need opinions please on this offer

Welcome to High School Baseball Web Mom!

You started out right by coming here, as you already know.

You will receive many various answers to this wonderful dilemma that your son is in. So here is mine for what it's worth.

First off: Sit back and take a deep breath! exhale slowly...

My son's SAT scores were not exactly the best either so he took the ACT and did quite well on it. You may consider having him take it the next time it's offered. Some kids seem to score better on it than the SAT's. Be sure to look at the schools that are looking at your son to be sure they do take ACT scores. Most do.

You and/or your son shouldn't look at redshirting as a bad thing. Actually, it can be a very good thing for him. During that redshirt year it allows him to practice with the team, build friendships, develop relationships with the coaches, etc. while maturing more as a young man. They may see that he needs to get a year of school under his belt so he will be academically ready to play his sophomore year. Also, he may need some physical maturing, i.e. strength, speed, etc. They obviously see something in your son to know that a year of redshirting will develop him into a player ready to perform and produce the next.

Asking a 18yr old who has been use to starting to plan on sitting a year is much easier said than done. If this is the school he wants to attend deep down inside, have him step back for a moment and look at the bigger picture.

You haven't really made it clear which of these schools he wants to attend or if it even matters. The other scenarios that come into play are what does he want to major in and does that particular school offer that program, has he visited each school and liked/disliked certain things above the others, are the girls cuter at one more than the others, are any friends going to one/both...???

I truly believe that if this coach who wants to redshirt him a year to get him ready for playing after that promises you certain things, he seems to me like a quality coach and will stick to his word.

Hope some of this jibberish helps just a little.

Good luck.

Welcome RHP90!

If you are just now on the verge of a breakdown, you are ahead of the game. Most of us have gone over much earlier. Congrats on holding it together this long!

There are many, many, much more qualified poster's here, so their answers may be more helpful and definitive. I can only pass on some questions that I would ask if our family were facing the same situation.

1) I would probably want to know whether the first choice school's coach regularly redshirts players and how he has dealt with them in the past.

2) Does he have record of "promising" money for future years, if so, has he followed through.

3) Can your family handle costs if, for some reason, the money isn't there next year (Coach takes another job, there are freshmen or transfers that beat your player out of the position).

4) How do you think your player will handle being redshirted.

5) MOST importantly, is school choice #1 a school that he would be happy with if he is not able to baseball there for some reason?

I guess that I would try to think of the variables that might come into play over the nest year to see if that gives you a better idea of how you view these various possibilities.

Best wishes to you and your player. It sounds as if he has some nice options. We look forward to hearing how he AND you are doing.

thanks for your responses. All your suggestions and thoughts are very knowledgable. Besides the ability and good fortune he has in his pitching, he is very mature on and off the field. All the coaches that have met with him have stated this.
They see right away his poise, character, sportsmanship, and ability. He seemed to really hit it off with the coach at the school that is in question at the moment. His second choice school, is also a wonderful school. He seems to be impressed with the athletic facilities at the first and second school the most, along with their records. The third school is smaller, and not ranked as high as the other two. And yes, they all
have his major that he is interested in. These three schools all play against eachother, and it has been stated by choice number 1 school, that they don't want to see him pitch against them (with a chuckle). His biggest decision is now, does he sit out a year, even though he will practice and develop relationships with the team and coach, or does he go to his second or third choice, and be able to play. All three coaches have stated that he is the "real thing" ( not my words, but theirs...lol, even though I agree.."winking") and that he is major leage material ( again..not my words) And the answer to the last question, is yes, fortunately we have his tuition covered if there are false promises made.
thanks again for your interest and advice!!

One thing people keep forgetting with regard to a freshman redshirt year is the academic plus--not only does it allow the boy to adjust academically to his new regimen but it gets 30 plus credits out of the way which makes the remaining 4 years easier academically and time wise. My son did it at a major Division I program and it allowed him to take the miniumum 12 credits required in his spring semester while taking 16 to 18 credits in the fall dutring the final 4 years

It worked well for him

A different perspective...

I don't know of a single reputable coach that promises starting positions. This should be a huge red flag.

To me, a promise of future scholarship is empty and worthless.

Your sons #1 school sounds very suspect.

