Needing 8U Player

Really? Do kids need to start pitching at 7?!?

8U/7U should be in basic basball training not tournaments

What do you suggest we do with 8U? Coach pitch is not good mechanics for hitting. The level of rec ball at that age is terrible. There are only about 2 kids per team that can catch and hit. We put together some of the better kids within a 2 hour area and are working 2 days a week on fundamentals. Would love to hear you guys, expert, opinion.

8u around here is machine pitch.

Jeff,

I've coached in a 1200 kid program since my son was 7 years old. Our 7/8 yo "coach pitch" division last spring had 280 players. Of these, about 50 were allowed to play in a "high" league of four teams (based on tryouts). The remainder played in a "low" league of about 20 teams. Eight years ago when my son was that age, I had the choice to coach a "high" team (filled with stronger kids and parents who thought their kid was a future MLB player) or a "low" team where the kids were mostly just average. I chose the "low" level because I didn't want to push my son too hard when he was so young; I wanted him to have fun while he learned the game. That said, I wanted the opportunity to teach the weaker kids how to play the game.

Today, when I look around at the players of that class who still play, very few are those seven and eight year old superstars. Most of the kids on my current select team played in the "low" league back then. They grew bigger and stronger in middle school and left many of the others behind.

If I were you, I'd focus on my son having fun and learning the game. Show your love of the game by teaching those kids who you admit cannot catch or hit. Keep it local. You might find that those kids with no skills today turn out to be the best high school players. They are only waiting for you to show them the way.

Leaving aside concerns about physical development and arm injuries (for which I'm not an expert but age 7 would worry me):

Kid pitch at ages 7 and 8 is mostly walks, hit batters and strikeouts. BORING. Boring for the parents, boring for the players, boring for the coaches. A great way to kill all interest in the game among our nation's youth if you ask me.

Give me coach pitch or machine pitch at that age level any day. More fielding opportunities (though many are booted, the kids improve rapidly when the ball is actually put in play), and the hitters mostly gain confidence. They can develop good swing mechanics when they get older. You really want to turn your 7-year-old over to BlueDog?

Tee ball: You learn which hand gets the glove and which one you throw with. The ball sits still when you are trying to hit it. If you do hit the ball, go to the white sack, then turn left.

Coach pitch: Only a slight step up, a bit more defense, ball is hit further more frequently, the ball is a bit harder to hit because now it's moving. But the pitcher is trying to let you hit it, not trying to get you out, so it's still pretty easy and fun for kids who are at an age where their attention spans are short.

Kid pitch: The pitcher is trying to get you out. But he also may hit you, even if it is only an accident. It's hard enough for 9's to overcome the fear that can cause. If you start at age 7, IMHO you can ruin a player for baseball at a very young age.

In my experience very few 9's could really pitch consistently. I did see a few travel teams spring up at that age to round those kids up and take 'em on the road, and whatever other things folks want to cringe over, they had a load of fun playing baseball, and I'm all for that.

But starting kids pitching at age 7 to me is WAY too early.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
What do you suggest we do with 8U? Coach pitch is not good mechanics for hitting. The level of rec ball at that age is terrible. There are only about 2 kids per team that can catch and hit. We put together some of the better kids within a 2 hour area and are working 2 days a week on fundamentals. Would love to hear you guys, expert, opinion.

So...some kids are travelling 2 hours twice per week to work out at age? You have 7U kids pitching?

I think 9U is about as early as I would start them, IMO.

Send them outside to climb a tree, catch a frog or chase the neighbor's cat. Why is there an obsession to take kids and make them grow up. Take that two hours and play kick the can it will be much more productive.

But I'm just an old fool.

I was wondering if people would editorialize on this thread. I didn't want to be the first. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by 7U kid pitch tournament ball. All that matters at this age is having fun, learning some basics and building a passion for the game. When I was commissioner of the 7/8 league I told parents not to get all torqued up about the games. I said we were more likely to create baseball fans than high school baseball players and we need an environment to learn to love the game. Some parents were upset by my perspective. From when my son was seven in 7/8's, he's the only seven year old out of about 120 kids still playing baseball as of freshman year in high school. The only thing to be accomplished with 7U kid pitch is burning out arms by 12U.

