Zomby,
I am confused. I thought this discussion was about players that get paid to play....you know the guys who "are millionaires and don't have to work a day in their lives", not kids in high school who lack hustle.
I am going to assume we have all taught our players to hustle. They would not be where they are if they hadn't.
Just keep in mind that some who don't hustle are not necessarily lazy and spoiled.
While I was accused of making excuses for them, the example I gave was Molina. He caught 7 games in a row where the temperatures were above 103. The reality is that the majority of those games were 105 or above. Then, he gets a break for one game and then was off to several more very hot games. I have no idea how much weight he loses in a game. His value to the Cardinals is unquestioned. I just can't be mad at him for not running out a groundball. Accourding to some, that makes me a poor fan and Yadi spoiled.
We all know those players that have gained a reputation for being lazy. You'd better believe that their teammates in the dugout and clubhouse will address it. I could name at least ten players known to be lazy and they always were unliked in the clubhouse. They also were traded often. As TPM stated, the majority play hard but I'd speculate that everyone of them has to back off once in a while. We can romanticize the players of the past but they were no different.
We all know those players that have gained a reputation for being lazy. You'd better believe that their teammates in the dugout and clubhouse will address it. I could name at least ten players known to be lazy and they always were unliked in the clubhouse. They also were traded often. As TPM stated, the majority play hard but I'd speculate that everyone of them has to back off once in a while. We can romanticize the players of the past but they were no different.
Ask the Red Sox players, fans, coaches and mangement if they wished that Big Papi would dog it a little more to protect that heel.
I am sure they would be OK with it.
I am sure they would be OK with it.
quote:Originally posted by Vector:
No personal offense, but to me, that is just making excuses.
The players of old did not see themselves as to important to risk injury just by hustling. Winning was just as important to them, and some like Ty Cobb were not beyond intentionally hurting a player who got in his way. Do you think he or others back in the day would dog it for fear of possibly injuring themselves? Heck their teammates would be all over them, and if it kept up like with a Hanley Ramirez type of player, he would be receiving a blanket party.
The bottom line is that while it might make sense to rest a player so as to not exacerbate an existing injury, making excuses for them not running hard or hustling will never be acceptable.
---
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt - April 23, 1910
...LOVING the irony here.
wraggarm,
I kind of observed the same myself so glad that you put it out there.
CoachB is not giving an excuse, he is telling it like it is. And FWIW, no one knows what a player is going through on any given day. Yadi isn't always known to be a hustler, and he sure has a good excuse if he doesn't!
The Hanley saga is interesting. He definitively needed a change, and maybe a different organization will get him back on the track he should be. Two former coaches had issues with him, and who did the organization get rid of? It reminds me of the parent that lets their kids get away with so much, until finally something has to change. I don't see it all as Hanley's fault, that is just my observation.
I am not sure why there is so much negativity towards players. Seems to be a lot here lately. Even this topic was created to promote negativity. Players are spoiled, lazy, undeserving. As far as comparing it to "days of old", IMO those days are GONE. The game and players has changed but the rules remain the same.
I kind of observed the same myself so glad that you put it out there.
CoachB is not giving an excuse, he is telling it like it is. And FWIW, no one knows what a player is going through on any given day. Yadi isn't always known to be a hustler, and he sure has a good excuse if he doesn't!
The Hanley saga is interesting. He definitively needed a change, and maybe a different organization will get him back on the track he should be. Two former coaches had issues with him, and who did the organization get rid of? It reminds me of the parent that lets their kids get away with so much, until finally something has to change. I don't see it all as Hanley's fault, that is just my observation.
I am not sure why there is so much negativity towards players. Seems to be a lot here lately. Even this topic was created to promote negativity. Players are spoiled, lazy, undeserving. As far as comparing it to "days of old", IMO those days are GONE. The game and players has changed but the rules remain the same.
quote:Originally posted by wraggArm:quote:Originally posted by Vector:
No personal offense, but to me, that is just making excuses.
The players of old did not see themselves as to important to risk injury just by hustling. Winning was just as important to them, and some like Ty Cobb were not beyond intentionally hurting a player who got in his way. Do you think he or others back in the day would dog it for fear of possibly injuring themselves? Heck their teammates would be all over them, and if it kept up like with a Hanley Ramirez type of player, he would be receiving a blanket party.
The bottom line is that while it might make sense to rest a player so as to not exacerbate an existing injury, making excuses for them not running hard or hustling will never be acceptable.
---
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt - April 23, 1910
...LOVING the irony here.
You can love the perceived irony all you want. In reality you are not looking at it correctly if you understand the man who uttered those great words.
TR was not a man to preach from the sideline and was not beyond getting his hands dirty. So while his speech is directed at critics of those who are trying to accomplish a task, it is not a cover for those who do the bear minimum to get by.
I can guarantee you based on everything I know about TR, that he would never have tolerated a lack of hustle or effort. If a man gave it is all, then yes, the critic can be d-amned in his book.
