Not tucking glove arm

For me it took repetition..do the towel drill over and over and eventually it will come naturally.

yea it took me some time too. the biggest thing is just repition and practice. Be conscious of what you are doing when throwing. there is one drill i think its call power position it could have other names but its when you rock back then throw like you would when pitching. when coming through make it a point to tuck your glove. to say the least just practice then it will become second nature.

thank you for the advice i have done the towel drill but not enough

Many coaches do not teach tucking the glove hand. They teach keeping it static over the front foot, and driving the body to the glove. I guess the end result is about the same.

If you are just dropping the glove hand and swinging it behind you (slapping the midget), try Tom House's Front Side Facilitator drill. Just put 2 or 3 pounds of ankle weights in your glove while you do the towel drill. If you drop the glove you'll know. See House's book The Pitching Edge for a better description of the drill.

I personally do not like to see my pitchers tuck and pull with the front side. It causes most pitchers to fly open and drag the arm. I teach what MTH brought up. When you pitch your glove should stay over your front foot. When your front goes down the glove goes over it, and you take your body to your glove. It will put you in a good fielding position and you will finish similar to having tucked the glove, without pulling the front side and opening too soon.

My pitching coach taught me not to tuck the glove but to keep it out there and go to it because of what hsballcoach said that it will pull ur front side open and also that it could make ur momentum stop and start going back and you want to keep everything going forward. After all, the end result is about the same but thats just how I was taught.

IMO

The thought behind pulling the glove back in is physics, equal and opposite reaction. You generate more force when these forces are in play. If you are rotating your shoulders and bringing your throwing arm forward, assuming you reached out with your glove arm, physic wants you to bring the glove back in. You want the glove to stay up around the chest for balance.

I agree with the PULL BACK view. There is no way you can stick your glove out and come to it. Impossible to rotate properly. It may appear that you are coming to it but the glove has to pull back as your throwing arm comes forward.

Pulling the glove elbow back will help increase the rotational velocity of the torso. It also makes sure the glove shoulder "clears", reducing the deceleration stress on the throwing shoulder.

If you aren't tucking your arm in you aren't getting the correct amount of torque and rotation in order to get more velocity. Like the other guys said, do the towel drill a lot and really look at your mechanics.

Tucking or pulling the glove to the chest, hip or side can cause timing problems in the form of early and/or inconsistent shoulder rotation. If the timing of the tuck/pull changes from pitch to pitch, then the release point changes from pitch to pitch and consistency deteriorates. If the shoulders open early, two things can happen. First, energy transfer up the kinetic chain is wasted and more stress is put on the arm. Second, the body spins off-line from the target early which takes away the timing required for the pitcher to delay shoulder rotation and get maximum hip and shoulder separation which is the main source of safe velocity. This pulls the release point back (and most likely up and to the side) thus affecting both consistency and movement.

Regarding torque, the way I look at it is this - if you pull the glove elbow back, then that has the effect of pulling the glove-side shoulder forward. (Think physics - for every force there is an equal and opposite force.) But that's the opposite direction you need the glove-side shoulder to rotate! So, the only way that pulling the glove back can help the glove-side shoulder rotate back is if the arm pulls early and then the momentum of the mass of the arm is used to help pull the glove-side shoulder back. But notice I just said "pulls early". The glove-side arm has to pull back early to build momentum by the time it's needed. This creates timing problems.

If someone sees a problem in my logic, please explain.

Actually the glove shoulder has to go in the opposite direction of the throwing shoulder. Ie rotate.
Your whole body is moving forward and rotating at the same time. Yes the glove looks like you are coming to it but infact it is moving back towards you chest as your shoulders rotate. It is not leaving your glove out there and comming to it. have someone hold your glove out and try throwing the ball you will find out reall quick that the glove goes back.

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Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Tucking or pulling the glove to the chest, hip or side can cause timing problems in the form of early and/or inconsistent shoulder rotation.

Regarding torque, the way I look at it is this - if you pull the glove elbow back, then that has the effect of pulling the glove-side shoulder forward. (Think physics - for every force there is an equal and opposite force.) But that's the opposite direction you need the glove-side shoulder to rotate! So, the only way that pulling the glove back can help the glove-side shoulder rotate back is if the arm pulls early and then the momentum of the mass of the arm is used to help pull the glove-side shoulder back. But notice I just said "pulls early". The glove-side arm has to pull back early to build momentum by the time it's needed. This creates timing problems.

If someone sees a problem in my logic, please explain.

First, there are many things that can mess up mechanics or throw off timing. What is the answer here? Do it right, then it won't mess up timing. And it will add velocity.

The glove shoulder will follow the elbow. The movement of the glove elbow/shoulder creates rotation about the spine. So, yes, there was a problem in your logic IMHO.

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The glove shoulder will follow the elbow.

Not necessarily. The humerus can move around in the socket without causing the entire torso to move with it.

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The movement of the glove elbow/shoulder creates rotation about the spine. So, yes, there was a problem in your logic IMHO.

Video of guys like Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Kevin Brown, etc. shows that the glove becomes almost stationary once the elbow gets to beside the hip and the elbow is roughly a foot away from the hip, out front. The front shoulder almost becomes stationary in space as the throwing side rotates around it as opposed to both rotating around the spine. So, I don't see this "force coupling" of the backward pull of the glove side any further than to bring the elbow to the hip. Then that side becomes stationary. Just what I see in the videos.

