New Pitcher to Post

This kid does an excellent job of getting power out of his delivery. The only things that stick out at all is his sideways and forward step that he makes when he starts his wind-up. He also rush's just a little, but with that being said the next time I see a 15 year old who doesnt rush at all will be the first time. If the kids only 15, then he just needs to grow, get stronger, and keep learning how to pitch. No real issues, just a young kid with a pretty good delivery.

I think his tempo is fine. If anything, I would tell him to speed it up once his hands break.

Can't throw fast, moving slow.

Looks pretty good. Fluid motion. Glove tuck stride and landing seem good.
The video is slow so hard to judge his motion .

Ever heard of Steve Avery?

Pretty Nice!

RobV, I agree, and that is one of the things I keep gently prompting him to work on.

DeeMack, I have often scratched my head over his initial side-step. I never taught him that! But he says, "just feels right." I've often wondered if there's anything at all 'illegal' in that step for some eagle-eyed Blue....but nothing's ever been said.

Now if they'd just install a proper mound instead of trotting out this ramp every time they play........

It is illegal. It never gets called, so who cares.

I don't think the arm action is big league.

I think he flares his lead leg open.

I think he loses his rear knee.

I think there is 5mph more with good mechanics.

Krakatoa,

Do you have any other video of your young guy? This video appears to be missing several frames. My guess is it was recorded at 15 frames per second. It's hard to really see what's going on without at least 30 frames per second. Most digital camera's that I've seen record video at 15 frames per second. If you have an actual video camera/camcorder use that to capture your video. That'll give you 30 fps.

With that said... In most high level pitchers that I've seen there is an alignment of the post leg (i.e. ankle, knee, hip) that is maintained as the pitcher moves down the mound and begins rotating into foot plant. It's hard to tell for sure because of the video quality but it appears to me that your son loses this alignment. From a technical standpoint I'm not exactly sure what this alignment does for a pitcher but if I had to guess I'd say it puts the body in position to rotate more efficiently which ultimately leads to more energy that can be transferred up the body and out to the throwing arm.

Like I said earlier, it's tough to tell for sure what's happening based on the clip quality but my guess at this point is that your son isn't getting as much as he could from his lower body.

Jason

No, this is the technology we have at our disposal, for better or worse!!

I did submit another clip which is shot from a slight angle behind the pitcher - might give you a better angle to look at those alignment issues.

He's got a very nice move. I agree with Demack on the side step. From what I have been told, the problem with that side step is it requires him to find the center every single pitch, and if he is off a little bit the pitch itself will be off side to side since the momentum won't be going precisely at the target.

My son was always taught that he should have all his momentum to the target, and that kind of side to side movement frustrates that.

But he really looks good mechanically to me. I am no spert, however. But the kid can throw.

Look at his glove side - very nice! Nice torque.

Thanks for the analysis, Rob. I don't like the side-step. The kid doesn't much want to hear it from me anymore, so I'm going to have his HS coach suggest a re-working of that initial movement. Now that I think about where that step came from, I bet it has to do with his nine years of Tae Kwon Do training. He's very much accustomed to all sorts of various stepping techniques, and may be comfortable finding his center from that point. But, it may also tie into what Flipp is saying about the backside alignment......will definitely experiement and see what happens. Thanks everyone.

Krak,

Before you change the side step, understand that there are a very large number of Major League pitchers who do it.

It's always a problem if the pitcher is moving his body side to side, but most who step to the side use a very small step and really don't move their body at all.

Some very good pitching coaches actually teach this rather than the old step straight back method.

The thought process is... The throwing action does not start until you leave the balance position. Some do disagree with this.

Stepping to the side makes getting to the balance position much easier than stepping straight back and bringing the the lift leg pivoting around the body to reach the balance position.

I've never heard of this being illegal at all and if you watch enough big league pitchers you'll see it a lot.

