Need another ruling about a base hit or not.

If the batter/runner reaches first with no error committed, it should be considered a hit.

here are a couple of sites that may serve as references for stats or scoring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_statistics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Baseball_statistics

I considered it a throwing error on the SS and thus scored it an error.

You can't score it an error if it's the best he can do. Also it doesn't fit the description of an error.

I wanna make sure I understand ...

you punished YOUR team-mate by not awarding a hit because the other team is less skilled than you think they should be


your team will soon have a new SK & you will be bringing the post game snacks

I saw a similar play on Friday in a local HS game. The SS fielded the average speed ground ball, seemed to have been counting the seams on the ball, but he stood up straight, then made a his normal throw over to first, not much zing on it, by the time the 1Bman caught it the runner was getting into his lead at first (ok maybe just a little exageration). His throw pulled the 1B off the bag about a foot, but by that time the runner was about a full step past the bag. It was ruled a hit, and I agree with the ruling. Never bobbled, no throwing error, he just underestimated the speed of the runner. It's a hit.

quote:

by GM - seemed to have been counting the seams on the ball

interesting ..

ya see that all to often, yet I never heard of it being taught, so where do they learn it

let me rephrase that.....

fielded the ground ball, stood up, THEN seemed to be counting the seams on the ball, and THEN made his normal throw over to first....

hey wait a minute ... there's only 1 seam, they're counting the stitches ..

the way I got it figured, many SS are math freaks & dub themselves responsible for the integrity of the game

if that count is NOT exactly 108, they instantly realize it's NOT a legal ball & toss it past the 1B and into the stands out of play

other times a smudge of dirt causes them to loose count making the throw seem slower than normal

Look at the rule below. Unless I’m mistaken, that’s the basis for what most of those saying its should be a hit is coming from.

2006- OBR
ERRORS
10.13
An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases.
NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error.

Although I happen to agree that it should be a hit, looking in the NFHS book, one could come to a different conclusion. There is no such admonition as in NOTE (1). If the person marking the score wasn’t aware what OBR said and just looked the NFHS book, I can see how they might mark it as an error, and have firm ground to stand on.

gimages considering it a throwing error would have been well with the NFHS guidelines of what an error was. That begs the question, should SK’s allow OBR to overrule NFHS on something like this?

All good input. Rescored play to a hit! I was not trying to punish any player the same way I would not pad a players stats. Just the way I saw it, but with all the great experience on this site I learned something about a play that is rarely seen and and the correct definition of an error. In discussing the play with the player on game day he felt it was an error and did not want that type of base hit. I will let him know of the change in the scorebook. I am not the offical SK, but have fun with it and want to learn as much as I can and be good at SK the same as I ask of my son with all the effort I expect him to put into getting better at BB. Lead by example.

One more question please. I think I got this one correct. One out, no score, home team pitching. Batter hits ball to right field. Right fielder comes up with ball and throws to first. First dose not expect throw from right fielder. Gets to first base but is a little off balance as the ball gets to him about a step before the runner touches first. First baseman drops ball. Runner is safe. I score it an error on first baseman. No base hit. Is this correct? Thanks again for all the good advice. It is great to have such a great resource on SK.

quote:

he comes up with ball and throws to first. First dose not expect throw from right fielder

only the RF's mom would expect that play to be made & she'd expect it 100% of the time


it rarely happens that a batter is thrown out at 1b from RF -
imo when it does happen it's an extraodinary play/effort .. not ordinary
AND a case could prolly be made that it's really an error on the runner - too slow/lackadaisical

man you're brutal

quote:

Originally posted by gimages:
One more question please. I think I got this one correct. One out, no score, home team pitching. Batter hits ball to right field. Right fielder comes up with ball and throws to first. First dose not expect throw from right fielder. Gets to first base but is a little off balance as the ball gets to him about a step before the runner touches first. First baseman drops ball. Runner is safe. I score it an error on first baseman. No base hit. Is this correct? Thanks again for all the good advice. It is great to have such a great resource on SK.

Heavy Lies the Crown of an SK who’s really trying to a good job.

You better watch out or the coach at your kid’s school will find out he’s got someone he can “recruit”!

