New High School Pitch Count Rules

I'm glad to see a state taking the ball and running with it.  I hope more follow.  I run the iScore for our team, and I have seen other teams let their pitchers throw a ridiculous amount of pitches.

Actually, the pitch count restrictions have been recommended by committee but it hasn't been passed yet, though I see nothing that makes me think it won't.  Additionally, there are lowere restrictions for sub-varsity.

Some interesting side notes. It will be the responsibility of the coach to monitor pitch counts. Violation will result in restriction, but no appeal of pitch counts between teams will be allowed. There is also no system being set up to record and publish pitch counts. Without some sort of peer reporting, how is this going to work?

Is this saying 110+ won't be allowed?

We are deeply involved and working with both MLB and USA Baseball in this initiative. A website has been developed, not sure if I can give out the link yet, that will lay out a plan  based on a combination of baseball and medical people.  It looks as though the numbers listed by that state association came from those recommendations.

Discussions are still taking place, so I'm not sure everything has been finalized.  Once finalized I would recommend that all parents should read it.  All coaches, too.

This is great.  But pitch counts for the entire travel industry would help a lot more than HS pitch counts, IMHO.

Don't most HS teams play 2 games a week, except for a tournament or two?  I believe the potential for abuse is more prevalent in travel ball, where weekend after weekend teams can play 5-6 games over two days and the innings restrictions, if they exist at all, are a joke.  And some kids are playing for multiple teams, which compounds the issue.  

We've always gone by one pitch =  one hour.  Good advice given to him by a top D1 coach when he went to one of his camps in TX.  

PG when I say this it is not to create problems, I am a supporter of what you do and I do not have issue.  However, if HS baseball should reach guidelines do you believe that your own tournaments should have guidelines?  I personally witnessed an ABD coach have a kid pitch 4 innings at night and bring him back the next morning for 2 more.  Based off the chart posted above he would have been required 2 days rest after his night outing.

Some coaches will reduce their team's competitiveness by following the new rules precisely.  Others won't.  Unenforceable pitching restrictions guarantee suspicion and controversy.

It should not be that hard.  After every inning the opposition calls out the pitches in the inning for the pitcher.  Settle up before the next inning starts.  That is a $2 counter and something to write it down on.  State Athletic associations have websites - put a sharable Excel spreadsheet in with about 8 columns, Date of game, Team, Name of Pitcher, name of opponent, pitches thrown, name of Pitcher's coach, name of certifier, Certifiers position i.e. Head coach or Asst. Coach.

Set up a spreadsheet for each league or district and prepopulate the schedule with 5/6 rows per game - AD's can do this.  The only reason to change any of that is if there is a rainout (date) or a coach leaves the job or you need to insert a couple of rows because you used more pitchers.  Should cost about $0 assuming the state athletic association has a license to excel.  If not it costs about $100.  The ultimate in small change.   

Here's how to enforce it:

Found to be cheating or not reporting (give them one full calendar day following game) banned from coaching in the state and lose that teaching/city job if they have one.  It'll take 10 minutes after the game. 

This is one of those things that should be like batting helmets.  Just do it as part of being in the game.

Won't work.  There is this thing called a union and teaching/coaching jobs are not connected.

This reminds me of when my son was 8 years old playing Little League.  They used the same system, which worked great until the two sides disagreed.  During one game, every inning became a 5-10 minute battle comparing every pitch in two score books.  Then a shouting match erupted when the umpire called the game due to time limits after at least 30 minutes were eaten up by the pitch count arguments.  Could this scenario happen at the high school level?  Unfortunately, I'm sure it could.

I’m glad another state has decided it’s time to open their eyes, and I’d be surprised if they hadn’t already talked to Vt and the PSAL in NY to find out how their implementations had gone.

Originally Posted by roothog66:

Some interesting side notes. It will be the responsibility of the coach to monitor pitch counts.

Violation will result in restriction, but no appeal of pitch counts between teams will be allowed. There is also no system being set up to record and publish pitch counts. Without some sort of peer reporting, how is this going to work?

I’ve been down this road before, and can’t understand why so few people know that there’s already a national place where the pitch counts of every HS pitcher can be stored right now, and for no cost. As long as the rules will put the onus on the coaches anyway, all they have to do it use MaxPreps! I’ve been storing pitch count information there since 2007. They’ve recently made that service available to Fr and JV too, rather than only V.