I agree that the earliest kid pitch age should be 9. Even at 9 very few kids can get the ball over the plate for the batters to hit. I think machine pitch might be the best. The pitches are more consistent than coach pitch and have less of an arc.
The kids don't have to be afraid that the pitch will be wild and hit them. This allows them to be comfortable in the batters box and get more bats on the ball which means having more fun.
Starting travel ball at the ripe old age of 9 is probably the correct age.
A 7yo is more interested in the snacks after the game than who they are playing. I bet very few that age can even catch a ball let alone throw a pitch that is even close to hittable.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
What do you suggest we do with 8U? Coach pitch is not good mechanics for hitting. The level of rec ball at that age is terrible. There are only about 2 kids per team that can catch and hit. We put together some of the better kids within a 2 hour area and are working 2 days a week on fundamentals. Would love to hear you guys, expert, opinion.

Jeff,
In nearly 40 years of baseball 25 years or so of coaching I find this to be the most damaging thing to the game. I keep asking this on sites like this - show me one expert who says TB before big field is good for the kids. All the clinicians I have at our clinics agree it is not. 2-hours for a 7-y/o to play ball? Let him smack a ball around in the back yard with dad. developing a shared love for the game with dad/mom is the lesson he should be leaning right now. Stay away from TB until the big field.
Jake

I understand and appreciate all your CONCERNS. But we are not talking about the average kid. My 7 year old played 8U machine pitch last year and batted 1.000. He never got out. Stole 87 bases and got thrown out 1 time. All of this as a 6 year old. He can stand at 46 feet and throw 8/10 pitches for a strike. He has been throwing and catching a baseball since he was 2. He is a switch hitter.
I also understand he is not the average player. He has 17 and 15 year old brothers. One lefty, one righty, thus the switch hitting. His 15 year old brother, throws the ball at 86 MPH as a freshman, lefty.
Most of the players on our team fit this description. They are players that would become frustrated in machine pitch, much less the coaches that can not get the ball over the plate.
He practices on his own about 2 hours a day throwing with someone, mostly the high school team his brothers play on.
Our league for machine pitch had 6 teams and it was terrible. I understand this is not for everyone. But it is for some. We have an 8 year old that is huge and can bring it. We are putting together a team of players and families that want something more.
My middle son is on one of these teams that started when they were 9. They will all make their varsity teams as freshmen and are all still playing. It does work to put the best together and let them develop each other.

For the ones who say I should teach it. I DO. We do camps each year twice a year and teach the basics to the lower level kids. But I will not put my child through playing with others who will not even get behind a ball or are scared of it. He loves this game and wants to play at the highest level. Not from me, but from him.
I have never had to make any of my sons play baseball, football, or basketball. They love it and that is what they want to do.

quote:

Originally posted by JakeP:

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
What do you suggest we do with 8U? Coach pitch is not good mechanics for hitting. The level of rec ball at that age is terrible. There are only about 2 kids per team that can catch and hit. We put together some of the better kids within a 2 hour area and are working 2 days a week on fundamentals. Would love to hear you guys, expert, opinion.

Jeff,
In nearly 40 years of baseball 25 years or so of coaching I find this to be the most damaging thing to the game. I keep asking this on sites like this - show me one expert who says TB before big field is good for the kids. All the clinicians I have at our clinics agree it is not. 2-hours for a 7-y/o to play ball? Let him smack a ball around in the back yard with dad. developing a shared love for the game with dad/mom is the lesson he should be leaning right now. Stay away from TB until the big field.
Jake

Define expert. I can find you a lot of dads who have seen their sons succeed because of travel ball. It is not for everyone, but it is for some. I get tickled at the LLWS. Those players could not think about competing at the Travel Ball level. It has been proven because the ones who have won from the US do not compete at the Major level.

