NEver seen in 20 years.

The run scores in both situations, providing the run scored before the 3rd out was made. The reason the run scores is because this is an appeal play and not a force play.

No one scores. The caught fly ball was the third out.

pilsner;

Good Call. 2 outs DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA on my part. Had their been one out, the explaination I gave is correct.

My bad. 1 out. Was the scenario. How is it an appeal play? The base was tagged in the second scenario. It was not done under appeal. He has to return so I say it is a force back to first. Quote a rule that defines it.

Once the fly ball was caught the force was removed. This is an appeal play and if the run scores before the 3rd out it counts.

I kind of figured Jeff meant 1 out but I couldn't be sure so I didn't elaborate. Just having a little fun.

quote:

It was not done under appeal. He has to return so I say it is a force back to first. Quote a rule that defines it.

Need to understand the difference between a "forced" runner and a runner whose illegal actions are being appealed.

A "forced" runner is one who must advance a base because of a following runners legal advance.
(e.g. runner on 1b, batter hits fair ball, runner on 1b is "forced" to 2b) In your scenarios, Jeff, when the batter hit the fair fly ball the force was on. When the fly ball was caught the force was removed.

Failure of the runner to "tag-up" after a caught
fly ball (more specifically the first touch of a caught fly ball) is an illegal action by the runner. Any action by the defense to put out the runner for his failure to tag-up is an appeal by the defense. The appeal can take place in different ways.

The appeal in your scenarios was part of continuos action or all part of the same play.
It was obvious to everyone what was taking place. The runner was trying to get back to 1b, the defense was tryng to get the ball to 1b before he returned and the umpire recognized this. There was no requirement for anyone to say: "Hey, Ump, we're appealing that he left too soon." The play by it's very nature indicates that.
Any attempt to put out a runner for missing a base or failing to retouch (tag-up) after a caught fly ball is an apppeal.
Ref: OBR Rule 7.10

Sorry, also Ref: NFHS 8-2-5

MLB Rules:

Quoted from the section on Definition of a Force Play:

quote:

Example: Not a force out.
One out. Runner on first and third.
Batter flies out. Two out.
Runner on third tags up and scores.
Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out.
Three outs.
If, in umpire's judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts. [/B]

In both cases, the run scores.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
My bad. 1 out. Was the scenario. How is it an appeal play? The base was tagged in the second scenario. It was not done under appeal. He has to return so I say it is a force back to first. Quote a rule that defines it.

Jeff,
You are not alone in failing to know what a force is. A couple of seasons ago I had a situation that proved how widespread this problem is. I was umping a Semi-Pro game using OBR (pluss NCAA FPSR and malicious contact rules) when the exact situation you described happened (only R3 did not beat the appeal and no run scored). I announced that no run scored and the coach from the defensive team (call was in his favor) comes running out of the dugout yelling that "Of course it doesn't count, that's a force out!" At first I was stunned and started s******ing until I realized he was serious! This guy was a veteran coach in the league (55-60 years old) who had been a player umpire and coach for 50+ years at one level or another. I looked at him and said, "Joe, that's not a force." and he began yelling about how us kids (I was 25 at the time) didn't have a clue about the rules. I looked at him and said, "Joe go back to your dugout, you're making a fool of yourself, you don't know what you are talking about." He didn't like that much, but he went and I think his players explained it to him because i didn't hear another word about it. In retrospect it was one of the funniest arguements I've ever had with a coach, because he loudly proved that he didn't know the rules to everyone there.