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Need help on the outside pitch

Just MeJust Me100+ posts
Working with my son. 14. In between end of frosh season and start of Summer ball. RHP and RH hitter.
His strongest field to hit to is straight away center. Up to this week RF was sronger than LF. After frosh season over, when pitching bp to him, see he is avoiding the inner half of the plate almost entirely; couldnt get thru on them so wouldnt go for the inside pitch at all, even if he identified a hanging offspeed. This was consistent with what he was doing in games; was number 4 hitter, soetimes DH if not pitching, so often didnt see a lot of good pitches; several at bats the inside curve or change was the only hittable pitch.

He was able to correct this when we started to work on it, most effective cues were "starting with the hips but clearing the hands inside". Stroke a lot quicker, extension working better. Now has ability to hit home runs to left ( about 325 ft on home warsity field) and can hit centerfield fence in air(385 ft). This is about 30-40 ft further than he was hitting a few weeks ago.

Problem is that he is not hitting the ball very hard to RF now. Still stong to right center (seems to attack it like a straight away center swing). Outside pitch now tendency to flare or sky.
Looking at his swing he seems to shoot his hands out and loses his batspeed, going longer arm and hitting the outside of the ball etc.

Having difficulty coming up with suggestions/cues to get him to stay inside the ball and keep shorter stroke.

Any suggestions?
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M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Just Me:
Working with my son. 14. In between end of frosh season and start of Summer ball. RHP and RH hitter.
His strongest field to hit to is straight away center. Up to this week RF was sronger than LF. After frosh season over, when pitching bp to him, see he is avoiding the inner half of the plate almost entirely; couldnt get thru on them so wouldnt go for the inside pitch at all, even if he identified a hanging offspeed. This was consistent with what he was doing in games; was number 4 hitter, soetimes DH if not pitching, so often didnt see a lot of good pitches; several at bats the inside curve or change was the only hittable pitch.

He was able to correct this when we started to work on it, most effective cues were "starting with the hips but clearing the hands inside". Stroke a lot quicker, extension working better. Now has ability to hit home runs to left ( about 325 ft on home warsity field) and can hit centerfield fence in air(385 ft). This is about 30-40 ft further than he was hitting a few weeks ago.

Problem is that he is not hitting the ball very hard to RF now. Still stong to right center (seems to attack it like a straight away center swing). Outside pitch now tendency to flare or sky.
Looking at his swing he seems to shoot his hands out and loses his batspeed, going longer arm and hitting the outside of the ball etc.

Having difficulty coming up with suggestions/cues to get him to stay inside the ball and keep shorter stroke.

Any suggestions?


Let the pitch get deeper. Do tee work to find out where contact point is. Just draw a line through sweet spot of bat through ball on tee to area on field you want to hit. Start with pitch down the middle of the plate position then move to outside corner and keep moving towards catcher until you get it. Practice hitting pitches at different heights in zone and just out of zone. Next move ball further out and back to help strike recognition and to see just how far out you can hit that pitch and still make solid contact.
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
see he is avoiding the inner half of the plate almost entirely;


There maybe issues with rotation. Many times an amatuer hitter who isnt rotating well will avoid the inside pitch knowing he will get jammed.

quote:
Problem is that he is not hitting the ball very hard to RF now.


When working the ball the other way in BP make sure you put an emphasis on hammering it that way. Often times in BP hitters practice just serving the ball the other way when they need to be scorching it.

quote:
Outside pitch now tendency to flare or sky.


Is he lunging at the ball away? Can you post any videos of his swing? Otherwise you will just get educated guesses, and some not so educated ones...
Last edited by deemax
Just MeJust Me100+ posts
My Bad.
Wasnt clear.
He knows what to do, and can hit outside location hard on solo trainer or tee or toss. In fact, before working on the inside pitch, he was driving outside pitch in games.
The problem is, or seems to me to be, that he chooses the wrong motor program at initiation, or launch. He starts with hands rather than hips, casts his hands out and goes around the ball, occassionally pulling it , more often flaring it or popping up.

What I need is some help on tying the correct "ball away" motor program to what he does when confronted with a live arm outside pitch.
Just MeJust Me100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
The motor program at launch is the same for all locations.

The direction differs.

And that is done with the hands.


