Need help on the outside pitch

How much movement do you see in the two greatest hitters that ever lived?



I see non stop movement of the upper body. Of the lower body. Of the arms. Of the barrel of the bat.

Could there be any more?

What really is the swing?, it is just the movement toward the ball. I don't care what you do before to start your swing, always that at the time to hit the ball you are square to the hitting point, hands inside the ball and hips and shoulders generating the spin that send the arms and bat to make contact.
But, just because you copy a famous hitter style, doesn't mean you are doing right. Must of those styles were created for personnal circunstances of those players and may be doesn't work for everybody.
You have to do what ever help you to bring the barrel of the bat on time to make good contact with the ball. The shorter and quicker swing that allow the bat to cover most of the strike zone during the stride, is the best way to have hitting success. I don't care what you do before, what stand you use, or what big leaguer swing you copy.

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Originally posted by Chameleon:
How much movement do you see in the two greatest hitters that ever lived?



I see non stop movement of the upper body. Of the lower body. Of the arms. Of the barrel of the bat.

Could there be any more?

Yes, there is "non stop movement", but it is subtle movement. As I said, I never said NO movement! Their head and eyes stay very still and their hands move, but (and again, it's hard for me to put into words) they don't really leave their original position until launch. Yes, I think Ted Williams was the greatest hitter to ever play the game. Barry Bonds was smart enough to copy his swing and it made him quite successful, but I wouldn't say he is the second greatest hitter, just one of the greatest hitters.

mic

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I never said no movement. What I said was the more movement there is, the more chance of having timing problems.

You dont know what your talking about. If a hitter has a lot of movement and is doing well (like most hall of famers) then the timing of his swing doesnt have timing problems. The timing behind an individuals swing with a lot of movement is not compicated to the individual using it, just to the nit-wit coach who doesnt understand it.

mic

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I'm sorry you're not capable of using the word YOU'RE instead of YOUR, do you know how silly that makes you look???

Utterly bush league, but I would expect nothing less from someone with your lack of baseball sense.

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Originally posted by deemax:
mic

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I never said no movement. What I said was the more movement there is, the more chance of having timing problems.

You dont know what your talking about. If a hitter has a lot of movement and is doing well (like most hall of famers) then the timing of his swing doesnt have timing problems. The timing behind an individuals swing with a lot of movement is not compicated to the individual using it, just to the nit-wit coach who doesnt understand it.

mic

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I'm sorry you're not capable of using the word YOU'RE instead of YOUR, do you know how silly that makes you look???

Utterly bush league, but I would expect nothing less from someone with your lack of baseball sense.

You obviously don't read very well. If something is working for someone, I would not change it, but if they were having problems with timing the first thing I would do is cut down on any unnecessary movement. I certainly would not teach someone to hit that way.

If you don't want insults aimed at you, don't use them yourself, just stick with the threads and the things you think are or aren't right.

mic

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You obviously don't read very well.

Sorry, I couldnt understand a word of this.

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having problems with timing the first thing I would do is cut down on any unnecessary movement.

What you deem unnecessary may be necessary....but then again, ignorance is bliss.....

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If you don't want insults aimed at you, don't use them yourself, just stick with the threads and the things you think are or aren't right.

If you don't want insults aimed at you, don't use them yourself, just stick with the threads and the things you think are or aren't right.

listen to you.lol..re check the thread where you believe i deserved a comment like that? you &%$#@

First, THIS IS NOT A FLAMING BOARD. CLEAN IT UP!

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
mic

Movement is critical to timing.

Very true. However, the athletic ability of any person will determine just how much movement that each individual needs in order to necessitate proper timing. I do agree that "dead hands' are bad. Primary to this then is a discussion on those hands and movement. For instance, what Chameleon advocates vs what others advocate. In either case, a sense of "tension" then exist and so that is key to timing.

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A hitter has to get to the launch position in such a way so as to have momentum to generate a good swing. And, he has to be able to swing ON DEMAND. In other words, he has to be able to have this momentum and be able to store it (for a fraction of a second) or use it depending on the pitch speed and location

I'm sure you would agree that this statement, while true, is most of the argument/differences between any and all hitting philosophies. I think we both agree that some of the aspects people want to spend a lot of time arguing such as finish are minute in this discussion.

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"... high level swing."

Here is my problem with this phrase, Exactly where do we apply this statement to the swing? We all agree (I think we do) that you can distinguish certain aspects of successful MLB swings for comparison and they are similar. However, we could also argue that other parts of their swings are very unique to that individual.

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If you really think you can accomplish this without a fairly significant amount of movement you are mistaken.

I disagree but then again, we're talking degrees. Certainly the two examples you give entailed a lot of movement. What might seem like significant amounts of movement for some might seem like insignificant movement when compared to others. Again, movement is necessary.

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... rhythmic preswing move that leads to a sudden actual swing. And that this preswing move has to be timed to a pitch that may vary in speed by 20-25 mph. Not to mention all the location possiblities.

True but then where does that preswing end and the swing begin. Most would describe it at heel plant. Do you agree?