I would watch out for a long side step just as watching out for a long step straight back. Please check with several high level pitching coaches before forcing this change.

Thanks, PG. Point well taken!

Agree with the comment about the leg alignment. If you slow down the vid, you see that he moves out in the center but leaves the back leg behind then sits. The problem then is that he sits between the legs and essentially disconnects the middle from the back leg. The alignment allows you to rotate better and transfer energy up the chain.

I would love to see this at 30 fps to check tempo.

I'm not a big fan of hand separation leading to straightening of the arms but I got no real info to pass other than it is hard to get a pinch with straight arms if you beleive a pinch is necessary.

This is of course my opinion. I think it's awesome that you posted a clip and assure you that if you post and ask for help...you'll get it. Good luck to you.

Razor

razor - thanks for the feedback. Are you saying he should strive for more 'direct propulsion' from the rear leg straight up through the core? That because of the 'sitting', he is breaking the chain in the drivetrain so to speak? Sorry, I'm not sure what the universal terminology is, so am just throwing various analogies out there!

His Korean pitching coach (a former successful pro pitcher in the KBL) taught him to 'sit'. I think this guy's idol was Hasegawa (rare to have a Korean idolize a Japanese player because of the history between the two countries, but just goes to show that sports can heal old wounds)??? He had a bunch of posters of him in his office, and Hasegawa SITS big-time. Not arguing, just explaining where that comes from.
Should he 'sit' earlier in the delivery, while the weight is still shifted mostly to the rear?

I think I understand what you're saying, and I think it also leads to that trailing foot DRAG that you'll see. I would rather see the rear foot PROPELLING directly off the front of the rubber. I've noticed that many of the hardest throwers around are NOT connected to the ground on the rear foot at release or VERY soon after.

here are Shiggy and the Unit....

BTW, the clip was shot at 30fps. Does the transfer to the webpage diminish the fps? Or does Quicktime drop it down? When I view it at home, directly from the file, it plays in real time, and at 30fps. I'm not tech savvy enough to figure out the dropout in fps, however......

I use the latest Quicktime to view and convert the file. I downloaded the clip again and viewed it in Quicktime again. The file you sent has a lot of missing frames. Example, there are only 2 frames from foot plant to ball release..........NO WAY

Then there are clips that have duplicate frames every so often. When I cull those out, you get basically the same thing, 15 f/s.


In order to view accurate 30 f/s clips correctly, you need to download them to your computer, and play them in a suitable program.

I've found that Animation Shop works well. This program allows you to change the display duration of each frame. Typically, each frame is displayed for 3/100 of a second and is farely accurate.

Krak said:

quote:

This is a curve, velocity 68-70, age 15 yrs 3 mos. Any telegraphing? Also, I notice that on ball-glove separation, his hand is not exactly 'on top'. It finally rotates to the top in time to "show the peace sign to center field", so is that okay, or should he practice staying on top right upon separation?

It is a little confusing. I'm not saying to not sit ..quite the contrary. Watch the lower part of the back leg. It starts to move then stops. The alignment Flip talked about is a side view where it appears that the ankle, knee and hip stay in a fairly straight line. If you can slow the vid you'll see it clearly. My experience has been that the alignment puts you in a better position to rotate because your moving forward effortlessly.

Sit is good but there is afew frames where he looks like he is taking a *&$# in the woods. That's not where he wants to be.

Opinion of course.

R

Krakatoa,

Look at the post leg alignment of that "Shiggy" image you posted. If it was a true side view you'd be able to draw a line from his hip to his ankle and that line would be straight like this "/". If you drew a line on a image of your son at the same point in the delivery it would look more like this "<".

Take a look at the movement of the post foot in the back view that cap_n just posted for you. Notice the positioning of his foot on the rubber as he lifts his stride leg and begins moving out. His toes are on the rubber and his heel is against it. In other words his toes are outside of his heel. Not a good position to be in if you hope to rotate very efficiently.