A coach can check on any opponent’s pitchers by simply looking at their stats. You can not only see the pitch counts, you can see the rest as well. And for those paranoid personalities who believe making their stats public will destroy their players and teams, there shouldn’t be any problem at all. If a coach is so inclined, he only has to put in the pitch count and nothing else. The date will be auto-filled by the choice he makes for the outing.

As far as enforcement goes, there no reason why MP couldn’t set up something to automatically detect violations. It’s a simple SQL statement, and a report could be automatically sent to the governing body.

Here’s the problem though. Coaches will learn they can lie when they input the numbers. I’m sure only a tiny percentage would do that, but you can bet your bumpkis that it will happen. That means opposing coaches will have to monitor what the team they just played put in.

Some years back I caused a minor stir in the official world when I stupidly suggested they be the ones who entered that data, and should be the only ones who could edit it. We’re talking about a few minutes after every game for the only paid officials to put a stamp of integrity on the process. I can’t begin to tell you how I got roasted. Some umpires were fine with it, but the general feeling of the majority I talked to said it wasn’t their job.

I know that for a few years Arbiter sent in game results and scores for everyone around here and still might, so I know it can be done if the will is there to do it. The pieces are all available. All that has to be done is use them.

Originally Posted by JCG:

This is great.  But pitch counts for the entire travel industry would help a lot more than HS pitch counts, IMHO.

There’s no doubt more players would be affected, but there’s a hitch in the giddyup. Travel and tournaments are driven by $$$$$$. However, if USA Baseball wanted to, they have the power to implement them whenever they please.

Don't most HS teams play 2 games a week, except for a tournament or two?  I believe the potential for abuse is more prevalent in travel ball, where weekend after weekend teams can play 5-6 games over two days and the innings restrictions, if they exist at all, are a joke.  And some kids are playing for multiple teams, which compounds the issue.  

I don’t know about MOST teams. I know the majority of teams around here play 3 or more games a week for at least part of their schedule. There’s another issue for HS. Every state has different pitching limitation rules because there’s no national requirement.

Because of our state’s rules being the most strict in the nation, we don’t have a lot of problems to begin with. http://www.infosports.com/scor...mages/pitlimitsa.pdf  But take a look at some of the others and you can see a train wreck about to happen. Look at Co’s current limits. No more than 12 innings in in any 3 calendar days is almost begging coaches to overuse some of their pitchers.

USSSA baseball is much a bigger issue than USA baseball.

The organization I'm talking about has authority over all amateur baseball in the country, which means its a sub-group just like LLI or CR.

They're not subgroups, but if USA can convince USSSA CR, Legion, etc., to set limits that's great. Unfortunately there's plenty of other travel ball out there, like Super Series, All World, and unaffiliated tournaments that's not affiliated with USA.

Originally Posted by JCG:

They're not subgroups, but if USA can convince USSSA CR, Legion, etc., to set limits that's great. Unfortunately there's plenty of other travel ball out there, like Super Series, All World, and unaffiliated tournaments that's not affiliated with USA.

Its not that anyone’s “affiliated”. They’re the authority. http://web.usabaseball.com/about/

USA Baseball is the authority over USA Baseball.  They have no authority over USSSA, Super Series, AAU, etc which are the organizations that run many of the youth travel baseball tournaments.  These organizations have their own pitching limitation rules.

I spoke with the folks over at MaxPreps about CO or anyone using their services and found out they already had an agreement with CO.

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/n...i-year-agreement.htm

I don’t have a clue as to how much weight CHSAA really has, but it sure looks like those coaches who don’t want to post public stats might be on the outside looking in when it comes to rankings and post season play. I guess that might be a good enough reason to post the stats.

Not the case at all.  Southern Section has an agreements with Maxpreps as well.  However, we do not have to post stats in anyway shape or form  On top of that keep in mind TP is a category that is to be entered.  It is not a category that HAS to be entered.

Originally Posted by IEBSBL:

Not the case at all.  Southern Section has an agreements with Maxpreps as well.  However, we do not have to post stats in anyway shape or form  On top of that keep in mind TP is a category that is to be entered.  It is not a category that HAS to be entered.