However he would not want someone shielded by his words that did not give their best effort.
Vector, I believe the Irony is that you are being the critic.
Vector,
You are right about the quote - it's a great one, and I've admired it for years. Gotta say, though, I don't presume to claim I would "understand" what's in a great man's head (esp. one who I wasn't even alive to watch) nor how he would apply his thinking to this modern situation...
I couldn't say whether, since he was always willing to "get his hands dirty," in the US Calvary and politics, he also felt it meant he had license to critique any and all professions in ANY arena, including those he wasn't actually in....
I also couldn't say whether he would expect ALL catchers in the Ty Cobb era to turn in outfileder-level of hustle after catching 7 straight games in Molina-like style OR whether he would just admire Molina's work ethic behind the plate as a thing of beauty, maybe admiring Yadi's ability to “Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”
OR, maybe he would stand by what his words actually say. MAYBE he would just recognize them both as great efforts in an arena in which he was only an observer, not a doer of deeds, and just said something like, "One thing I know for certain is that for today, they are down there in that arena, and I am up here watching..."
Of course, not understanding the man, I'm only guessing based on the quote you pasted beneath your critique.
You are right about the quote - it's a great one, and I've admired it for years. Gotta say, though, I don't presume to claim I would "understand" what's in a great man's head (esp. one who I wasn't even alive to watch) nor how he would apply his thinking to this modern situation...
I couldn't say whether, since he was always willing to "get his hands dirty," in the US Calvary and politics, he also felt it meant he had license to critique any and all professions in ANY arena, including those he wasn't actually in....
I also couldn't say whether he would expect ALL catchers in the Ty Cobb era to turn in outfileder-level of hustle after catching 7 straight games in Molina-like style OR whether he would just admire Molina's work ethic behind the plate as a thing of beauty, maybe admiring Yadi's ability to “Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.”
OR, maybe he would stand by what his words actually say. MAYBE he would just recognize them both as great efforts in an arena in which he was only an observer, not a doer of deeds, and just said something like, "One thing I know for certain is that for today, they are down there in that arena, and I am up here watching..."
Of course, not understanding the man, I'm only guessing based on the quote you pasted beneath your critique.
While I do not purport to be an expect on TR, I have read enough books, seen enough documentaries, and had enough discussions with other knowledgeable people to say I know more about him than most.
That said, I cannot be certain he would feel as if my criticism of professional ballplayers not hustling would draw his scorn or praise.
But if I had to put money on it, I'd say the latter, for the aforementioned reasons in my previous post.
That said, I cannot be certain he would feel as if my criticism of professional ballplayers not hustling would draw his scorn or praise.
But if I had to put money on it, I'd say the latter, for the aforementioned reasons in my previous post.
quote:Originally posted by Vector:
While I do not purport to be an expect on TR, I have read enough books, seen enough documentaries, and had enough discussions with other knowledgeable people to say I know more about him than most.
Good enough for me, then. From now now, all of my questions re: Teddy Roosevelt get directed to the man of both magnitude AND direction. You probably know more than any other of my limited resources.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Zomby,
I am confused. I thought this discussion was about players that get paid to play....you know the guys who "are millionaires and don't have to work a day in their lives", not kids in high school who lack hustle.
I am going to assume we have all taught our players to hustle. They would not be where they are if they hadn't.
Just keep in mind that some who don't hustle are not necessarily lazy and spoiled.
True. But I suppose HS comes into it because these pro athletes learn this behavior from when their kids playing little league thru the time they play HS ball before they go off on their own.
As for the ones who don't hustle that aren't lazy and spoiled, the only other reason is their attitude that it's beneath them or it don't look cool now that they're getting paid. I just don't know. All I know is if somebody's paying me millions of dollars, never work a day in my life and play a kids game for money, I'm hustling all the time
quote:Originally posted by wraggArm:
Good enough for me, then. From now now, all of my questions re: Teddy Roosevelt get directed to the man of both magnitude AND direction. You probably know more than any other of my limited resources.
My comment was not meant to come across as condescending, just in case you interpreted it that way. Rather it was just to let you know his life was/is of particular interest to me.
Looking back at the posts since your observation, it seems we are getting way off topic. If you care to discuss TR or any other thing, please feel free to PM me.
Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:
I just don't know.
That's my point, just like Vector is making an assumption of what a man said a century ago, you are making an assumption why someone didn't do what you thought they should and why. It may not represent a spoiled attitude or laziness. I don't see why one would compare HS participation of the game to that at the pro level.
BTW, the last time I checked professional ball was a job (career possibility for a few), and it is work, hard work and a strange way of life for many. Most love it because it is their passion and what they want to do with their lives, just as we enjoy our professions. There are good days and bad days. It takes a very special person to do what it is they do.
It is a boy's game but at that level it's played on men's terms.