I think that we are all quick to judge what is right and what is wrong for other people's children. We all want to quote the "professionals" because their opinion for some reason seems to hold a little more weight. You can take practically every post from threads like this one and copy it in to the next thread about TB, pitching, etc.
I'm not placing my opinion on this thread, but I can understand the way that Jeff feels about rec ball and the talent/ability that its players possess. My son too was head and shoulders above what our local rec league put out there and he became somewhat uninterested due to there being no challenge for him at that age. Things have since leveled out and he plays TB at the highest level possible.
Jeff, just remember that these are very young boys and their bodies are yet to be molded. Don't be the one to put their future baseball opportunities in jeopardy. I'm sure you'll make the right decisions.

I understand the body deal as good as anyone. My middle son started playing on 10U travel teams at age 8. He pitched and played right with the others. Most could not believe he was only 8. We watched his pitch count as we will with all of these boys. My older two have played travel ball since 8U and have never had arm or shoulder problems. We are not talking dads coaching that know nothing. We have coaches that have taken teams to the elite 24 and many world series coaching.

This thread was started to find another player like what we already have. It was not started as a debate of travel ball versus rec ball.

I have been down this road before and made the choice that was right for my children. We have tried the rec ball stuff and it does not work for mine, not for yours or your neighbors.

You can argue all you want. My son wants to play any kind of ball he can. Not play in trees or kick cans. When birthdays and Christmas comes, he wants gloves, balls, helmets, etc.

We know this is not for everyone, that is why we prefaced it with needing players and parents who want travel ball.

quote:

My 7 year old played 8U machine pitch last year and batted 1.000. He never got out. Stole 87 bases and got thrown out 1 time. All of this as a 6 year old.

You've just described half the site's poster's kids at age seven.

quote:

We have an 8 year old that is huge and can bring it.

Throws from the rubber to the plate on a line. Once again just like half the site's poster's kids at age seven.

quote:

I can find you a lot of dads who have seen their sons succeed because of travel ball.

Success on the kiddie size fields doesn't mean diddly (to borrow from Jim Mora).

quote:

I get tickled at the LLWS. Those players could not think about competing at the Travel Ball level.

Just another travel dad full of himself over his kid. LL has boundaries. Go figure the teams aren't as good as travel teams! My son's 12U travel team (played around the LL schedule) would have trashed his LL all-star team that was section runnerup to a team that went to Williamsport. But the kids still had a great time during all-stars.

quote:

When birthdays and Christmas comes, he wants gloves, balls, helmets, etc.

This is so unique it's most kids who play sports and enjoy them.

RJM,
Sounds like you have a problem with travel ball or this site or life in general. We did not come on here starting a fight. Ya'll opened that can of worms. I've been through this twice and know what is best for MY kid, not yours, your neighbors or "half the kids on this site."

Success on the little fields does not mean success on the big fields but love of the game and teaching fundamentals does. I know all of these kids won't make it. But I have to do what is best for MY kid.

Little League is a joke. It glamourizes kids that can't make it in the big world of travel ball. The elite 24 would kill the LLWS. And most of those kids do make it to high school. That is all we can push for. After that is a cherry on top.

Take a deep breath, breathe in, breathe out, and let it go.

quote:

I get tickled at the LLWS. Those players could not think about competing at the Travel Ball level.

Jeff,
You stated this. So, even though you didn't open the can, you are a part of this. Given what you have said, I applaud your efforts in striving to do what is best for your kids. But I want to comment on this quote. I'm a part of a program that is sanctioned by LL. LL merely gives kids and adults a chance to build a baseball program, as you are trying to do. But to say LL is a joke, is a joke in itself. Our LL program has produced quite a few collegiate players with a few D1 players (mixed in). Some of them did play travel, but all of them played at the majors level in our LL program. Please don't generalize LL for lack of talent. If there are a few kids in your area who are as good as you say, why not let them play up and stay local?

Because LL will not let them play up. If you are doing this you are breaking LL's rules. I would do this in a heartbeat. My son would play in minor league, but LL won't allow this.

I'm not saying LL is a joke. I'm responding to the idea that was suggested that LL is the best opportunity. LL is a recreation program. Travel ball is for the more competitive. But to say that LL could compete with Travel is a joke. My older sons played LL and travel so I would also agree. But now LL has changed their rules to keep players from doing both during the best times of the travel season during all-stars.

