to be HIS decision and I think he knows it’s school #2, but can’t get past the “what if’s” with the P5. The private camp is two weeks away. We don’t want to lose the scholarship from school #2 if we wait too long and it’s really the best choice for him. 

Thanks! 

Agreed.  I think you should jump on #2 and quickly.  No brainer.

Guidance - Playing time.   School has skin the game with your son both athletically and academically and probably a much better chance of actually playing at #2.  I've seen way too many kids lose perspective with P5 schools IMHO.  My son had two teammates take the P5 offer when both could have played 4 years at a great D1 mid-major and get a great education to boot.   Both had incredible skills. Both all-state players.  Both were being considered for the MLB draft.  Both were done by Fall of Junior year at respective P5 (both College WS teams).   I know more players just like them.    Financial - Wouldn't it be nice to have money (or little debt) after college to buy a car or house?   Take the financial incentives that are being offered you....there is a reason why they are being offered or not offered as the case may be.  

 with you & all others that #2 is the way to go...

I'd also suggest you study the #3 roster the past 5-7 years...See who stayed around all 4 years. You'll probably see a BIG turnover rate!  Another point...is if Coach has NOT had success the last 2 seasons, he may be treading on thin ice! Check his Asst Coaches, as well...

The prom analogy is great! Your son can relate to that easily!

Good luck!

2020two-way-parent posted:

Love the "prom date" example. 

I totally agree that Option 2 is the way to go, but I want this to be my son's decision, and not me telling him what's best. So I'm just trying to figure out how to get him to realize it himself. 

If we take away the names, it's option 2. All. Day. Long. Just gotta get my 2020 there. 

My college advisor once told me he and my dad had worked out what I should do with my life. He wouldn't tell me what that was though "we're just going to manipulate you into doing it."

That's what you are looking for — how to manipulate your son into doing what will be best for him.

For us, it was always conversation. From the time he was small, we asked him to rate things, to think about what he liked and what he didn't like, and when he said "I don't like this" we'd come back with why? What would you like to have different? Does anyone you know offer that difference? 

Talk. It's the best way to get from you knowing what's right to him knowing it.

Just had a talk with him and used suggestions from this thread. He's ready to let #3 go. Thank you!

Now it's just between #1 and #2. College #1 found out about the #2 offer (not from us) and wants us to speed up the date for our visit and still come talk about "options." It's a five-hour trip so I'm thinking about it. If #3 didn't have scholarship money last week, I'm guessing it won't magically appear this week, so maybe the option is something about "the future" if he performs, or perhaps some reassurance that they really believe in him but truly don't have the dollars. 

Son's main concern is that when he has told some friends about #2, a couple of them said "Where is that? Is it D1?" Anyone who knows baseball knows #2...just not the every day kids at high school. Working to get him to the point where he doesn't care about that.  

I get it...I was 16 once. 

There is an abundance of threads here on the pitfalls of preferred walk ons.  You and he should read up and be fully aware.  

Also, we don't know the financial situation... if you are able to comfortably cover the balance for school #1, if he will have any skin in the game, etc., but you should definitely be having those discussions in detail if you haven't already.  So important from Fenway...

Financial - Wouldn't it be nice to have money (or little debt) after college to buy a car or house?   Take the financial incentives that are being offered you....there is a reason why they are being offered or not offered as the case may be. 

Maybe #1 is also an option.  While I strongly suggest you fully explore the pitfalls, there are also scenarios where it (PWO) plays out well.  You presented things with your heavy bias toward #2, which is understandable, but if #1 wants to speed up the process of a visit and discuss options, maybe it makes sense to go ahead and do so and get all the information you can soon and make a more informed decision.  Meanwhile, he can make sure he communicates with #2, states his sincere interest and lets them know he plans on making a decision in a very short time frame and see if that matches up with their expectations so he has a better idea of whether he is putting that offer at risk.

To this point, you have only presented the baseball aspect of each college.  There are so many other things to weigh.  Be sure to give sufficient consideration to those many other factors as well.