With the new transfer rules in effect for your son, redshirting is a real gamble and I would advise against it. If he were to transfer out, or get hurt at anytime during his collegiate carrer, he'd lose a year of eligibility and playing time. Be very cautious before you give away that kind of future for nothing to a coach who may be walking you down a garden path. He is asking you to give away a year of eligibility and offering nothing concrete in return.

My advice is to go where they want him most, and the fit is good. Obviously school #1 doesn't fit those criteria.

Best of luck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rhpitcher90:

The problem: his first choice school wants to redshirt him the first year, and has promised him a starting position and big $$ his sophmore year.


If I am understanding this correctly they are asking him to come to school the first year on your dime and then giving him a starting position AND money his sophmore year. This is not generally how it works, redshirt or not, you get your scholarship the day you set foot on campus or you are considered a walk on. And I am not sure how a coach can promise a starting position to anyone two years from now.

If my understanding is correct your son has a choice. If he wants to go to school AND play baseball look to his other offers, if he is more interested in academics and possibly NOT getting what's promised, then go to school choice #1.

I am sorry but IMO, if the coaches see him as the "real" deal with MLB material they offer him an opportunity to play asap and move him out in 3 years.

TO TPM

It does work that way every now and then

Sorry but you do not always have the answers not do I but this time you are wrong

It sounds to me like this is the tailor made junior college situation. Your son should consider going to a junior college where he can play right away, while having a less strenuous academic load. If he performs well on the field and in the classroom he could transfer to the school of his choice after one year. It doesn't make sense to me why someone would want to pay their own way and redshirt for a year, when the opportunity would almost certainly exist to go to a junior college (likely for free) and play right away.

There is nothing wrong with a redshirt year. But I wouldn't knowingly enter a situation where that was the only option. Give junior college baseball a long hard look. It may turn out to be his best option.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TO TPM

Sorry but you do not always have the answers not do I but this time you are wrong

Did you read what was written? Unless it's wrong the player gets NOTHING but some coaches word he will play in 2 years and get some $$. Would you advise someone to take that opportunity if the player wants to PLAY?


I gave my opinion, as asked to do based on the information given. In a D1, no scholarship means you are a walk on, but can be part of the roster come spring, redshirts included. If another divsion that does not give out athletic scholarships, than the player should go where he can play and receive some money with an opportunity MAYBE to transfer later on. JC is a better option, IMO. Why didn't the coach suggest that?

Coaches recruit players based on their ability to help the team as much as they can and as quickly as they can especially with the 35 limit roster. How does limited practice with the team for a year make you better? How can a coach look 2 years down the road, he may not even be there in 2 years, now what are you going to do? How can a coach tell a player he's pro material and offer him a redshirt? That inhibits the players chance to develop.

Please state where I am wrong?

This is a different day and age in recruiting. Some programs don't even want a player to redshirt anymore unless it's a medical need (which actually is not considered a redshirt). Money is too tight, unless this is a new recruiting tactic, I would consider it "tacky". How amny other players has he offered this same. Not that there is anything wrong with a redshirt year, but that's usually determined later on, agree or not?


That's my opinion and I AM NOT apologizing.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
This is not generally how it works...

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
It does work that way every now and then...

She said the same thing.

BTW,
rhpitcher90 stated posted a few months ago the situation.

Where was that? I ususally go back and look at prior posts, none seem to be found and this question was their first.

only thing i want to say is I am hearing from some players who are going D1 next year and they are also being told no money. They have given the bulk of their money to pitchers and rest is tied up with the others. I do believe this recruited walk on could be the way things are going with the new rules. two of the boys i know were both told there would be money next year.Dont know enough to give opinion. But one of the schools is very expensive and if my son was asked to do the same there he would as he is be going to a JC.

Fan,
That may very well be the case AND will be the case of the future and that is the player's choice. Also if a parent indicates they are willing to pay, then why does a coach need to give them anything?

Were they promised a spot on the roster regardless of scholarship or not? Were they asked to redshirt? That's teh difference.

Obviously this player has to redshirt due to academics, it must be a tough school with high standards. That doesn't mean that the player will be eligible the following year.

As I said earlier, if it's about baseball, go where you can play, if it's about academics and the player doesn't mind sitting a year, that's fine it's a choice. The player needs to decide what is the best fit all around, not just in one area.

