Nice Picture

Fungo,
Nice picture of Mark Bellhorn...very quiet and unassuming youngman...
It is a great day in Red Sox Nation today...and no there were not any cars tipped or other tragic events surrounding their wonderful win last evening...
We, here, in Boston have had to endure a significant amount of trash talk...from being called whinners to being accused of being loud-mouthed, obnoxious, know nothing fans...certain areas of the city have been demoralized by equating the fact that the players remind people of the residents of that area...when, in fact, there are million dollar waterfront homes there, as well as some lesser priced areas...not unlike most towns in this country that contain good parts as well as bad...
The players, while being the most unlikely group to excel at a game which is stoic in their appearance, provided immense entertainment...their own, unique personalities were allowed to be displayed while playing a game near and dear to their hearts..
Somehow, I feel that the game changed today...gone is the "curse" that added drama to the Yankee/Red Sox rivilary...gone is holding our breaths at each and every pitch during playoffs and finally the "Babe" can rest in peace...no longer will his face grace so many venues...but for the here and now, we here in Boston, will celebrate one of the most dramatic comebacks in baseball history

Bellhorn is one of four Orlando area high school players on the team.

Congratulations to Bellhorn.
He listened to alot of criticism and prevailed.

Here's another great pic!

Dad, I was amused that it was "all Orlando" up the middle: Veritek, Lake Brantley; Bellhorn, Oveido; Johnny Damon, Dr. Phillips.....and 'Orlando' Cabrerra at short!

Orlando
Bronson Arroyo was All State at Hernando High School also. Strong up the middle! Its the Cabrera Era. Jonny is the Man! This is for guys like Pesky, Doerr, Dommy, Ted, Yaz, Rico, Ken Coleman, Ned Martin, Bill Buckner and everybody else who bleeds RED.

But, but....Cardinal fans bleed Red, too!


Actually, everybody bleeds red......

The best team won. They were the best team before the series started and they proved it.

Compare the lineups. Red Sox win offensively.

Compare the pitching. Red Sox win convincingly.

Cardinals are better defensively but defense means nothing without pitching. Which the Cardinals do not have.

When was the last time you saw a hitting and defense team win. Compared to pitching and defense, or pitching and offense. (Few teams have all three)

Go back as many years as you want. Every LaRussa Cardinal team that has made the playoffs had little to no chance.

Until Walt Jockety realizes that you have to have a stopper (you can make a case that you need two of them) the Cards can not win it all.

Todd Worrell, former Cardinal closer, has made public statements that the Cards would have a better chance trading Pujols for two pitchers, at least one being a stopper (a real stopper....Randy Johnson of the past, Curt Schilling, Pedro, Clemens type pitcher)

I have to agree with him......although I think Pujols is great. When you compare the cost and benefits of the dollars spent, and using your money to give you the best shot, Worrell is on target.

The Cardinals haven't had a #1 pitcher in years. Maybe Steve Carleton was the last one. They seem to find several #2's and #3's but never enough power to win a short series when the opponent has a stopper or two. Which almost every World Series winner has.

Matt Morris has never been a #1. Yet the Cardinals market him as one. And, most shallow thinking Cardinal fans buy it. He had a great year. Everyone is disgusted with his performance this year. Well, his performance was excellent. The expectations were ridiculous. Matt Morris may be the best #4 or #5 pitcher in baseball. But to call him your #1 is ridiculous.

Darrell Kyle was never a #1. John Tudor was close but not really.

How can you expect to win a series with matchups like Schilling v Morris and Suppan v Pedro????????

I realize there are dollar limits, but the Cards dollar is very poorly spent.

Teach,
1989 Oakland As, a LaRussa team. 2002 Angels won without dominant starting pitching.

Those are isolated incidents and in general I agree with your premise. Generally speaking a team that makes it to the playoffs with two dominant starters has a significant advantage, even going back to some of the punchless Dodger teams of the past. If Schilling had been healthy the ALCS would have been over quicker.

Wasn't Dave Stewart pretty dominating in those days??

I agree with the Angels.

Teach,
Sure Stewart was pretty good, (edited portion - and they also had Bob Welch and Mike Moore who had pretty good years,) but you made a comment about LaRussa that wasn't directly linked to the pitching issue as far as I could tell.

I edited my post to be more clear.

So, let me get this straight: if you have one (preferably two) dominant pitchers, serious O, and at least credible D, you'll do well.

Excuse me while I go write that down.