We all totally get the 16 thing.  I wish I had some simple advice that addresses the concern that his friends didn't recognize the preferred school as a D1.  I can tell you that it is very normal for those not really close to the situation to talk in terms of recognizable schools, etc.   Friends and family will ask those silly questions.  But at the end of the day, it is you and he that have walked the long, hard path to this point and really know what the best direction is for his baseball and academic future.  And, as far as friends go, five years from now, they will be far more impressed that he had a successful college career with the right school than if he picked up twelve mop-up innings over an abbreviated two year stint and then quit or transferred from the wrong school. 

IT HAPPENS FAR TOO OFTEN ...  and is much more likely to happen to a walk on.  That said, there are certainly no guarantees to his success for any of this.  What puts him in the best position?

So, just went through similar last week. You are fishing in a bigger pond, but son had to decide between 2 schools. Was pretty obvious for his mother and I what the better option was (offer, quality of education, distance).

After basically "talking him to death" for half a day. We just left him alone. He came to the decision we agreed with on his own....I think he knew it was the best choice along, but as a 16yo he didn't want to be talked into it by his parents.

Sounds like the Power 5 has an "A-minus" type coach. I'd avoid that. Your son has done the work to have multiple offers. Good luck. 

Number one is a preferred walk on. How many players do you believe where told this for one or two roster spots. 

Number three sounds like a roll of the dice and best case scenario a lot of losing unless things are turned around. The coach is already telling your son his flaws.

Number three is “nearly perfect” with lots of money including baseball money (baseball investment in the player).

Making a college decision is a big ticket item. If you were buying a house or a car would you choose anything but “nearly perfect?”

All the kids I know who “reached” for the name school transferred within two years. You want the best college baseball, academic and social experience you can enjoy. 

Keep in mind, families are faced with this dilemma across the country, whether a sport is involved or not.  Yes, you want your son to make a choice, but there are sometimes restrictions (financial, location, etc.) in which the families also have a say.

To me, going to the P5 seems like an emotional type decision, disregarding the warning signs, where the family should intervene.

One clarification...the PWO comes with a guaranteed roster spot for the Spring. But of course, this is not in writing but the coach has a reputation for being a man of his word. Haven't checked contract length.

I was fortunate to play on championship teams in both HS & College. Our best pitcher in HS was 6’-6”, threw 90 & had a wipeout slider. This was back in the salad days of the SWC and there were no limits on scholarships. Robert had full ride offers from every school in the SWC except Texas. Texas offered 50% for one year. He took the deal at Texas because he bleeds orange. He got sh$t on by Gustafson for 3 years until having a fantastic senior year. Then Gus blackballed him in the MLB draft.  All that couldn’t happen now but Robert will tell you today that he made one of the worst decisions in his life by choosing the way he did. Choosing between schools is a business decision as much as anything else and should not be based on emotion. 

2020two-way-parent posted:

One clarification...the PWO comes with a guaranteed roster spot for the Spring. But of course, this is not in writing but the coach has a reputation for being a man of his word. Haven't checked contract length.

 

18-20 players (of 35) get reasonable playing time. Up to 27 players may receive athletic money. Typically a walk on is player 28-35. He better move the needle and move up the roster in value real fast in fall ball.** Otherwise he’s facing 12+ new recruits the following season if he’s even asked to return. If he wants out or is tossed out and wants to continue to play D1 he now has to sit out a transfer year. It means essentially going two years without playing. 

** Of course your kid can move the needle real fast. It’s what all the other 28-35’s on the team are telling themselves. 

RJM posted:

2020two-way-parent posted:

One clarification...the PWO comes with a guaranteed roster spot for the Spring. But of course, this is not in writing but the coach has a reputation for being a man of his word. Haven't checked contract length.

 

18-20 players (of 35) get reasonable playing time. Up to 27 players may receive athletic money. Typically a walk on is player 28-35. He better move the needle and move up the roster in value real fast in fall ball.** Otherwise he’s facing 12+ new recruits the following season if he’s even asked to return. If he wants out or is tossed out and wants to continue to play D1 he now has to sit out a transfer year. It means essentially going two years without playing. 