I apologize if I came across being anti-LL. That is not the case. But under the new system, LL is not for everyone.

Jeff,
If your kid wants to play then play. Many people say the kids of today are soft. They don't exercise or run around. All they do is sit and play video games. Travel ball at that age,(or any other structured activity) has replaced what we did as kids. You can't just go to the park or school with your glove and bat or what ever sport you want to play and find a game anymore. It isn't available. Just be extremely careful with the arms and remember that your kids also have gloves and bats and there isn't anything wrong with a 17-18 run game. And research practice drills. 90% of what my kids did at that age were drills disguised as games. Practice can be a blast for everyone involved. My favorite was the spin around three times with your forehead on a bat, then time the kids running the bases. I am not sure what it taught them but they had a blast doing it and got in some (hilarious) cardio.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Little League is a joke. It glamourizes kids that can't make it in the big world of travel ball.

There are those who would say that "select teams" or "travel-ball" at this age is a joke and that it glamorizes kids and parents who's over-inflated sense of self worth won't allow them to make it in Little League.

That's NOT a shot at you; I don't know you personally but I'm sure you are a great father and that you are doing what you think is best for your kid. I've just seen too many parents who are convinced that they are raising the next Alex Rodriguez, or are living some athletic pipe dream vicariously through their kid.

I've found that Little League is much like the public school system; it's what you choose to make it. What you put into it, you get out of it.

quote:

RJM, Sounds like you have a problem with travel ball or this site or life in general. We did not come on here starting a fight.

There's nothing in my post that references having a problem with this site or life. Therefore it's YOU who is looking for a fight by making the statement. I also don't have a problem with travel ball. My son played community based travel at 9U and 10U in the summer after the rec season. We "traveled" fifteen miles max. I called it advanced rec ball. At 11U and 12U he played USSSA tournaments and doubleheaders scheduled around the LL season. Everyone here played LL here. Our LL was loaded with travel pitchers for what it's worth. We didn't stick our noses up at LL because our kids were good players. When a few of the travel kids missed travel tournaments because their LL teams were at sections, states or regions their travel teammates were jealous, not making fun. They were especially jealous of the one who played on ESPN.

Travel ball became the focus team for my son at 13U. It's when development really starts to matter. He's getting a varsity tryout as a freshman this year in a large classification school. At worst, he should start varsity as a soph. He'll also be playing up to 16U travel even though he's age eligible for 14U. My daughter started playing travel at eleven. She now plays college softball. It's not about how many games your kid plays or who they play against when they are little. It comes down to how they develop their innate abilities once they hit the big field. You're not going to buy talent at a training facility. You're not going to force feed talent playing elite kiddie ball.

My kids played their fourteen games each year at seven and eight years old. We practiced twice a week. They had their incredible batting averages. They drove balls into the bushes. Who cares other than it was fun. Whether they did this or played 70 games against elite competition would have made any difference at all with the players they've become.

From having been down the path with two kids I've seen plenty of parents who act like you've posted. You couldn't wait to look down your nose and smack a program you perceive to not be elite. They have a self absorbed idea their kid is the next ONE. They completely don't understand kiddie ball doesn't create stars but it can burn them out. A kid on smaller field is building his fundamentals and passion for the game. He's not becoming a high school or college star on a little field in his prepubescent years.

What you don't understand about The LLWS is it's a piece of Americana most TV viewers can relate to. They can remember when. They can root for their state or region. They can root for USA. You could put the Elite 24 on TV and hardly anyone would watch. Casual viewers don't care about a game with the Heat versus the Bombers from who knows where. And guess where most travel players come from. The answer is rec leagues like LL and Ripken.

I was going to stay out of this -- but c'mon, "the big world of travel ball"?

Somebody needs a heavy dose of perspective.

Don't get me wrong. My son started playing for an AAU/USSSA team just before he turned 9. We loved the whole experience and it was a great father/son bonding thing for us for all those years. I am so glad we did it, and I'm only sorry it's over and I don't have a younger boy in the pipeline to repeat it with!