Yeah I get that Smile

My problem is that he is NOT launching the same motor program on the outside pitch and THATS the problem I am looking for help with. In a static situation like tee or solo trainer, not a problem. Front toss or side toss, not a problem. From 60' 6' he launches correct program on inside or middle. Work in a pitch to the outside and the hands shoot out and around early; he never makes "correct launch in different direction". Best result is when he simply deals with the pitch as if its in the middle and drives it right back over my head, sometimes a little to LF side of 2nd. He can still drive it to the fence, but there is a limit to how far away from middle that approach will work.

What Im trying to help him with is launching the correct program towards the outside pitch, closing off the front side a bit and finishing toward the right center side. Is that the right path or should the lower half be the same all locations and ALL the correction done with the hands? What works teaching that?
Just MeJust Me100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
This type of barrel action will fix that.



Well I think thats a little beyond both him and me at this point Smile
I Guess I am not getting it. This looks like a mlb hitter doing what my son is trying to do, pull the outside pitch. Are you saying just go with that and hit it harder? Or what? And how do I teach a hs freshman to do that anyway?

This is more what I thought the correct aproach would be:

aaron

Wrong?
Last edited by Just Me
ChameleonChameleon100+ posts
The pitch he pulled was a change up. Another benefit of this barrel action is adjusting to off speed.

The barrel action shown by the professional player is perfect for adjusting in and out.

It's a running start of the barrel that can hit the outside pitch without coming around the ball, yet can be altered on the fly for the inside pitch.

The lead elbow must be down initially. The rear elbow must be driven to the slot. The handle must be torqued, not pulled, at "go".

Last edited by Chameleon
gratefulgrateful1,000+ posts
It sounds like you should have let him stick with the strengths he had. You took away a huge strength he had in hitting well up the middle and oppo......let him get back to that. If he is a good hitter, he'll be able to hit that hanging breaking ball that you are concerned about. The better pitchers rarely hang those.....but now they will be able to get him out on anything on the outer third.

If his strength is hitting up the middle and opposite field, as he grows in strength and stature his ability to pull will improve, too.....no need to overcoach.
Last edited by grateful
Just MeJust Me100+ posts
Naw I dont think so Grateful. His power middle in is much greater than it was b4, as he simply was not getting thru earlier, plus, tho he could get the ball a long ways to RF the distance was of the "towering" sort, so if it wasnt all the way out it was very playable. Now he hits further with less hang time. Middle and inside are both better than before, right side I think will be if I can get him to start properly.
I will try to post some video but that will take some time to arrange with work and all.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Just Me:
Naw I dont think so Grateful. His power middle in is much greater than it was b4, as he simply was not getting thru earlier, plus, tho he could get the ball a long ways to RF the distance was of the "towering" sort, so if it wasnt all the way out it was very playable. Now he hits further with less hang time. Middle and inside are both better than before, right side I think will be if I can get him to start properly.
I will try to post some video but that will take some time to arrange with work and all.


I would say he is having timing problems. The ouside pitch still needs to be hit deeper in the zone to be hit with anything on it. If he is taking his head toward the incoming pitch as much as Aaron did, he will always have problems with either inside or outside pitches and a pitcher who changes speeds well will kill him more often than not.
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
If he is taking his head toward the incoming pitch as much as Aaron did, he will always have problems with either inside or outside pitches and a pitcher who changes speeds well will kill him more often than not.


I agree, you dont want to look up and see your kid struggle the way Aaron did with off-speed and the inner and outer half. Big Grin
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
You guys are the great mechanics gurus, you teaching this technique???


You think Hank Aaron did it wrong and you expect others to follow your thought process???. Do you feel qualified to take this "technique" away from a kid who uses it, and uses it well?....I dont look at what the greatest home run hitters of all time and decide "gee, I guess they got it wrong".

To answer your question I'm not sure if I would teach it, but I sure as he11 would not take it away...would you?
Last edited by deemax
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
quote:
You guys are the great mechanics gurus, you teaching this technique???


You think Hank Aaron did it wrong and you expect others to follow your thought process???. Do you feel qualified to take this "technique" away from a kid who uses it, and uses it well?....I dont look at what the greatest home run hitters of all time and decide "gee, I guess they got it wrong".

To answer your question I'm not sure if I would teach it, but I sure as he11 would not take it away...would you?


If he were in a slump and I thought timing was the problem, absolutely. I would say 95% of hitting instructors would do the same.
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
If he were in a slump and I thought timing was the problem, absolutely.


Why do you always associate timing problems with forward movement.

If a hitter was hitting well at one point with mechanics that resembled Hank Aaron's, then he gets in a slump with the same mechanics, your first move is to tell him not to use the same swing as when he was hitting well? Your concept of a hitters timing is flawed.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
quote:
If he were in a slump and I thought timing was the problem, absolutely.