Try this... Stand up with your feet shoulder width apart and straight (i.e. toes in line with heel) or possibly even having the back/post foot turned in slightly (i.e. toes inside of the heel). From this position turn your hips as you would to pitch a ball or swing a bat. The back knee turns the direction you're turning and does so without even really trying doesn't it? Now turn your back/post foot outward so the toes are outside of the heel and again turn your hips. The back knee doesn't turn as freely as it did before does it? For me it feels stuck and kind of uncomfortable. This is what is happening with your son.

My suggestion would be to have your son either place the entire side of his back/post foot up against the rubber or, at the most, place only the outside edge of his back/post foot heel on the rubber and see how his lower body responds.

I hope this helps!

Jason

P.S. I just saw your post razor. Your second paragraph has me laughing my a$$ off.

It is obvious this young man has been taught properly by a PRO.
I see nothing wrong with his delivery. He has a couple of things like the side step that are his preference or comfort things but over all not much wrong .
The 1st clip and we all know it is slower than the actuall motion is very good and he seems to be in a best fielding position for a come backer.
In the rear shot he appears to fall away after realease but his mechanics are solid and the only thing wrong is he is not a lefty.

I mentioned the sidestep to be nit picky, not because he had any real faults. I thought it was posted as a challenge to find anything wrong. If hes comfortable with the side step, and is having sucsess in the strikezone then leave it be... On the curveball clip be sure that your sons stride foot doesnt get to closed. its ok to land a little open or closed, but be careful that his closure doesnt become dramatic. In time I think your son will also have a very good downer. The arm slot is thier. His break will be more 12-6 when he learns to get his hand on top of the ball (it helps to think about hooking your wrist, physiclly it wont actually hook but it helps when trying to get the feel of your fingers getting ontop of the ball), and doesnt peel across his body when he releases it. This will really help the ball get more topspin. It also helps the curve to try and shorten up your stride a couple of inches, this makes it much easier to get out over your lead leg and really spin it good. You have alot of potential to work with here, dont let anyone take away his knee pump and load...sorry I wrote so much, all in all he looks really good...peace

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
It is obvious this young man has been taught properly by a PRO. I see nothing wrong with his delivery. ...

Then again, as the great huckster from Connecticut says....."You can only see what you can see."

Credit where credit is due. Full credit.

Can I fly you all out to Korea for a hands-on conference?! I'm trying to see the rear leg thing - visualize rather - it will come to me as I wrap my brain around it.
I appreciate the feedback everyone, very much.
He's pitching the season-opener today. Unfortunately I can't be there - and THAT has ME acting like a constipated bear trying to $#!+ in the woods!!

quote:

...and the only thing wrong is he is not a lefty.

Just caught the above part of your post.

And, it may have something to do with what you call good mechanics.

Because lefty's get by with stuff that righties don't.

quote:

Take a look at the movement of the post foot in the back view that cap_n just posted for you. Notice the positioning of his foot on the rubber as he lifts his stride leg and begins moving out. His toes are on the rubber and his heel is against it. In other words his toes are outside of his heel. Not a good position to be in if you hope to rotate very efficiently.

Yeah, Flipp, I can see it in both clips. Definitely an interrupter. I will show that to him.

On the leg alignment thing - you show Shiggy as / and the boy as <. In the <, is that center point the knee? If I'm understanding what you're saying, it seems the rear foot placement, with toes outside the heel, would lead directly to that sort of inefficient rear-leg 'crux', right? In other words, the potential energy that COULD be stored in that leg (and directed straight up through the core and into the delivery) if it were / is dissipated because there is a disconnect and the leg is actually <, causing the energy to be displaced only into the knee then no further.

I think I get it.

Krakatoa,

I think you're starting to catch on to what I was trying to explain. If I have time this weekend I'll post a clip or two showing exactly what I'm talking about.

Best of luck to your son today. Let us know how he does.