BUT -- we purposefully put together a team that was based locally and would play only locally. As the years went by we gradually increased how far we would go, and we got to our first overnight trips only after the boys turned 13. I knew others who flew all over the country, but we got to play them head to head and we played 'em even, so we figured we weren't missing anything by sleeping in our own beds every night.

I do feel our players profited from knowing they could throw the ball hard and the kid on the other end could catch it -- no need to throw a cream puff over there, son. I do feel our players profited from knowing from an early age that they could go head to head with the very best and more than hold their own. They gained confidence and today, several of those boys are on their way to Division I schools on scholarship. So I disagree with those who say there's no reason to do travel ball until you hit the adult field.

All that being said, Jeff, you are getting seriously carried away. Many a youth travel player discovers girls, s*o*c*c*e*r, jobs, lacrosse, or Guitar Hero, and gives it up along the way. Many of the kids who rip it up when young turn out to be "early maturers" who fall by the wayside as puberty progresses through the ranks.

Enjoy it now for what it is. But don't act like it's the major leagues, for Pete's sake.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:

quote:

Originally posted by JakeP:

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
What do you suggest we do with 8U? Coach pitch is not good mechanics for hitting. The level of rec ball at that age is terrible. There are only about 2 kids per team that can catch and hit. We put together some of the better kids within a 2 hour area and are working 2 days a week on fundamentals. Would love to hear you guys, expert, opinion.

Jeff,
In nearly 40 years of baseball 25 years or so of coaching I find this to be the most damaging thing to the game. I keep asking this on sites like this - show me one expert who says TB before big field is good for the kids. All the clinicians I have at our clinics agree it is not. 2-hours for a 7-y/o to play ball? Let him smack a ball around in the back yard with dad. developing a shared love for the game with dad/mom is the lesson he should be leaning right now. Stay away from TB until the big field.
Jake

Define expert. I can find you a lot of dads who have seen their sons succeed because of travel ball. It is not for everyone, but it is for some. I get tickled at the LLWS. Those players could not think about competing at the Travel Ball level. It has been proven because the ones who have won from the US do not compete at the Major level.

Jeff you ask a question then insist on your own answer. Why bother asking?? My "experts" included college coaches, former pro coaches, HS coaches, child psychologists, orthopedists, etc...
Do with the information what you want.

Jeff,
Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant play up in a travel program. If there's one available.

The LL program that I grew up in was great, but our area LL here stinks. I've gone out to watch what they are putting on the field and if anyone can call that "learning the basics" or "building funtamentals" you're off your rocker. Maybe Jeff's situation is the same. And I'm tired of hearing people refer to the "BIG FIELD" and saying that nothing matters until that time or you don't develop your skills until then. If you don't play select ball in some of the larger cities where TB is prevelant, then you may fall behind and not make the HS squad. I've seen that come to life first hand here in the Dallas area.
Yes, Jeff did open this can of worms by posting something that is not always agreed with, but let it go. Let's return to our peaceful discussions of what types of gloves are the best for our rising stars and how much we should hold out for on that first big contract.

7&8 year olds should play rec ball. Let them have fun with their friends and build a love for the game. I sure wouldn't let my son start pitching at 7 or 8. JMO.

Sound to me like Jeff Connell's kid might be ready for his first showcase.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Sound to me like Jeff Connell's kid might be ready for his first showcase.

I've been there and know where my kids rank in the whole scheme of things. I have a 17 year old and a 15 year old who are being recruited, so this is not my first rodeo.

I know my youngest son is a 7 year old. But machine pitch in our LL is a joke. My son is not ready for a showcase, is yours? But he is ready for something more than machine pitch. What is the difference between pitching a game a week in tournament ball and pitching a game a week in minor league LL?

Some of you on here need to get in touch with the real world. We are not forcing ball on these kids or making them out to be some super players. They are the best in East Tennessee (that want to play on this team).

LL is good for some but it is not for everyone. Some parents and kids want more. I promised I would stop posting on this topic until you attacked my kid. He plays ball every day because he wants to. Just because it is not for your kid or your neighbor's kid does not make it wrong for others.

