NO MORE RADAR!!!!

Pitch - don't know about the radar, but I can offer this: when I went to college at age 18 I wasted two years worth of my parents money my frshman and sophomore years because I didn't even know WHY I was going to college. Everyone else seemed to know why were there, what to study, etc. I was completely lost, jumping from one thing to the next. Finally I took a year off, re-evaluated everything, then transferred and got a well-earned degree (and much of it paid for by myself) from UC-Santa Barbara. Give the kid another year or two to sort things out - I think you've raised a great kid.
KRAK

Thanks Krack! What're you doing up this early?

Gotta blame it on something.....

Teacherman....huh?

quote:

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Two things I could see happening immediately. Arm injuries would go down, and the ability to get batters out would be the #1 thing again!

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Radar guns cause arm injuries? Pitchers are not trying to get outs? What ARE they doing out there?

Which cause more arm injuries? Over use? Breaking balls? Fast balls? or Radar guns? or Lack of proper conditioning?

Pitchin inside-
I understand what you are saying. I've never been a great supporter of radar guns. I understand their purpose as an evaluative tool and to use as a help to assess whether a pitcher is tired or not, but I do think too many coaches and scouts rely on the gun when they should rely on their instincts, experience, and what they are seeing on the field. Can't tell you how many guys I've played with that could hit 90....but our opponents hit it back about 190! Gas isn't everything...I think coaches should be very careful when using the gun so they can assess how a kid is throwing and NOT how hard he can throw when he is trying to throw his arm OFF!

To me radar has a purpose in determining how hard a pitcher throws but it stops there

Many kids can throw 90 but cannot pitch

I also think that when the guns are on too many kids try to " muscle it up" to the plate and end up overthrowing and get in that habit

The guns are here to stay, but one thing is for sure.......the hitter will let you know how good your fastball is.

Amen to that Doug !!!

Hmmm ...

You assume that without a radar gun a scout can't tell the difference between an 83 mph fast ball and a 91 mph fastball.

I am no expert - but personally I think they can.

Aparent

So can you--I am sure

quote:

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Originally posted by bbscout:
The guns are here to stay, but one thing is for sure.......the hitter will let you know how good your fastball is.

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I second that amen!

Pitch,
Not only do we live in a mosquito infested hell-hole (this time of year anyway) where the mosquitos seem to wait until you just fall asleep to attack, but a raucous thunder
storm lodged itself right over our house for about an hour starting around 2a.m. -- then of course the dog went nuts because of the booming thunder (or is it Kim Jong Il playing with his experiments? One never knows), so Krack was wide awake, fired up the computer and diddled around the hSBBW until sleep came upon me again.........zzzzzzzzzzzzz

The radar gun is one of the greatest training tools there is.

If you haven't used one you won't understand. But, I guarantee, without one, you're leaving it to chance on whether you develop your throwing ability to it's potential.

Dont sell your son short hes not a horses *** but rather he decided to drink from another watering hole...YOUTH..Sounds like my older one just be patient and give guidance...hell get back on the right trail

When using a radar gun as a training tool for a kid, feedback is great.....but, as kids grow and develop you can't always know for certain how or why there has been an increase in velocity.

There are several reasons for a possible increase in velocity, such as natural physical growth, improvements in mechanics, actually resting the arm during the winter months, improvements in leg and abdominal muscle development due to weight training, a consistent long toss program, increase in flexibility, etc. Those things will lead to velocity improvent......the radar gun doesn't increase velocity; it measures velocity. I would bet anyone that a combination of the ingredients above have an enormous impact on the increase in velocity, and those increases will occur with or without feedback from a radar gun. That is undeniable.

How about the difference in velocity between yesterday and today. Or this week v last week??????

I'll bet you a milkshake that you can't tell the difference between two pitches that are 5mph apart by looking.

You can make a throw that feels wonderful and it register several mph less than another throw that also feels wonderful.

Only with the feedback of radar are you alerted to the situation. Then you can study your mechanics and determine what made the difference.

I'll win that milkshake; make it chocolate!

The radar gun is a valuable tool for a scout. There are not any scouts that can tell an 85 mph fastball from a90 mph fastball unless they are at a close distance behind home plate. If you go to a college game and are 100 ft back of home plate, you can't tell the difference.

It is a tool that lets you know one thing and one thing only.......velocity of the pitch.

There are many things that the naked eye can't judge, and when at ballgames, you can be fooled on the velocity. Inner city diamonds where you are only about 10 ft behind the catcher,. College games where you are 100 ft back. Bad lights at high school games make the pitcher appear faster. The gun has good value, but it can't record movement and deception, and the scout will have to figure that out by himself. There is a lot to a good fastball, some of which is velocity, but that is only part of it. Location, movement and deception are added in to put a grade on the fastball.

Although I believe improving your velocity should be the goal of anyone who throws 85 and below, that is not my point in this thread.

Whoever you are and whatever you throw, if you have a radar gun, you can learn what makes you throw to your velocity potential. Otherwise, you can be greatly fooled by what you think creates velocity.