This is just like the ongoing discussions on the fan forums, particularly at the trade deadline. One of the problems is that there isn't a 'Bob Gibson R Us' to go shop in. Established pitchers have veto power on trades, there's the question of balance between paying the bat/fielder who's in the lineup every day vs. the starter you've got once every five, there are heavy contracts for pitchers who are aging fast and will soon become nothing but a financial drain, and on and on. Then there's a rather limited supply of true aces (and even fewer lights-out closers).....certainly not 60 to give all teams two, or thirty to give each team one. Do you bring in a heavy contract when you've got somebody down on the farm who might be the next Cy Young? And who's putting the bums in seats?

TLR & The Cards managed 105 wins with mediocre pitching backed up by spectacular defense and some serious bats, in a year when all the 'experts' ignored the role of defense in pitching success and had them finishing no higher than third in the Central. The element in their successful season that changed in the WS was the bats; the rest was as it had been all season. Was this the Sox' pitching, the bats slumping, or a combination of both? Anybody's answer to that question will pretty much be in line with their team or league loyalties.

Where's that link Glove gave us again about hiring the sports show callers?

I didn't think you could set your bias aside and look at the facts so let me make it clear.

Go down the starting lineups offensively. Boston wins the head to head matchups in 4 of the 8 spots (assuming no DH lineups). They tie between Rolen and Ortiz although I feel Ortiz is a much better offensive threat. The Cards win three (Walker, Pujols, Edmonds) with Pujols having a very slight advantage over Ramirez.

But, in 2 of the 4 slots that Boston wins, they have a significant advantage over St Louis. Damon siginificantly better than Womack and Bellhorn significantly better than Matheny.

Boston wins hands down, offensively.

Pitching is no contest. Boston wins in rotation, setup is equal and Boston wins in closing.

Cards win in defense.

The difference between the 105 regular season wins and the World Series loss, is, during the regular season you don't face an ace 4 out of every 7 games. If you did the Cards would be .500 at best.

A general manager has to know the difference between winning the regular season and having a competitive playoff team.

The Cards, under TLR and W Jockety have never been competitive in playoffs.

They don't spend the money wisely.

quote:

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Originally posted by Orlando:
So, let me get this straight: if you have one (preferably two) dominant pitchers, serious O, and at least credible D, you'll do well.

---

I couldn't have said it better.

Actually the difference between 105 regular season wins and Boston's 98 is having the Yankees in the same division. The Cards wouldn't have won as many in the AL East and the Sox would have won more in the NL Central.

Interestingly, St. Louis dominated in interleague play while Boston was .500 in interleague.

I think the Yankees and Cardinals were very similar teams, but the Red Sox matched up better in the playoffs.

Ain't hindsight wonderful?

And my 'bias' was displayed in that post....how? Well, perhaps it was the bias against armchair GMs (apparently from the Tim McCarver School of Obvious Baseball Thought) who say "that team needs an ace or two!" without identifying who these much-needed, available, buying-talent-not-reputation Aces are.

Is this REALLY what hsbaseballweb has become? A thread titiled "Nice Picture" becomes just another argument on the hsbaseballweb? Why does someone always have to have THE answer when there is not even a QUESTION asked?

If all you want to do is fight, why don't you enlist in something that will send you to Iraq.

OPP

OPP,
Them are fightin' words.

It's all fungo's fault. All those well thought out posts and topics. Heck, even when he disagrees with you he's nice about it. It's enough to drive you crazy! No wonder this topic led to fighting.

quote:I couldn't have said it better:quote.... i dont see argueing, i see disscussion!!! we dont have to read if it doesn't appeal to us! my opinion!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Teacherman:
Go down the starting lineups offensively. Boston wins the head to head matchups in 4 of the 8 spots (assuming no DH lineups)./QUOTE]

Why would you exclude the DH from the comparison? Four of the seven games were scheduled to be played in an American League park (paahk). The DH was a huge advantage for Boston. It not only got Ortiz into the line-up (not to be removed for defense) but it also got Millar in there at 1st base. On paper the middle of the Cardinals line-up is certainly impressive but when you can bat Bill Mueller and Mark Bellhorn 8th and 9th....that's some line-up.

The other factor is that the Sox were fortunate to get hot at the right time. And the way they beat the Yankees gave them a lot of confidence going into the W.S.

I left the DH out because I don't know who to put in for the Cards. They would've DH'd by committee.

Clearly, Millar in the lineup swings the advantage even farther to the Sox.