All I know is what I read.

No category HAS to be entered. In fact, if you look back you’ll see that I noted the possibility of only posting PCs and nothing else.

JEEZ! All I tried to do was point out that there is something already in place, and that the state implementing the new rules already has a relationship with the company who owns that place where the data can be kept.

This shows why there’s been so much animosity about PCs. Some people just don’t want to change the way they do things. Hey. Fight it and re-invent the wheel all you want. It has absolutely no effect on me.

Deep breath, Deep Breath!!  I understand and I was not chastising you, find your happy place.  I am just letting you know from a Coach, whom is in an area that has a deal with Maxpreps what the nature of that deal is. 

I think it is important to understand this project is designed to educate people.  It is based on suggestions and recommendations.  It is good solid information, I think most important to parents and coaches.

So they are providing information, but it is up to others to decide what to do with that information. This is driven by MLB, MLB is the major support for USA Baseball.  It would be foolish to ignore the suggestions.  

Finally, we use Game Changer and other technology that gives us absolute accurate pitch counts.  I don't think the team score book would lead to total accuracy.  And there aren't enough quality score keepers to make PC numbers accurate.  The actual counters (clickers) are used a lot, but it is easy to error with them.  So when you have actual rules in place, you need perfectly accurate numbers.  Even then, pitch counts are just one of many suggestions.  Abuse involves many other things. A one game pitch count doesn't tell the whole story.

We plan to make sure everyone playing in our events understands the guide lines.  We haven't decided whether we want to create rules and penalties yet.  We are discussing that now.  We do see abuse at times, but it is fairly rare.  Most of the highest level programs do a very good job of protecting their pitchers.  Once in awhile, winning gets in the way of clear thinking for a few.

Interesting to me was the Little League involvement.  If someone reads all the material, it mentions curveballs and sliders.  While curveballs have mixed opinions, I think everyone agrees that improperly thrown curveballs would fall into the dangerous category.  So will we continue to see those Little League pitchers throwing so many curveballs.

Bottom line... It is great to see MLB and USA trying to make baseball better and safer for our young players. 

Originally Posted by IEBSBL:

Deep breath, Deep Breath!!  I understand and I was not chastising you, find your happy place.  I am just letting you know from a Coach, whom is in an area that has a deal with Maxpreps what the nature of that deal is. 

OK, here’s what I’ve done.

Based on what you’ve stated here, this morning I called MaxPreps and talked to the young lady who’s the main support person for baseball and softball. She read through the thread and told me that what I said was true, and reiterated that there was indeed a partnership between CHSAA and MP. She also said she’d be happy to talk to you, so if you want her direct number or e-mail address, let me know and I’ll PM it to you.

When I got done speaking to her, I called the CHSAA. The young woman that answered the phone told me there was indeed such an agreement in place, and that it pertained to the entire state, no matter what the section. She said coaches were required to enter schedules, rosters, game scores, and player stats. She also said they don’t actively police that, but they do send bulletins to coaches and ADs to remind them about it. She also said that if a coach didn’t abide by the agreement, his team could be left out of any consideration for post-season play. She also noted that the pitch count rule was still only a proposition, but was still moving forward.

The bottom line here is, if you are really a HS coach and you really refuse to comply with the agreement, you’re leaving yourself and the school open to disciplinary proceedings. This doesn’t come from me, it comes from people at a much higher pay grade. The one question I didn’t ask but should have, is if that agreement pertains only to the varsity which would make sense, since I don’t know of any national rankings for a JV or Fr baseball team. So if you aren’t the VHC, it may well be that you aren’t aware of the requirement.

At any rate, I assure you that I am in a happy place. I am only concerned with making sure you don’t cause either yourself or your school any difficulties. If I come across as anything other than sincere about that, I can only say I am.

Exactly....may be a pitch count but pitcher may throw a dozen CB's in just one inning.  Pitch counts are easy to enforce, CB's are not but it drives me crazy to see so many being thrown.

At the risk of even more sideways thread drift, two points:

1 - ASMI has taken a firm stance on overuse being the main cause of youth pitching injuries, not curveballs.