** Of course your kid can move the needle real fast. It’s what all the other 28-35’s on the team are telling themselves. 

Walk ons can transfer without having to sit out a year. 

Internally, within the confines of a College baseball department, There is a HUGE difference between scholarship freshman and walk on freshman.

Your son will be playing with guys 3-4 years older than himself. Guys that are really good. And the opposition is really good. If your son is a hitter, he's gonna see breaking pitches and FB's that he hasn't seen before. If you watch a freshman hit in fall ball , they're usually in an 0-2 count real quick.

If your son is a pitcher, he's gonna throw stuff that guys in HS swung and missed at. In D-1 ball , those balls get hit. Hard. If he relied on Velo in HS to get guys out, he now needs to learn to spin the ball and change speeds because D-1 hitters are sit'n FB and will crush a 92 mph FB

This is all going to be a huge adjustment. And it will all be done away from home in a strange new place.

A major difference between HS ball and D1 baseball that really isn't talked about here a whole lot is that a D1 HC makes pretty good money. Most jobs are 6 figures + . They are paid to WIN. If they lose , they are subject to being fired. And most these guys are married with families. They are only concerned with W's. That's it. Inversely, as far as individual players and playing time, they play the guys that help them win. Period.

I'm typing this because most parents don't realize that even with baseball money, most freshman sit a lot their first year. Also, most the players that are offered at the D1 level are pretty good HS players. They are accustomed to the usual accolades and regular playing time that go with that. It's not like this at the D1 level. You're just another FRESHMAN. As a player you are considered 'unproven'. And that's WITH baseball money. Lastly, after the recruiting process your son isn't going to interact very much with the HC. My son would go weeks without speaking to the HC .

My son said it best:  "The only time the HC talks to you is if you're in trouble"

My point is that the game gets HARDER . The Coaches know this. The difference between a scholarshiped athlete and a non-scholarshiped athlete is that the Scholarshiped guy is given more time to adjust. Viewed another way, they are not going to give your son developmental playing time if it takes away playing time from a kid that they have money in. No way. 

 The only players that take walk on deals are the ones that weren't offered baseball money deals. Conversely, for a player to walk away from baseball money to pursue a walk on spot at another school is just Madness.

Go where you are loved!   Go where you can play!  Go where you can get a degree, with scholarship help!   4 hours is very drive-able to see son play!   Can't stress this enough, so bears repeating. 

StrainedOblique posted:

My point is that the game gets HARDER . The Coaches know this. The difference between a scholarshiped athlete and a non-scholarshiped athlete is that the Scholarshiped guy is given more time to adjust. Viewed another way, they are not going to give your son developmental playing time if it takes away playing time from a kid that they have money in. No way. 

 The only players that take walk on deals are the ones that weren't offered baseball money deals. Conversely, for a player to walk away from baseball money to pursue a walk on spot at another school is just Madness.

This is what I was going to post, but you beat me to it.  The college has a vested interest ($$$) in an athlete they have offered an athletic scholarship to whereas they have no vested interest in a walk on.   They'll be more apt to give an athlete with an athletic scholarship more chances than a walk on.

Keewart said it best.   Go where you are loved.   Love is expressed in scholarship money.

d-mac posted:

RJM posted:

2020two-way-parent posted:

One clarification...the PWO comes with a guaranteed roster spot for the Spring. But of course, this is not in writing but the coach has a reputation for being a man of his word. Haven't checked contract length.

 

18-20 players (of 35) get reasonable playing time. Up to 27 players may receive athletic money. Typically a walk on is player 28-35. He better move the needle and move up the roster in value real fast in fall ball.** Otherwise he’s facing 12+ new recruits the following season if he’s even asked to return. If he wants out or is tossed out and wants to continue to play D1 he now has to sit out a transfer year. It means essentially going two years without playing. 

** Of course your kid can move the needle real fast. It’s what all the other 28-35’s on the team are telling themselves. 

Walk ons can transfer without having to sit out a year. 

Even if they’re rostered for a year and get in a handful of games?

RJM posted:

d-mac posted:

RJM posted:

2020two-way-parent posted:

One clarification...the PWO comes with a guaranteed roster spot for the Spring. But of course, this is not in writing but the coach has a reputation for being a man of his word. Haven't checked contract length.