It is no different than some high school coaches who do not think a freshman should play no matter how good they are on the varsity.

I came on here looking for players and you guys attacked me, and a group of parents and coaches who want something more for their boys.

That is the problem with this site, it's not the site, it's the EXPERTS who think just because they have coached or as you have said about yourself was an assistant coach on a team, that they have the answers.

As someone said, let's go back to giving the EXPERTS the time to discuss what kind of bat is best for 4'10" lefty hitting 9 year old who swings inside out on a LL field.

It's funny. If it is so bad for kids, why are the younger pro players putting their kids in tournament ball and not LL. Why is the tournament ball segment of younger players better and bigger than LL. Don't give me that answer because we think our players are all-americans. Most of us know where are kids fit. We just want something more than some coach who can't throw or catch trying to tell our kid how to do it. We want someone who has proven their abilities and knowledge.

I think it is also funny that you would get on here and BRAG and your son for leaving a party where drinking is going on, which I do congratulate him on, yet would trash my son and myself for making a choice to play TB rather than LL. Kind of makes you think doesn't it. We make choices every day and even some for our kids. I appreciate you trashing my decision and the other parents.

Again, I did not start this thread to start a debate or ask anyone's opinion. Just was looking for a few more players. Guess what? We found them so thanks everyone for that.

Jeff- It has nothing to do with the ability level of your son or little league, etc. Eight year olds should be playing recreationally- period. It has everything to do with the social aspect and keeping this whole thing of baseball fresh and fun.

It sounds like you have a talented son. The best thing you can do is supplement a local team with alot of one on one practice so his skill level goes up.

Listen, I've only done this for about 25 years so what the heck do I know. What I do know is that you are jeopardizing burning out your son before baseball even becomes important.

Again, this is not my first rodeo. My older son started at 8 and my middle son started at 6. Both are still playing. Older plays basketball and baseball on varsity. Middle son plays football, basketball, and baseball on varsity as a freshman. They did not get burned out.
I don't understand your term recreational. Does that mean fun? My son loves baseball and plays with some of his best friends. What is the difference between that and LL other than we are playing tournaments rather than league play. We start season earlier and play only on Saturdays.
He pitches rather than a pitching machine or coach pitch.
I just don't understand some of you guys rationale. We are not forcing this on these kids. I believe most recreation coaches are a lot more driving than we are because they have to take kids that don't want to be there, but mama and daddy force them, to become players.
What about travel ball will cause burnout versus LL?
We are not playing 100 games all over the world. 30-35 games within 1.5 hours of everyone.

quote:

yet would trash my son and myself for making a choice to play TB rather than LL.

Where did I trash your son for anything at all, much less for where he plays ball?

jeff I think where we got off track is that most people here are concerned for the health of the boys trying to pitch to many to far, most are not developed for that yet. However you did state that coach pitch does nothing for batting fundementals, at 7 or 8 or 9 either does the ball hitting the ground 20 feet in front of home, over the umpires head or in the stands. Coach pitching at this age would definatly give the boys more chances to swing the bat before the first bounce

Jeff- Because tournaments at that age are absolutely ridiculous. Do what you want- you will anyway. Just know that there are alot of people with concensus thinking that think you are making a mistake and are trying to help you.

Finally, to go on a national website that caters mainly to high school age kids and advertise for an 8 year old travel team- well, that's a little scary. THEY ARE EIGHT YEARS OLD! Maybe that's why you got so many responses that you didn't like.

Jeff-It is not you I worry about. You sound like a good guy, and a great dad who just wants to spend some time with your youngest son playing baseball. You must understand that you and your son are the exception. The person I worry about is that dad who thinks because Jeff's kid is playing on a regional 8u travel team, that his kid has to play on the same type of team. That he has to focus his kid on game so that he can move up and excel at the next level, which is 9u travel.

I'm a firm believer that the problem with youth baseball today is that they play to many games and practice to little. My oldest played little league and Pony league. Didn't travel until he was 16yo. It didn't seem to hurt him any. Love of the game is awesome. Love of the game at the expense of being a kid is for a very limited few individuals and is very sad when all the chips don't fall in place.