Recruting is about honesty, for both parties. If the coach feels that this player may be of value later on but academics aren't in order, and promising a spot as a sophmore, then why not suggest the player take the JUCO route first. Asking a player to give up one year immediately when one really doesn't know what the future holds makes no sense to me.

so much valuable info, thanks again for you support.
My earlier post was under "acceptance letter brings disappointment"...I could not remember my user name or password, so had to re-create a new account. It had to be back in December when I first posted, and I got a ton of replies.
And just for the record, I never stated to the coach that we would be able to cover his tuition.
I'm actually going to have my son read all these replies, so he has a better understanding of what he is facing. I have also placed some calls into his HS coaches and pitching coaches to slso ask their advice. Will let you know their thoughts.
Thanks again

This is the preceeding thread.Acceptance brings disapointment

If I understand the new rules correctly, in order for a player to practice (take part in countable athletic activity) with the team during the spring (the championship segment), he needs to be on the 35 man roster. This rule will take effect in Aug 2008. So I would certainly want to ask the coach if he plans to put the player on the 35 man roster, so that he can really practice eith the team. Also the player should recognize that he will use a year of eligibility during his freshman year, and if he desires to transfer to another D1 (and perhaps D2) school for his sophomore year, he won't be eligible to compete that year either.

It seems to me that the redshirt scenario is quite risky from a baseball point of view. The player might still not meet the higher academic standards for the sophomore year, or the coach may leave the school.

Im just stating what is happening to kids I know. They both have roster spots. Dont want to go into details becuase its private within their own families. Im just making the statement that with the new rule changes you are going to see more recruited walk ons. I personally agree with you in that if my son wasnt going to play and not get any money and I had to fork out a lot of money i would not do it.(unless it was a school of his dreams and he wanted to go there academically above and beyongd anywhere else.
Both players im talking about are fine academically.
Unfortunately a lot of 17 yo do not necessarily have their priorities put together as you talk about. many make their decisions on baseball alone and sometimes it works and someimes it doesnt.
My own son liked the schools recruiting him as far as baseball but did not like the schools themselves, thet were over 30,000 a year and he didnt feel it was worth it just for baseball, even though they were a great academic school.It wasnt the right fit for him if baseball fell through.

everyones situation is so different thats why there is not a right or wrong here, each family has to weigh it all out and see what works for them personally. all we are doing is giving our opinions advice based on what we all have experienced.

3fingeredglove,
Thanks for the link.

Fan,
The imformation you provided was a good.

So are we to assume this is a D2 school with 9 scholarships to give out?

I am under the impression there is no roster limit on D2, so how many others might have been told they will be redshirted a year and given scholarship money? What is their roster size? This is a walk on situation the way I see it, no guarantees. Can you be considered a redshirt without a scholarship? How many do they normally redshirted? How many show up in the fall and how many don't make the roster?

As TPM had mentioned, be careful of promises a coach makes, will he even be around? I hear a lot of stories of coaches making promises to very talented players only to have them go away once they hit campus.

What are the specific dollars he will get his sophomore year (I also agree with TPM that he should get something his freshman year as well), and the big item, what support does the school give to the student-athletes and will he be able to get it if he is not on the team.

The last question, if he had such a low SAT, how will he do at that school academically?

Many issues: redshirt, dollars, coaches, SAT, first choice, starter, promises, ranking, and the list goes on.

Step #1:
Put all the issues on the backburner and imagine baseball is not in the picture and it becomes a student decision. Is there a clear cut favorite where Junior would have the best college experience, academically and socially? Sometimes Baseball is not the the deciding factor.

Step #2:
What does the gut say?

quote:

Posted February 27, 2008 02:33 PM Hide Post
This is the preceeding thread.Acceptance brings disapointment

If I understand the new rules correctly, in order for a player to practice (take part in countable athletic activity) with the team during the spring (the championship segment), he needs to be on the 35 man roster. This rule will take effect in Aug 2008. So I would certainly want to ask the coach if he plans to put the player on the 35 man roster, so that he can really practice eith the team. Also the player should recognize that he will use a year of eligibility during his freshman year, and if he desires to transfer to another D1 (and perhaps D2) school for his sophomore year, he won't be eligible to compete that year either.

sorry for my ignorance, but I am new to this whole recruiting process. What exactly do you mean that he would lose a year of eligibility? I would like to bring that point up with the coach when I speak to him. Also, if he will be practicing with team with no playing time, you feel he should be on the roster?? I'm getting the feeling that this coach just wants him in his back pocket

That information was given for D1 schools regarding transfer.