 

18-20 players (of 35) get reasonable playing time. Up to 27 players may receive athletic money. Typically a walk on is player 28-35. He better move the needle and move up the roster in value real fast in fall ball.** Otherwise he’s facing 12+ new recruits the following season if he’s even asked to return. If he wants out or is tossed out and wants to continue to play D1 he now has to sit out a transfer year. It means essentially going two years without playing. 

** Of course your kid can move the needle real fast. It’s what all the other 28-35’s on the team are telling themselves. 

Walk ons can transfer without having to sit out a year. 

Even if they’re rostered for a year and get in a handful of games?

Yes.  It's a new rule that just went into effect.  If you are not on athletic aid you can transfer with immediate eligibility.  

Good thread. Two things I haven't read yet, is which of the three have his course or study and will any of the three let him be a two-way player (looking at OP's "moniker")? Son had a HS teammate that went to play for a well known P5, as a "preferred walk-on." Some were surprised he landed there. Word was always "walk on" but he has a spot. He's had 33 ABs his first three years and the "rust" has shown in his summer ball experiences. I'll vote with the Chorus- Door #2. I think your son will given more of an opportunity, and 4 hours isn't that far. It's almost August.. $$ won't be there forever for 2020's.

Re: Course of study and two-way: 

#2 and #3 have the best programs that match his academic major

#1 and #2 both said OK to two-way; #3 hasn't said yet

2020two-way-parent posted:

Re: Course of study and two-way: 

#2 and #3 have the best programs that match his academic major

#1 and #2 both said OK to two-way; #3 hasn't said yet

 

If I was deciding ...

Unless your son is going to become a top of the draft prospect and #1 is going to help get him there #1is out. 

#2 is offering a lot of money. #3 isn’t offering money, just walking on.

#2 is considering letting him be a two way player. #3 is as committed to him being a two way as they are to giving him money. 

If this were Let’s Make A Deal I’m guessing the car is behind door #2 and a donkey with a cart is behind door #3. 

2020two-way-parent posted:

Re: Course of study and two-way: 

#2 and #3 have the best programs that match his academic major

#1 and #2 both said OK to two-way; #3 hasn't said yet

 

My goodness, the answer got a LOT easier IMO.

#1 not a match for major - eliminate them

#3 not committing to him in any way, actually critiquing him - eliminate them

#2 match for major and offering money - DING! DING!  Easy choice.  Game over.  Buy the t-shirts!

Do you have to pay for the private workout with school 3? 

Have him make a list of pros and cons for each of the 3 schools. We did this. Having it in black and white in his own handwriting might help a great deal. The list can also be used for a family discussion. You can ask him if “xyz” should be on the list. He will figure it out. I recommend getting started quickly. 

The private workout will cost $10. 

Have your son do himself a huge favor and text school 3. Tell them he has a very good offer from another school and barring any changes he plans on accepting very soon.

They will either find a way to make money and an offer magically appear or they never had high interest and he knows where he stands with them. It's August tomorrow. Your son has other offers, it's on them at this point. 

2019 had offers and was close to making a decision. One of the schools he had been talking to said come up to our camp and if we like what we see we'll make an offer. No thanks, they had seen him all summer and he had offers from better schools. There was an offer later that night. 

Put the ball in their court. Force them into action and they'll show their true interest. 

I just re-read your original post. I understand your sons' "what if's" of the P5...Listen, that is ego talking!  Got to "let go the EGO!"...

Look again at all the red flags...Seen him, but no offer? Private tryout that costs you money? Bad reputation? Awkward conversations? Critical of skills? They are playing games with you, man! 

Somewhat reminiscent of son's path back in the day (except great reputation, winning program & small offer)...At 1 particular school, kids were 3 abreast & 100 deep to play for THE COACH, to play for THAT Program on THAT Field !! And school knew it!  Intimidating, to say the least...Patience paid off, logic paid off...If your son is having the kind of gut reaction you describe, encourage him to trust it! And, pay attention to all those red flags! 

#2 is still the choice!