You related to my wife?

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy:

quote:

If you don't want insults aimed at you, don't use them yourself, just stick with the threads and the things you think are or aren't right.

If you don't want insults aimed at you, don't use them yourself, just stick with the threads and the things you think are or aren't right.

listen to you.lol..re check the thread where you believe i deserved a comment like that? you &%$#@

Which one are you talking about? I don't believe I said anything about you, but refresh my memory. I'm very sure I didn't make an insulting comment about anyone initially.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CoachB25:
First, THIS IS NOT A FLAMING BOARD. CLEAN IT UP!


Coach,

I have tried to keep my posts to topic, but there are folks on this board who feel it is their duty to try and belittle anyone that does not agree with their THEORIES on hitting. That being said, I have for the most part responded to anything of substance even when it was mixed in with insults and for the most part Chameleon has at least responded with his thoughts on the swing. However, Deemax contributes nothing but negative remarks and that I will not take! I don't believe there is anything in your response to Chameleon that I disagree with, but even if I did, you stated your beliefs and did it with class, so I respect your opinion. I do not respect some other folks'.

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but if you teach someone to swing with that much back to front movement you are all fools!

Micmeister, you said this, not someone else!!

I hardly think Chameleon and Deemax are fools......Now, me, well maybe so!!

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Deemax contributes nothing but negative remarks

Not so....And, if you would make the effort to listen to Deemax, you would know this is not so........

So does anybody have any suggestions re how to help my freshman approach the outside pitch?

Chameleon the more I look the more I see that barrel action on tv etc. Clips are very small; what exactly is happening that you wish to point out? ie what is "special" about this barrel action?

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So does anybody have any suggestions re how to help my freshman approach the outside pitch?

Do you have any clips of your son hitting?

Not recently. Will get some up. Taking a bit to get organized. We have moved part time into a house in the city for the kids' schooling, main home in small town still has most of our "stuff". Camera one of the things that didnt make the trip yet. Commute to work in yet another town so life is disorganized etc .
Is this thread:

earlier thread

what you are talking about?

Get one of these and figure out why he can't hit the pitch...
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/products/infiniTee/

Start with, how is he developing the swing plane?....With posture or with arm action and using posture to adjust?

Where is his axis?.....Inside front leg or inside back leg?....


This "Infini-Tee" will answer those questions for you....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

but if you teach someone to swing with that much back to front movement you are all fools!

Micmeister, you said this, not someone else!!

I hardly think Chameleon and Deemax are fools......Now, me, well maybe so!!

I didn't call them fools. I said if they teach someone to use that much front to back head movement (such as Aaron, Clemente, Thomas )they were fools and I am quite sure they DON'T teach that way. Notice I didn't say that they weren't successful hitting that way, nor did I say if you saw someone swinging that way you should change them (IF the were doing it successfully). As far as I'm concerned, if someone can stand on one foot blindfolded and can hit .300 in the Major Leagues, more power to them. But, I would not teach someone to hit that way JUST because that person could make it work.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Get one of these and figure out why he can't hit the pitch...
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/products/infiniTee/

Start with, how is he developing the swing plane?....With posture or with arm action and using posture to adjust?

Where is his axis?.....Inside front leg or inside back leg?....


This "Infini-Tee" will answer those questions for you....

Is this your product? I like what the person says in the intro to the product. Do you have a demo clip of someone using it? If he buys one, he still may need you to answer those questions though.

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:
Not recently. Will get some up. Taking a bit to get organized. We have moved part time into a house in the city for the kids' schooling, main home in small town still has most of our "stuff". Camera one of the things that didnt make the trip yet. Commute to work in yet another town so life is disorganized etc .
Is this thread:

earlier thread

what you are talking about?

Just me,

The answer to Deemax's question in that thread is for him to go to the baseball field and throw a bat with HIS swing from home plate toward second base and film his self doing it. He will see that his wrist does not roll over before he lets go of the bat and that will be well past contact point. Does it matter what his wrists do after that? This drill can be done throwing the bat at any point in the infield to see how your energy is being released. The probable cause of his hitters improving due to trying to roll their wrists over is that they weren't reaching full extension in the first place. It doesn't really matter what drill or method you use as long as you get the results you were looking for. I think BlueDog is the one that answers questions with other questions on here. I actually like this approach because it helps the hitter try to figure things out on their own. I have always taught this way because I won't always be there when they are in a game and have a problem.

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Do you have a demo clip of someone using it? If he buys one, he still may need you to answer those questions though.

This is Donnie's (Swingbuster's product)....I have one and use it regularly...

The purpose is to use your hitting theory and see the results.....Then, decide if you need to re-think something......

It is easy for any of us to argue with each other about hitting theory on here......

But, you can't argue with the results on the "Infinit-Tee"....

What do you have to do to hit the outside part of the plate pitch?....Is carrying the weight forward important?.....Is carrying the hands and arms forward important?...Is that part of your hitting theory?....If not, should you make it so?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

Do you have a demo clip of someone using it? If he buys one, he still may need you to answer those questions though.