D1 coaches use redshirt for various reasons, usually for health and because the player is not physically able to compete, he brought in too many players, but your situation is academic.

I am not really understanding how a player is considered a redshirt if he is not receiving any scholarship dollars but this is D2. Where are our D2 experts? A player receiving nothing and sitting out and not on the spring roster sounds like greyshirt to me, a practice in some divisions and JUCOs. I do know it is not allowed in D1 or D3, but not sure of D2.

This is what you need to do, you need to call the coach and find out exactly what he means by your son redshirting. Does he become part of the fall AND spring roster? And is this only because he doesn't meet the academic criteria? Usually someone not meeting academic criteria is not anything, he's off teh team but you have to understand the schools playing/academic criteria for freshman.
Then you and your son have to realize the implications of redshirt, greyshirt. As a sophmore, your son will have to compete with incoming freshman who have been playing the game (not just practicing) for a year.

I am not sure if I understand this, if someone wants to really play college athletics and not academically eligible to play AT THAT particular school why would they attend? If athletics doesn't mean much, then I can understand.

The boy seems to qualify for Division 2 according to the Clearinghouse--- thus the he is academically eligible

As a frosh he can be redshirted for various reasons depending on how the coach approaches it

thanks all for some very good information...will let you all know the outcome.

rhpitcher90,

You did clearly state in the original thread that the question involves a D2 school, but I somehow got D1 in mind. The "new rules" that I referred to (regarding 35 man roster, losing a year of eligibility, etc.) only apply to D1 schools, as TPM has already said.

Sorry about muddying the issue.

Anyone can qualify for clearinghouse purposes, but not a specific schools academic admissions.

My son qualified for D1, but most likely would never have met some schools who were recruiting him admissions due to his SAT scores.

For example, here in a florida D1 state school you have to have a certain SAT to be accepted. I know two players who had to attend a summer school course at the university to be eligible for fall due to low math SAT scores.

The clearinghouse just means you have taken the required courses to qualify to play for a division not for admissions.

The situation is that the player doesn't meet the SAT cirteria, which means they will accept him but must meet a certain standard for a year to play.

quote:

Originally posted by rhpitcher90:
I'm getting the feeling that this coach just wants him in his back pocket

RZ had great advice when he said to trust your gut...and now you know the answer, is the head listening to the gut?

TPM

I think all we "dummies" know that regarding the Clearinghouse----the question has to do with redshirting the boy and how the school goes about it if they want to---it is possible that he can sit out and not redshirt which can impact his years of playing eligibility

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

I think all we "dummies" know that regarding the Clearinghouse----the question has to do with redshirting the boy and how the school goes about it if they want to---it is possible that he can sit out and not redshirt which can impact his years of playing eligibility

Go back and read the facts, has nothing to do with the clearinghouse.

First thread, because of SAT scores he can't play at a private D2 but will be accepted into the general studies and can WORK OUT with the team for a year then gets a promised start and big schollie dollars (can they guarantee that). BTW, work out and practice can count in transfer rules against your eligibility.


The player is a RHP, 6'5" hits low 90's, does he need to be doing nothing but working out and practice for a year, IF he really wants to play?

My gut is telling me that if this kid is being recruited by D2 and he is a RHP throwing in the low 90's (which are a dime a dozen, and thats not an attack on anyone TR) that this kid should seriously consider a good JC. Look at it this way, education and training will more than likely be at NO COST, he has a chance of getting better and throwing harder and after one year is still eligible to be drafted. If he gets better and turns some heads the D1's will be calling.
Whats not to like about that scenario? JMO

I think you need to keep in mind that promises for future years are just that - and not commitments.

SEEDTHROWER


When did RHP's throwing in the low 90's become as you term it, a dime a dozen?

Are you serious with that question TR?
Now I know you have a team that goes down to Jupiter every year. Have you ever looked at the radar guns down there? Are most of the pitchers throwing down there right or left handed? My son has competed on a couple of high quality summer and fall teams before he started college this past fall. He was also at the PG National event in Arkansas and plenty of showcases. My sons HS teammate who also played on your team in Jupiter a year ago throws in the low 90's and was drafted by the Marlins in June. So it is safe to say I have seen plenty of quality pitchers the past few years. Most of those pitchers are right handed as is more than 50% of the world. So when I see MANY right handed pitchers throwing in the low 90's, and have had a couple scouts and college pitching coaches talk about the number of pitchers they see are in the low 90's and many of them, I think that a dime a dozen is appropriate terminology.
Matter of fact I use that terminology because that is the same phrase that a D1 college coach used with me.