Why do you always associate timing problems with forward movement.

If a hitter was hitting well at one point with mechanics that resembled Hank Aaron's, then he gets in a slump with the same mechanics, your first move is to tell him not to use the same swing as when he was hitting well? Your concept of a hitters timing is flawed.


The more movement you have in your swing, the harder it is to have good timing on ALL pitches. This hitter at the moment and even before this problem came up, could only hit in one direction (inside or outside). Again, if I saw his swing in person or I video taped it, I may see something else that might catch my eye and change that first. Hank Aaron had over 12,000 at bats and that is the only reason he is the all time home run leader. I think if he played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style. That's just my opinion. I have an opinion and you have an opinion. I would much rather take what a hitter has and incorporate Ted Williams' style into it than Hank Aaron's. If Ted Williams had the same number of at bats as Hank Aaron, HE would be the all time leader in Home Runs and hits. I'd rather take the best swing as a pattern than just a better than average one. If you gave Hank Aaron 7700 at bats like Williams had, he wouldn't be on any all time leaders list. That's not an opinion, it's a fact!
W wrstdude10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:

The more movement you have in your swing, the harder it is to have good timing on ALL pitches. This hitter at the moment and even before this problem came up, could only hit in one direction (inside or outside). Again, if I saw his swing in person or I video taped it, I may see something else that might catch my eye and change that first. Hank Aaron had over 12,000 at bats and that is the only reason he is the all time home run leader. I think if he played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style. That's just my opinion. I have an opinion and you have an opinion. I would much rather take what a hitter has and incorporate Ted Williams' style into it than Hank Aaron's. If Ted Williams had the same number of at bats as Hank Aaron, HE would be the all time leader in Home Runs and hits. I'd rather take the best swing as a pattern than just a better than average one. If you gave Hank Aaron 7700 at bats like Williams had, he wouldn't be on any all time leaders list. That's not an opinion, it's a fact!


So you're saying this movement is bad?

Just MeJust Me100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
The pitch he pulled was a change up. Another benefit of this barrel action is adjusting to off speed.

The barrel action shown by the professional player is perfect for adjusting in and out.

It's a running start of the barrel that can hit the outside pitch without coming around the ball, yet can be altered on the fly for the inside pitch.

The lead elbow must be down initially. The rear elbow must be driven to the slot. The handle must be torqued, not pulled, at "go".



Torqued?
As in? By?
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wogdoggy:
Originally posted by micmeister:
The more movement you have in your swing, the harder it is to have good timing on ALL pitches.



BULL snot..try being a dead hands hitter and get the outside pitch..let me know how you do.


Obviously, I'm not talking about pre-swing and I'm talking more of body and head movement. This is not even a point that can be argued...well...with any logic that is. Even if there are only two moving objects, a speed change in either object will cause them to meet at different points.


I can't wait for when the guys you've taught get to the big leagues, because their will be so many .400 hitters the games will be more like softball games. It must be very comforting for guys like Bluedog, Chameleon, Deemax, and now Wogdoggy to know that they have all of the answers in hitting.
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
mic
quote:
Hank Aaron had over 12,000 at bats and that is the only reason he is the all time home run leader. I think if he played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style.


The hall of fame is loaded with hitters who had lots of movement, and oh yeah... the above quote is embarassing.
Last edited by deemax
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
I wouldn't say it's ideal. Listen, some MLB players are physical freaks and they can get away with things in their swing that would not be considered sound. For me, that is way too much movement for a regular hitter. For that guy, he is physically gifted and can get away with it.


Thank you! Someone with some common sense! Look, I know I don't have all of the answers, but I know when someone argues a point like this, they are only trying to be a smart a**. IMO, you have to start with some basics and simplify the swing as much as possible when hitters are having problems. Then you can add things a little at a time if needed. I have broken many hitting slumps by my students just by spreading their feet to keep them from getting out over their front foot or to keep their head from moving so much. It works! I then let them slowly bring their feet back to their comfort zone as they start hitting consistently again.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
mic
quote:
Hank Aaron had over 12,000 at bats and that is the only reason he is the all time home run leader. I think if he played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style.


The hall of fame is loaded with hitters who had lots of movement, and oh yeah... the above quote is embarassing.