Jason

The purpose of the slow video is that you can see things better..if you go frame by frame you see even more.

He does a lot of stuff very well. Go back to the slobintoronto clip and look at his back leg alignment..just the alignment. You can have the sit and that alignment....it will help him rotate. The slob clip does not have the sit so dont think that is the answer but he maintains the alignment well.

My opinion.

Razor

My opinion of course.

quote:

My opinion.

lol stop saying that so much

OK Smokky.

Here's what to do. Find a pole like you may have in your basement or garage. Put your foot against it and hold on to it. Now move your hips out keeping the leg perfectly straight. That is the alignment. Now while your out there, keep the alignment but sit into it. You will see that you can keep the alignment and have the sit.

This is also a good exercise. Keep your foot off the ground and do the movement. Sit and hold it.

Also , the back foot preloaded will be a good move also. That's a good catch by JFlippunit.

Razor

I could be wrong but it's what I think....is that better Smoker?

Razor

I'm no expert and I don't play one on television. To me, the view from behind the mound looks like there's some cross-firing/throwing across the body. The velocity is good for a 15 year old.

There was one thing that I noticed that I don't think anyone else has. Don't wuote me on this I didn't read everyone's posts. Even looking at the 1st clip I thought I noticed it and then after the second clip deffinately. The arm action going back is completely revealing the pitch. If he could work on a straight back arm action and keeping the hips in. He'll be excellent.

To me he has a much cleaner delivery on his FB motion. Agree with Flipp on the positioning of his back foot and the rubber. Get him butted up to the rubber from heal to toe. It will free him up and he won't be throwing across his body as much. Also the lead leg in his windup, instead of circling around, think back pocket to glove or pick it up and put it down. That might stop the throwing across the body too. I think he needs to stay on top of the ball when he comes out of the glove too, he almost pronates out when he comes out.
On the FB he stays nice and closed but on the curve ball he is flying open with the front side. Notice the hips in each. (much worse on the second shot) Can close off the front landing foot a little and this will help close off the front side and he will get more core involved.
Good power position, good rythm , and real nice arm action for a 15...

Thanks for the input - very valuable - like getting a free pitching clinic. I hope more folks will post up some clips - I know it's always a gamble because it's our child we're putting out there (and a lot of our own toil) and we're afraid what some might say. But I have been very happy with the constructive criticism received here. Thanks. The coolest thing is that I've been able to sit here with my son, look at his clips, and match the advice being offered to the clips -- and he has been very open to all the suggestions.

He opened the season yesterday for his team. They won 13-2 in a five-inning game.

4IP - 12K - 1BB - 1H - 1ER - 1shirt-knicker!

Great job. Pretty much smoked em it sounds like.

Keep up the good work.

AS good as he is, I think he can be better. The fact that you posted makes me think you guys agree. It's good to expose yourself. There is no growth in the comfort zone. Good job guys!!!

Razor

Excellent start to the season "Krak Jr."!!!!

Remember... Improvement begins with a change.

Good luck!

Jason

Okay, I'm still wrapping my brain around this. Text descriptions are tough to analyze in some cases, and this is one. However, after re-reading the post-leg-alignment comments and really studying the vids as well as the Shiggy Squat, I see what you're saying.

With my son....

His post leg alignment breaks at the knee as his upper leg angles off toward the plate, leaving the lower leg still more upright and thus unsynchronized and disconnected (lower leg gets 'left behind').

With the Hasegawa Photo...

His post leg is a single unit, from ankle right up to hip, with no LATERAL 'disconnect' at the knee - it is a solid pillar of a leg.

If I'm wrong, please correct me with some other photos or clips....thanks.

You are correct. If you do the pole thing you can get the feel for what it takes to sit while maintaining that angle. Also you will have notice that you still have the leg loaded to use getting around the corner which will make staying closed easier.

Good work.

Be careful with "solid pillar of a leg",,,it's aligned.

R