Rather than starting with quoting rules, lemme start by asking you a question. Let’s assume the RF throws the ball to 1st and the 1B catches it and tags first for the out. Would that have been an extraordinary play, or a normal one in your opinion. I’m just gonna guess, but I’m thinkin’ there would have been a lot of whoopin’ and hollerin’, along with some high 5’s and the coach hollering out to the RF that he’d made a great heads up play.

Although the NHFS rules say nothing about “ordinary effort”, that’s been the standard in OBR for quite some time, and how most SK’s I know try to judge whether or not something is a hit or an error.

Your description of the throw beating the batter-runner, but only by a step, and that you already think the 1B was surprised by the throw, makes me lean toward the hit, not the error.

This is another one where NFHS doesn’t give you the help quoted below, but I use it.

2006 – OBR – 10.05 NOTE: In applying the above rules, always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. A safe course to follow is to score a hit when exceptionally good fielding of a ball fails to result in a putout.

I’m not trying to talk you out of marking the error at all! I’m trying to give you the benefit of as much information as possible, so you can make up your own mind. You have to come up with your own “style” because you’re the only one lookin’ through your eyes.

I’ve known SKs who do things like break plays like that apart. FI, they consider it one play to just get in and field the ball cleanly. That’s because there could be an error on just that part of the overall play. Then they look at the throw as another play, because it too could have generated an error. Then they look at the fielding of the throw and yet a different part of the play for the same reason. Personally, I do that, but I wouldn’t on this play, but if it helps you to get straight in your mind how you want to score something, I don’t see a problem.

I’ve also seen guys who wouldn’t score it an error just because it isn’t an ordinary play, ordinary defined by something the team routinely practices, and not many HS teams I’ve seen practice throwing runners out at 1st from the OF.

In the end, you just have to pull up your britches and make the call you feel is correct. What some people who keep score don’t fully understand is, there’s no big hurry to make a decision on how you score something. You get to think about it, cogitate on it, and even change your mind for at least 24 hours, and even after that, as you can see, its still a distinct possibility. The important thing is that you try your best to get it right.

2006 – OBR 10.01(a) The Official Scorer must make all decisions concerning judgment calls within twenty-four (24) hours after a game has been officially concluded. No judgment decision shall be changed thereafter except, upon immediate application to the League President, the scorer may request a change, citing the reasons for such.

To clarify my last question. The ball was a hard hit one hopper to the right fielder. The runner would have been out if the first baseman catches ball. Yes, a play your don't see everyday, but as I found out the coach does practice this play with the first baseman and right fielder. I did make one mistake in my original post. I went back and checked the scorebook and I scored the play a base hit.

quote:

Originally posted by gimages:
To clarify my last question. The ball was a hard hit one hopper to the right fielder. The runner would have been out if the first baseman catches ball. Yes, a play your don't see everyday, but as I found out the coach does practice this play with the first baseman and right fielder. I did make one mistake in my original post. I went back and checked the scorebook and I scored the play a base hit.

gimages,

No matter how you marked it, as long as you marked it IAW the rules, you were correct. That’s why they call it a judgment call!

I’m gonna make a suggestion here, and hopefully you don’t take it as a suggestion that you start to issue challenges to anyone. When you see a play that you have any doubts about how it should be scored, just walk over to the team’s SK and either ask how they scored it, or just sneak a peek.

If I was the SK, as long as I wasn’t busy doing something, I’d be glad to answer, and I think most SK’s would too. In fact, I’d welcome someone sitting right alongside me who had something better do say and do, other than to talk about TV shows, the news, the local gossip, or anything else I get stuck listening to that’s a distraction.

Error or hit? The O.S. has a lot of lattitude when making a judgement call. In a college game the other day a batter lays down a sacrifice bunt to mover runners over. Third baseman fields ball, bobbles it as he's taking it out of glove, throws to first and
still beats batter with the throw---umpire calls safe(missed the call)---and scorer rules base hit. Radio announcer turns to the OS and says "third baseman bobbled the ball,got to be an error". OS turns to the batter's SID(Sports Info. Director) and says,
"What do you think?", Of course he says "hit" so OS stays with original ruling. Both radio announcers can't believe the home OS would take the word of a visiting SID for the call. BTW, it was an EASY routine play, 3b just bobbled the ball but still beat the runner by a half step. UNREAL.