2 - Regarding LL, when you say it drives you nuts are you talking about watching the LLWS or regular season LL games?  If it's the WS then I wouldn't worry so much. That's a very small number of kids, and the kids throwing 50% deuces in the LLWS are up against the best of the best. If you watch those kids in regular games they throw 90%+ fastballs.  That's all they need.

WS Series only.   Very limited LL in my area.  Mainly Select baseball of some sort and most of it is out of town.

I've read the same from ASMI but, if I remember correctly, it is IF thrown correctly....That is a big IF

LMAO, that is funny.  I believe everything you are telling me.  However, Not only am I a varsity coach I am also a rep for my area and in regards to what the lady told you, we have never been told anything of that nature.  On top of that I have communicated with Maxpreps about not posting stats and they have never told me anything of that nature.  I believe you are sincere, and I am not calling you a liar, but I am telling you if Maxpreps ACTUALLY cared we would know about it.  Yes they send bulletins about stats but we have never been told that we will miss playoffs because of it nor has my AD who is a higher up within our Athletic region. 

So here is what I found out...... Per our section we must input our schedule into Maxpreps and that is it. 

Originally Posted by IEBSBL:

So here is what I found out...... Per our section we must input our schedule into Maxpreps and that is it. 

I don’t think you’re calling me a liar at all. But rather than talk to your section, why not talk to the CHSAA? We have a master assn an sections too, and the sections have a heck of a lot of autonomous authority. But, the master still make the rules. However it could be the lady I talked to was full of BS, but I sure didn’t get that impression.

I just don’t see what reason the master would have for entering into an agreement when the sections which are subservient are going to pay any attention. I’d love to contact the section myself, but I’m not making a bunch of calls hoping to get the right one.

Welcome to my life, lol.  There is so much that goes on to be honest and it is crazy.  The state enters into these agreements based off of financial reasons and they know there is no way of policing it.  I agree that it does not make sens but there is a lot of things that go on that do not make sense that I see with the sections.  There is a reason the Rome fell and that is because they tried to control the world.  The master is trying to control to many people, that are allowed to have to many different rules.  Case in point, why would the "Master" allow every section to have a double elimination playoff for baseball and not sign of on the southern section doing it?

Originally Posted by IEBSBL:

Welcome to my life, lol.  There is so much that goes on to be honest and it is crazy.  The state enters into these agreements based off of financial reasons and they know there is no way of policing it.  I agree that it does not make sens but there is a lot of things that go on that do not make sense that I see with the sections.  There is a reason the Rome fell and that is because they tried to control the world.  The master is trying to control to many people, that are allowed to have to many different rules.  Case in point, why would the "Master" allow every section to have a double elimination playoff for baseball and not sign of on the southern section doing it?

I can understand why things like this aren’t policed. It’s the same reason the REAL police don’t enforce all the laws on the books. It would be prohibitively expensive to do it.

In your case, my understanding is 234 of the schools post stats on MP. That’s individual stats not scores. I’m told that’s 86% of the schools. That means there’s 35-40 coaches that for some reason feel they don’t need to participate. The percentage is much higher for those posting scores, but it’s almost impossible to tell how many it is because unlike player stats, a school don’t have to post the scores for them to get posted. If you play 18 games against schools that do post scores, every game will get posted.

I understand the political problems you have with the state assn. We have 14 different sections, 7 different divisions, God knows how many leagues, and what seems like a billion teams. The bureaucracy is immense and the politics are vicious.

Speaking of CIF sections, I'd like to get this off my chest. My kid's school is hosting a second round football playoff game tonight against another local school.  I'm guessing the gate will be at least $15k.  Maybe $20k.  Guess how much of that the two schools share?  $0.00.  It all goes to section.  What they do with it I have no idea.  I wonder if their finances are required to be public....

I don’t know what your section does with the $$$, but here’s what ours says.

http://www.cifsjs.org/about-cif-sjs/what-we-do/

Funny thing about non-profits is that they can be very lucrative for the employees and vendors.  Your section doesn't seem to post financials. Ours does.

$2 Million yearly budget.  $600K in salaries, including $140K plus retirement and medical benefits for the commissioner.  $126K plus bennies for the Associate.  $110K plus bennies for the assistant. Now I know why the don't have any money to share with the schools.  In fact, they collect dues.