If I can throw a consistent 75, and am only throwing 70 but don't know it, and it feels right, you may go for weeks and not know it.

If you are throwing 70 mph, you should start working on your hitting.

bbscout - lol

You dont need a radar gun to know that.

...but your neck will be sore, Teach....

Teacherman- This may be a sign of the end of civilization as we know it, but I actually AGREE with your post!
I'm not a radar gun fan, but I understand the value of positive feedback...and the gun can do that. However, I think coaches need to instruct kids as to WHY the gun is being used, so they don't overthrow and hurt themselves trying to hit a number their body won't let them reach.

Okay... Yes I think arm injuries would go down. As Coach Knight says, when they're out, the competitive nature comes out, and they DO overthrow! Not always, but when one guy hits 88 mph, the kid's gonna try to hit 89. It's natural! And when they live around 87, mechanics WILL suffer! (Expreience around guns, can reduce, but not eliminate it.)

Scout's right! Best fastball I've seen was low to mid 80's. But this kid could put it exactly where he wanted to, and it X'd the plate, in and down or down and away, on command!

So much more to a good fastball than velo! Put the emphasis where it belongs, and quit using the radar as a crutch. That's all I'm saying (advocating).

I'm sooo tired of hearing about velocity I could just sh!t! Learn to pitch!

By the way, my boy lived around 84, but could gas it up a few when needed. He also had decent mechanics, good movement, and changed speeds pretty well. he did get a couple of college offers, but they were too far from his girl . He's just got a terminal case of cranial hiccups (brain f4rts)!

The gun reads what it reads. Question: How easily does the pitcher reach the number on the gun? If it takes super effort, 90 mph isn't as good as an easy looking 90. These are two different pitchers!

Good scouts see the entire pitcher, the gun only provides data on one part of pitching. However, it's a very important part and I hate to see people downgrade the importance of velocity. That's fastball, breaking ball, or even changeup velocity.

People are going to get real confused if they believe a good 85 mph fastball is equal to a good 95 mph fastball. Please take the time to see how hard the top draft picks throw. Then try not to go with the guy who might be the exception to the rule. Maybe someone can recall some mid 80s guys who were drafted in the early rounds, but to be honest I can't.

This does not mean that mid 80s guys have no chance. Many are excellent college pitchers. But the title to this thread is NO MORE RADAR. I doubt the 90+ throwers or their parents would vote for no more radar.

To me radar guns causing injury is guess work at it's best. How does a pitcher ever find out how hard he can throw without finding out how hard he can throw? Hasn't every single pitcher who ever lived tried to throw a baseball as hard as he can at some point? Do you get stronger lifting only the weight that is comfortable or easy? Bad mechanics and throwing too much too often and not being ready to throw and bad conditioning are all reasons for injured arms.

The radar gun is innocent! Just my opinion, I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

Without the radar gun Maddux maybe would have been overlooked. He was far from a mid 80s pitcher.

PG,
Not sure what you were trying to get across with the last sentence. Maddux was going to be noticed with or without the gun. Other than not understanding where you were going with the last sentence, good post.

bbscout,
If you can't break 80 you work on your hitting, if you can't learn to hit the curve it's time for tennis.

CADad,

Guess what I meant was Maddux was 92 on the gun in High School. Without that kind of velocity it was unlikely he would have been a high pick in the draft. Maddux throwing mid 80s at the time might have been overlooked in the draft. Afterall, wasn't that big tall RHP that projects lots of added velocity.

Anyway it was kind of a stupid comment on my part. I doubt if a gun was needed to spot his talent. It's just the gun was the proof.

PG or anyone else,

Would you have any examples, estimates or guesses about how much "that big tall RHP that projects lots of added velocity" might increase during college?

Specific reason for my question, my oldest is a freshman RHP in college and is 6'4" tall but not muscular yet - between 170 and 180 lbs, but has broad lanky shoulders, long arms and fingers. He pitched well in HS using location and deception and a couple of good breaking pitches, pitched for varsity three years and increased from low 70s to upper 70s during HS. This fall his college coaches radared him 80-81 and said they will be working with him on strength and mechanics and will help him significantly increase his velocity in college. They hinted about him having a chance to play beyond college. He doesn't want to ask too many questions and sound like he's saying "let's talk about me!", just plans to work hard, try to earn playing time, and see what happens. But we are curious about whether you know of similarly-built pitchers who have added much velocity from age 18 on. His dad is a little shorter at 6'2", but was skinny in HS and turned out muscular and 190 lbs sometime in his 20s.

Pitchmom,
Sounds like he has added some already to his velocity in a short time. Without seeing your son's arm action, it would be hard for a coach to guess on the "upside" of your son's velocity. Size is a great asset, but if your arm action is stiff or lacks sufficient whip, strength and maturity won't help too much. If he has a real loose arm those two factors could increase it anywhere from 3-10 miles per hour depending on his development.

Pitchermom.....