Again I agree there are some that don't play the game the way we think they should, but reality is that of the 750 professional players in ML, not everyone is made up of the same stuff and I wouldn't expect them to.
BTW, did anyone catch Texiera last night when he hit the HR and what he did? Does anyone know why he just stoods there?
Anyways, back to the post, how about this-- based on a few of the posters suggestions of their lack of hustle does not bother them, when a player (specifically an All-Star caliber type) hits a dinky grounder, how about he just instantly turns and walks back to the dugout? At least he wouldn't try and sell the people a load of ****.
They can all start the "I am ****ed I didn't hit a home run, therefore I will lie and tell people the reason I'm not hustling is because I'm scared to get injured" garbage. Will that make everyone feel better?
Bottom line: from little leagues to the pros and everywhere in between, you gain respectfrom coaches, teammats and fans simply by hustling... EVERY PLAY!
They can all start the "I am ****ed I didn't hit a home run, therefore I will lie and tell people the reason I'm not hustling is because I'm scared to get injured" garbage. Will that make everyone feel better?
Bottom line: from little leagues to the pros and everywhere in between, you gain respectfrom coaches, teammats and fans simply by hustling... EVERY PLAY!
quote:Originally posted by coach.miller:
If I were a MLB RF, I would try and throw EVERYONE out at first every chance I got. Teach those chumps to loaf on me.
Our 13U tournament team has thrown out a few players at first base from right field.
Given the fact that there isn't alot of physical exertion in baseball (compared to say football) there is no reason not to hustle to 1B.
quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
Given the fact that there isn't alot of physical exertion in baseball (compared to say football) there is no reason not to hustle to 1B.
I think my son and his club teammates would challange the premise that there is not much physical exertion in baseball almost every practice.
Secondly I was never in worse shape in my entire life than when I played high school football (not commenting on elite level athletes). A little ten yard run and a nice 60 second rest in between is not going to get anyone in prime physical shape...Just sayin.
quote:Originally posted by BackstopDad32:quote:Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
Given the fact that there isn't alot of physical exertion in baseball (compared to say football) there is no reason not to hustle to 1B.
I think my son and his club teammates would challange the premise that there is not much physical exertion in baseball almost every practice.
Secondly I was never in worse shape in my entire life than when I played high school football (not commenting on elite level athletes). A little ten yard run and a nice 60 second rest in between is not going to get anyone in prime physical shape...Just sayin.
Did you really just go there? I wish I played for your high school coach. I have never been in as good shape as I was when I played football in high school. I couldnt imagine being in worst shape then as I am now.
Example from our summer collegiate team:
Batter hits a super high popup right behind third base. Third baseman and shortstop converge, both standing right around the foul line. Shortstop eventually catches the ball straddling the line. Batter is still in the batters box, just looking.
Contrast how that looked with the alternative: if he sprints out of the box, he would have been approaching second when it was caught.
Had the hitter hustled to the max, he would have shown a positive thing to the scouts present, and there were indeed scouts present. As it was, he looked stupid.
At least at the college level, and everything below, hustle is the rule.
Batter hits a super high popup right behind third base. Third baseman and shortstop converge, both standing right around the foul line. Shortstop eventually catches the ball straddling the line. Batter is still in the batters box, just looking.
Contrast how that looked with the alternative: if he sprints out of the box, he would have been approaching second when it was caught.
Had the hitter hustled to the max, he would have shown a positive thing to the scouts present, and there were indeed scouts present. As it was, he looked stupid.
At least at the college level, and everything below, hustle is the rule.
quote:Given the fact that there isn't alot of physical exertion in baseball (compared to say football) there is no reason not to hustle to 1B.
There are few statments in sports that are absolute including he should always "hustle". Its a nice idea but not always pratical.
During the past several years I will admit my son didn't "hustle" to first base in many games. Does that make him a player with the wrong attitude, sense of entitlement?
Would it change your mind if you knew his coach choose not to advertise he had injuries but was still in the lineup?
for what it is worth I took a kid out of a playoff game because on a pop up he half walked jogged up the line. Happened many years ago.
I had no problem with it he accepted it no flak from anybody. Today?
I had no problem with it he accepted it no flak from anybody. Today?
Just a reminder of the OP:
quote:Originally posted by coach_10:
I watch as many MLB games as possible through out the week. One of the things that is consistent and drives me crazy is watching these guys loaf if down to first base after the hit an infield dribbler. I know the majority of those hits would result in a out if they were busting it, but sometimes (and too often) you see a runner tanking it and the fielder may bobble and boot the ball around only to get the runner out by a step. Had they busted out of the box down the line, they would have been safe.
My question is; who impresses you most with their hustle, no matter where they hit the ball?
And who hacks you off the most by the lack of hustle?
Larry Bowa was on ESPN radio earlier this morning. He said he now notices which MLB players hustle down the line. He said when he played he noticed the few who didn't.