This is Donnie's (Swingbuster's product)....I have one and use it regularly...

The purpose is to use your hitting theory and see the results.....Then, decide if you need to re-think something......

So, are the things that hold the ball rubber? Do they crank down kind of like a "C" clamp? Would he have a clip of someone using it? I like using tees to work with my students, but they are limiting in a way.

The things are rubber and swivel apart very easily....This product is quite unlimiting with a good swing....And, quite limiting with a bad swing.....That is why it is so useful....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
It is easy for any of us to argue with each other about hitting theory on here......

But, you can't argue with the results on the "Infinit-Tee"....

What do you have to do to hit the outside part of the plate pitch?....Is carrying the weight forward important?.....Is carrying the hands and arms forward important?...Is that part of your hitting theory?....If not, should you make it so?

Yes, to all of these questions. I believe you have to transfer your bodyweight from backside to frontside, but I believe there is an optimal way to do it and that is what I try to teach. I like John Cohen's drills that teach rotational mechanics but to channel your momentum or energy in a direct line through the ball. Like I've said on here before, the more momentum you have getting to the ball will make the ball go faster off of the bat, but IMO the more your eyes/head moves after you start to the ball with your hands the harder it will be to time the pitch or to hit it on the sweet spot. Notice I didn't say it was impossible, just more difficult.

I try to incorporate mathematics into my theory and I think that was what Ted Williams figured out. That is why like it said in the promo for the Infinit-Tee, "most MLB hitters have a slight upswing."

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
The things are rubber and swivel apart very easily....This product is quite unlimiting with a good swing....And, quite limiting with a bad swing.....That is why it is so useful....

So, are you saying that the hitter will be able to figure out what he's doing on his own if he uses this product or will it just make it obvious that he is doing SOMETHING wrong?

That depends on his IQ.

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Originally posted by Chameleon:
That depends on his IQ.

Wouldn't it depend on his knowledge of his swing? Figure Einstein could hit the sinker?

Does the ball sink off the InfiniTEE?

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Originally posted by Chameleon:
Does the ball sink off the InfiniTEE?

An 8 year old can hit off of a tee. Do you think they could hit Maddox???

mic

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I'm sorry you're not capable of using the word YOU'RE instead of YOUR, do you know how silly that makes you look???

Im working hard to become a better speller. I hate looking silly... I will not call out anyone for thier spelling knowing how difficult our language can be.

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An 8 year old can hit off of a tee. Do you think they could hit Maddox???

Maybe...Garry Maddox is about 57 or 58 years old...

You've got the bob and weave down.

You go from "can a hitter figure out what he's doing wrong using the InfiniTEE"...to..."can Einstein hit the sinker"...to..."can an 8 yr old hit Maddux".

Add the rope a dope and you're a boxer.

I recommend you study some hitting video.

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Originally posted by Chameleon:
You've got the bob and weave down.

You go from "can a hitter figure out what he's doing wrong using the InfiniTEE"...to..."can Einstein hit the sinker"...to..."can an 8 yr old hit Maddux".

Add the rope a dope and you're a boxer.

I recommend you study some hitting video.

Dude, you were the one who made the "IQ" quote. Was there an intelligent point to that comment???

I have been studying hitting video since I was about 25 years old and we come to different conclussions. My students hit the ball very well. I could really care less what you think of my hitting theory.

Maddox - Maddux

Oops! You got me Deemax! It's a shame you couldn't respond to the thread in an intelligent manner.

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It's a shame you couldn't respond to the thread in an intelligent manner.

Your right, maybe I should follow your lead with intelligent posts. You have been right on track the whole time and I continue to lead you astray. Please continue to inform the readers of this thread how Aaron, Ruth, Clemente, Mays, Ripken, Thomas, and 90%ish of the other hall of famers are moving forward to much again. I will refrain from interupting your brilliant teachings and unarguable truths about hitting any further, because you have so many facts to back up your hogwash uneducated guess theory.

You haven't studied enough.

Swing a bat along with it.

Is the infiniTEE small enough for 7-10 year olds to use?

nevermind, I read the description...

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Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

It's a shame you couldn't respond to the thread in an intelligent manner.

Your right, maybe I should follow your lead with intelligent posts. You have been right on track the whole time and I continue to lead you astray. Please continue to inform the readers of this thread how Aaron, Ruth, Clemente, Mays, Ripken, Thomas, and 90%ish of the other hall of famers are moving forward to much again. I will refrain from interupting your brilliant teachings and unarguable truths about hitting any further, because you have so many facts to back up your hogwash uneducated guess theory.

You don't lead anyone anywhere! Do you have your hitting theory written down somewhere? Put it on here so it can be evaluated. Again, put the list of Major or Minor League hitters you have taught to hit like the names you've listed above. You and Chameleon are like Politicians, you can only say that someone elses ideas are wrong, but you never give your COMPLETE plan or theory of how to do things the right way.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
You haven't studied enough.

Swing a bat along with it.

I hit .515 as a Senior in High School with 12 home runs. I can swing a bat. Although, that was in 1976.