In my experience a college pitcher like your son can reasonably expect to gain 1-2 mph each year in college.......some increase more and some less.......I had two pitchers who went from about 78 during their first semester in college to 90-92 by their junior/senior seasons and each signed pro contracts. I had others who only improved by a few mph in four years.

Some of that expected increase can be attibuted to natural growth, some to improved mechanics, and some to dedication to improving the condition of their bodies with regard to pitching.

I don't believe there's any formula for how much velocity a pitcher will gain in a certain amount of time. Having good size and a quick smooth arm does help.

Body, arm action, mechanics, training, natural ability, desire, etc. etc. all play a part in projecting velocity. It's guess work to be honest.

That said there have been cases that show nearly anything is possible. I didn't see Billy Wagner in HS but it's been said he was a high 70s guy. He has since thrown a 100 mph and everyone knows he's not a big guy.

PG

I wonder if Wags ever picked up a 7 oz. baseball?

Wagner is a freak! I say that in a good way. He's not even a natural lefty. This is part of a bio I found about him:

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Wagner is no stranger to physical pain. He found refuge from a difficult childhood in sports, and broke his right arm twice playing football, shattering it the second time. With his right arm in a cast, he began to throw left-handed. Today he still eats and writes with his right hand, but throws his bullets as a southpaw.

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I read he would long toss by himself...with one ball. He had a tough childhood. I believe his dad is dead, either murdered or by his own hand.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dad04:
PG

I wonder if Wags ever picked up a 7 oz. baseball?

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I don't know but I bet those rocks he threw weighed less than 5 oz.

PG or anyone else that might know


Our team has a radar gun and we use it for differant reasons than scouts do.I know that there is also a way of getting a reading on pitchers using a stopwatch and timing from release to the ball hitting the catchers glove.I am looking for this chart on the times that equate to MPH.Does anyone know where to find this?

The way the radar gun is used every game at the college my son attends is used for charting the pitchers while they are pitching in the games to chart how fast they are throwing the called pitches by the pitching coach. They also chart how well the pitchers are improving in their attempts to reach their goals that they are working toward in improveing their overall average speed.

They chart only strikes, as well as the progress of each pitcher's velocity in relation to each pitch selection.

That means that each pitcher had a record and history of his velocity improvement per each type of pitch thrown for each of his appearances.

The measurements help the pitchers to get good feedback on how effective they are managing speed variances between pitch selection...and their overall averages.

Measuring only strikes, my son is currently averaging 83 mph which is the difference between his FB which is 89 mph and and his offspeed pitches that are around 77 mph.

His goal for this year to increase his consistent average to 85mph...which means he is trying to increase his FB to 90 mph and his offspeed to 80 mph.

Currently they are working on balance and precision of each mechanical transition to maximize the efficiency and compactness of the form and explosion.

One of the things that the boys are working on is the correctness of the plant foot. There seems to be two problems that are common.

The first is that as the plant foot hits the ground it is not slightly closed to homeplate, which opens the hips prematurely, and results in loss of proper hip and shoulder rotation...commonly referred to as the problem of flying open.

And secondly, the plant foot heel hits (bangs) the ground first rather than stepping with the pad of the foot hitting the ground first.

This seems to cause the leg from reaching the proper bending angle in the leg lunge, thus stopping the body or causing a shudder effect to the lower body's proper movement.

This heel bang and shudder effect also causes the upper body to stop the proper rotation and causes the throwing arem to flatten out so that the release point is somewhat dropped.

The heel bang can also cause the the upper body to rotate prematurely and usually you will see the pitcher fall off at an angle as the knee stiffens so that the leg straightens out and causes a running hop at the end of the follow through.

So they are making sure that the plant foot is closed and the heel of the plant foot does not hit first as it is critically important to maintaining proper hip and shoulder rotation, as well as assuring that the knee bend is done properly so that the knee doesn't striaghten out and cause the pitcher to lose balance and throw over a stiff leg.

The other thing they are working on is staying behind the ball...especially pitching from the stretch. Pitchers have a tendency to get out in front of the ball because they are trying to reduce the time to release.

Jason Schmidt stays behind the ball out of the stretch but as a result of his technique takes to long to release. The key to it is to get to the "T" quickly, stay erect, head up, shoulders straight and erect until the plant foot hits.

Know a kid that has been clocked 94, he's 19 and still in HS, will probably get a GED before he gets a HS Diploma. great kid and easy to get along with, always smiling, just can't do school work, needed a private teacher yrs ago or more parental help ,but his family couldn't pay for a private teacher so he's just drifting thru.
He's just a gentle giant, lefty, about 6'3" 210, can't hit,can't run and can't think but can scare the hell out of the batters.
he threw a no-hitter and lost, walked 7 and beaned 4, he just don't know where the ball is going.
just heard the scouts are talking to him now because of his hard throwing.
shame, because of the radar gun, he will probably get signed for a little of nothing because the teams know that he will not be going to college and loves to play ball.
they will work with him a few yrs in the minors where he may be stuck for yrs.
hopefully he will get his mechanics right and be a closer on a team someday.