BTW-Some common misconceptions.

1. Dropped foul ball is NOT an error unless batter reaches first base. Wrong.
Any misplay by a fielder that prolongs the life of a batter IS an error,period.
2. Ball has to touch glove to be ruled error.
Doesn't matter.
3. Runner gets stolen base on perfect throw from catcher and fielder drops ball.Wrong
Rule is "caught stealing" and error on fielder receiving throw.
4. No error on on second part of double play at first if 1B drops throw after runner
is put out at second. WRONG.
It's an error any time a fielder muffs a good throw which if caught would have
resulted in an out.

Before correcting me on these please check these situations out in the scoring rules.
You'll be surprised.

Moc1,

I love stories like that because it shows how difficult it is trying to get every situation right.

In that one, as soon as the ump called “SAFE”. The OSK was pretty much screwed. No matter if it was a good call or a bad one, he has to account for that runner being on base, and even if he wrote volumes and drew pictures in the book, it wouldn’t make any difference, the call would stand.

Personally, once I’ve determined whether or not the fielder made an error, I base a lot of what I’m gonna score at 1st from cues I get from the ump, if he gives them. If I see a straight safe sign given, I take it that the runner beat the throw. If I see the sign given that the fielder was off the bag, to me that says he would have called an out, but is showing why he didn’t. If that’s what happens, I try to decide who was at fault for the fielder being off the bag.

Unfortunately, the ump doesn’t give those indications on every play, but when he does, I defer to his judgment. Its not up to me to judge the umpire’s calls, but only to record what happens during the game. Chances are, on the play you described, once I’d decided whether or not the play and throw were errorless, I’d have scored it a hit because the ump gave every indication that in his judgment the batter-runner beat the throw.

2007 NCAA – Rule 10 Scorer’s Duties SECTION 1. c. The official scorer shall exercise his function based on the following: … (4) The scorer shall not make any decision that conflicts with the NCAA Baseball Rules or an umpire’s decision, …

Since there is obviously a lot of doubt running around on this one, falling back on the following is always a safe course of action.

2007 NCAA – Rule 10 Base Hit SECTION 4. … Note: In applying the above rules, always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. A safe course to follow is to score a hit when exceptionally good fielding fails to result in a putout.

Great job pointing out those common misconceptions! Unfortunately, there are a lot of others too.

Scorekeeper, Good points. The umpire normally does give some kind of indication on close plays at first-especially by making motions with his arms if the fielder was pulled off the bag, which would indicate if the throw were offline, and then you would have to determine if the thrower had to rush his throw and rule hit or error based on the difficulty of the play-speed of runner, etc.

However, on the play I'm talking about, the 3B clearly bobbled the one-hop bunt-the runner would have been out by a full step and a half if he had not. The umpire, in this
instance, just made his call based on his perception(which was also wrong) but had nothing to do with whether the 3B bobbled the ball. An error should have been scored but the OS took the word of the opposing visiting team SID.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
However, on the play I'm talking about, the 3B clearly bobbled the one-hop bunt-the runner would have been out by a full step and a half if he had not. The umpire, in this
instance, just made his call based on his perception(which was also wrong) but had nothing to do with whether the 3B bobbled the ball. An error should have been scored but the OS took the word of the opposing visiting team SID.

Unfortunately, there are gonna always be plays like that hat fall through the cracks. Heck, it’d be a lot easier if baseball had instant replay, but even if they did, they’d never get it at the HS level, so we’d still be screwed.

Heck, I wouldn’t get bothered by who the SK believed or didn’t believe. When I’m scoring down at the field level, there’ s a lot of times in a game I get blocked out or distracted and have to ask someone for some help, and it isn’t very often I can find someone who’s not “leanin’” one way or the other.

When ya get down to it, al anyone can really hope for is that the SK is trying to be fair. As long as that’s happening, s/he’s basically the same all through the game, what else can ya hope for? Its like umps calling pitches. No one really cares if their zone sucks, as long as it sucks pretty much the same for both teams, and pretty much the same from the 1st inning to the last.

So how ’bout it? In general, is the SK who blew that one pretty good, pretty bad, or in the middle?