The first sentence is fact. The second is an opinion. I have one of you to, but you probably already know you're one of those.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wrstdude:
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:

The more movement you have in your swing, the harder it is to have good timing on ALL pitches. This hitter at the moment and even before this problem came up, could only hit in one direction (inside or outside). Again, if I saw his swing in person or I video taped it, I may see something else that might catch my eye and change that first. Hank Aaron had over 12,000 at bats and that is the only reason he is the all time home run leader. I think if he played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style. That's just my opinion. I have an opinion and you have an opinion. I would much rather take what a hitter has and incorporate Ted Williams' style into it than Hank Aaron's. If Ted Williams had the same number of at bats as Hank Aaron, HE would be the all time leader in Home Runs and hits. I'd rather take the best swing as a pattern than just a better than average one. If you gave Hank Aaron 7700 at bats like Williams had, he wouldn't be on any all time leaders list. That's not an opinion, it's a fact!


So you're saying this movement is bad?

I wouldn't teach it! Would you???

ChameleonChameleon100+ posts
mic

You are completely out of your league. Movement is critical to timing.

Doesn't matter how many times you say that "it is not even arguable", you clearly haven't done your homework.

A hitter has to get to the launch position in such a way so as to have momentum to generate a good swing. And, he has to be able to swing ON DEMAND. In other words, he has to be able to have this momentum and be able to store it (for a fraction of a second) or use it depending on the pitch speed and location.

This is the running start of the high level swing. The barrel and/or the lower body must be in motion way before launch. And this movement has to be accomplished so that there is a distinct difference between "start" and "go" and it must be done in such a way that "go" can be on demand.....at any given instance.

If you really think you can accomplish this without a fairly significant amount of movement you are mistaken.

This means a hitter has to have his own rhythmic preswing move that leads to a sudden actual swing. And that this preswing move has to be timed to a pitch that may vary in speed by 20-25 mph. Not to mention all the location possiblities.

This simply can not be accomplished without significant movement.
Last edited by Chameleon
deemaxdeemax500+ posts
quote:
Look, I know I don't have all of the answers, but I know when someone argues a point like this, they are only trying to be a smart a**.


Ignoring what the greats do is ignorant. There is nothing "smart a**" about it. Im sorry your not capable of comprehending how silly you sound when you preach against the greats.
Last edited by deemax
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
mic

You are completely out of your league. Movement is critical to timing.

Doesn't matter how many times you say that "it is not even arguable", you clearly haven't done your homework.

A hitter has to get to the launch position in such a way so as to have momentum to generate a good swing. And, he has to be able to swing ON DEMAND. In other words, he has to be able to have this momentum and be able to store it (for a fraction of a second) or use it depending on the pitch speed and location.

This is the running start of the high level swing. The barrel and/or the lower body must be in motion way before launch. And this movement has to be accomplished so that there is a distinct difference between "start" and "go" and it must be done in such a way that "go" can be on demand.....at any given instance.

If you really think you can accomplish this without a fairly significant amount of movement you are mistaken.

This means a hitter has to have his own rhythmic preswing move that leads to a sudden actual swing. And that this preswing move has to be timed to a pitch that may vary in speed by 20-25 mph. Not to mention all the location possiblities.

This simply can not be accomplished without significant movement.


You mean a trigger???
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
Of course I would teach it.


So would I, in a heartbeat!!


Do you three have a list of the Major or Minor Leaguers you've taught this Frank Thomas swing to? Maybe a Hank Aaron swing??? How about Roberto Clemente??? Those are examples of guys with freakish hand eye coordination and they were able to make it work for them, but if you teach someone to swing with that much back to front movement you are all fools!
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
quote:
Look, I know I don't have all of the answers, but I know when someone argues a point like this, they are only trying to be a smart a**.


Ignoring what the greats do is ignorant. There is nothing "smart a**" about it. Im sorry your not capable of comprehending how silly you sound when you preach against the greats.


I'm sorry you're not capable of using the word YOU'RE instead of YOUR, do you know how silly that makes you look???
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chameleon:
Movement is critical to timing.


A hitter has to get to the launch position in such a way so as to have momentum to generate a good swing.


I never said no movement. What I said was the more movement there is, the more chance of having timing problems.


I also never said you couldn't make ANY swing successful if you practice it enough. I am talking about what should be taught as fundamentals. If you want to teach someone to hit Home Runs, teach Mark McGwire's mechanics. If you want to teach someone to make contact, teach Ty Cobb's mechanics. But, if you want to teach someone to be as productive a hitter as possible, teach Ted Williams mechanics! IMO
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