Now I am no scholar by any stretch of the imagination. But knowing what scouts are most focused on when they look at a pitcher, I guess that is why they all carry radar guns? I bet you would have to search for a long time to find a right handed pitcher that wasn't hitting at least 90 in the minors. Now I know there are exceptions to the rule, but if a right hander isn't hitting at least 90 how seriously are the scouts looking at that guy?

SEEDTHROWER


I am very serious-----the number of pitchers in the 90's that you may see in Jupiter are just a very small percentage of pitchers at the HS level in this country---they are by no means a dime a dozen

TPM

I have read the facts but I keep stumbling on the fact that you have all the answers---I will defer to you from now on and take notes

As usual, a pyssing match with TR. I have watched you do this so many times on other subjects on this site it is like talking with a two year old. I watched you do the same exact thing in the texas forum. Lose the New England attitude and grow up a little.

When a professional tells me that righties throwing in the low 90's are a dime a dozen I will listen to him 100% of the time over you any day of the week.

Again, go to the rosters of these pro teams and show me righties that are throwing under 90. PG probably at one time or another has evaluated these pitchers(not every one, but most, and see what they have to say about their velocities) How many right handed pitchers are there playing pro ball? My guess is lots.

No kidding the amount of pitchers at Jupiter is a small percentage of the HS pitchers, tell me something I don't already know. All HS pitchers aren't pro prospects or college material. You know that every pitcher in America hitting 90 doesn't show up at Jupiter, right? Why is it then that if a righty isn't touching 90 on the gun that scouts aren't looking at him?

Maybe you should start defering to parents that have a kid playing pro ball, you might learn something.

Your attitude and condescending remarks have grown old over your 12,000 + posts. You have no where near all the answers. That is plainly obvious to may here.

SEEDTHROWER

You can believe what you want ---I am just telling you that "dime a dozen" is a very broad term for a select number of arms in the high schools of this country

You can listen to your scout and you can use the math which you desire to arrive at your statement--I am just telling you that I do not agree with your assessment and think many others feel the same


AS for Jupiter do you not think that the majority of 90 MPH arms are there ?---would they not want to be on the biggest stage of the year for HS players.

As usual , as you term it , a pyssing contest---is this perhaps you and others cannot accept that someone else thinks differently than you and may be right--I am expressing what I believe to be true and I say you need to do more research on your end---one professional spoken to does make a conclusion

It could be that I see more players than you and speak with more professionals, college and pro, than you do--just perhaps--

Whatever you are entitled to your belief

By the way I am a NYer who just happens to being living in New England for the past 11 years---and you don't have an attitude ?

As for you asking me to grow up I will just take that as a sign of your mindset

SEEDTHROWER


So as to help you and I won't send you the bill

I have taken the pains to call a number of "professionls" I know in various regions of the country , not just my region---their answer was a very sound "WHAT!!!!"---they are still looking for 90 plus pitchers in their region and to say they are " a dime a dozen" is absolutely ludicrous


Just trying to help you right your ship

Got to agree with TR on this one. Low 90s RHP's are not a dime a dozen. If that is their max and they are not very projectable they might not be big time pro prospects but if they have any pitching ability at all and even barely adequate grades they are definitely D1 material at some level. In fact, I've heard that the low 90s RHPs who aren't early round material are exactly what many top D1s are hoping to get.

I know of several RHP who max out at 90 or less who have signed D1.

and so it begins.... the offers are coming in.
The original school in question is still pursuing my son. Their offer is still on the table. Nice $$, but same circumstances. School two and three have been to 1 scrimmage, but son could not pitch
because he had pitched two days earlier. Coaches are in close contact with son's cell, my cell, and husbands cell, and also email. The weather here in NY is not cooperating though, todays's scrimmage cancelled. Disappointed because they were supposed to be there, so now we wait until Saturday..hopefully the weather will be good.

Will post outcome when this game is finally over.
Good luck to everyone, and I'll be happy when this negotiating is over!!

Happy Easter from New York

rhpitcher90, best wishes as everything plays out!