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Originally posted by dm59:

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The glove shoulder will follow the elbow.

Not necessarily. The humerus can move around in the socket without causing the entire torso to move with it.

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The movement of the glove elbow/shoulder creates rotation about the spine. So, yes, there was a problem in your logic IMHO.

Video of guys like Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Kevin Brown, etc. shows that the glove becomes almost stationary once the elbow gets to beside the hip and the elbow is roughly a foot away from the hip, out front. The front shoulder almost becomes stationary in space as the throwing side rotates around it as opposed to both rotating around the spine. So, I don't see this "force coupling" of the backward pull of the glove side any further than to bring the elbow to the hip. Then that side becomes stationary. Just what I see in the videos.

Excuse me. DONE PROPERLY, the glove shoulder will follow the elbow.

Clips of Pedro will show the elbow going behind the hip.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. It's just that, as I look at video of Pedro, Nolan Ryan, Clemens, Oswalt, Benson, Kinney, Wood, Wagner, Prior, Johnson, Smoltz, and many others, I see the same lead arm action, generally. The elbow gets to its maximum position "behind the back" or the maximum "scap loaded" position at footplant. From there, the shoulders rotate and the upper arm goes with it. There's no further movement of the humerus back, relative to the shoulders. It drops downward really. The glove stays out front until well after release. I'll send some to you if you give me your email address. One of Clemens and one of Johnson show this quite well.

It depends on how flexible the player is.To each his own...

My comments were about what I've seen in videos of the pros, not opinions. The ones I have all exhibit this lead arm action. If there are examples of pros with lead arm action that are different than what I described, I'd like to see them.

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Actually the glove shoulder has to go in the opposite direction of the throwing shoulder. Ie rotate.

That's what I said. My words were:

...if you pull the glove elbow back, then that has the effect of pulling the glove-side shoulder forward. (Think physics - for every force there is an equal and opposite force.) But that's the opposite direction you need the glove-side shoulder to rotate!

My point was that pulling the glove back has the effect of pulling the glove-side shoulder forward and that is the opposite of what you want that shoulder to do.

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Originally posted by Texan:
First, there are many things that can mess up mechanics or throw off timing. What is the answer here? Do it right, then it won't mess up timing. And it will add velocity.

Agreed. Proper timing leads to optimum energy transfer up the kinetic chain and that maximizes velocity while also protecting the arm.

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The glove shoulder will follow the elbow. The movement of the glove elbow/shoulder creates rotation about the spine.

I disagree with this. For the shoulder to both follow the elbow AND rotate on time such that no energy gets wasted, then the elbow needs to be pulled early. But that's slightly out of sequence and it does waste energy. I believe it's the sequence of actions happening below the shoulders from the ground up (specifically, the stretch shortening cycle of the core muscles) that cause shoulder rotation - or, more importantly, explosive shoulder rotation.

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Originally posted by dm59:
My comments were about what I've seen in videos of the pros, not opinions. The ones I have all exhibit this lead arm action. If there are examples of pros with lead arm action that are different than what I described, I'd like to see them.

I agree with DM59. Right after the glove turns over, there is a short period where the glove arm seems to freeze in space as the body continues forward. The arm stays roughly in this position through release point. What happens after release is irrelevent except to accomodate a safe deceleration - some pitchers (e.g. Clemens) will let the glove arm swing back at after release. Don't get confused by what happens after release.

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Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
I disagree with this. For the shoulder to both follow the elbow AND rotate on time such that no energy gets wasted, then the elbow needs to be pulled early. But that's slightly out of sequence and it does waste energy. I believe it's the sequence of actions happening below the shoulders from the ground up (specifically, the stretch shortening cycle of the core muscles) that cause shoulder rotation - or, more importantly, explosive shoulder rotation.

We're just gonna have to disagree on this one.

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Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
What happens after release is irrelevent except to accomodate a safe deceleration

Except that what happens just after release can be a reflection of what was happening just prior to release. In which case it can be an important indicator.

And accomodating a safe deceleration is hardly irrelevant. Rather important to the pitcher's long term health, actually.

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Originally posted by Texan:

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Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
What happens after release is irrelevent except to accomodate a safe deceleration

And accomodating a safe deceleration is hardly irrelevant. Rather important to the pitcher's long term health, actually.

I think that's what I said - didn't mean to downplay it and imply it's unimportant. I believe we are in agreement on this point.

Misunderstood you to be downplaying its importance. Never mind...

I'll throw in a non baseball example of a way to generate upper body power:

Look at how they teach punching power in either boxing or martial arts. They draw in there non-punching hand as they throw the punch. Since it is a technique utilized world wide, you'd think that it is the most efficient way to generate power to the punching hand. I think it allows for the core to work the most efficiently.

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Originally posted by obrady:Look at how they teach punching power in either boxing or martial arts. They draw in there non-punching hand as they throw the punch. Since it is a technique utilized world wide, you'd think that it is the most efficient way to generate power to the punching hand. I think it allows for the core to work the most efficiently.

Although many martial arts do teach this, boxing does not. Watch a boxer throw a cross. He doesn't pull back the other hand/elbow to get this force couple. If he did, he'd be looking up at all the pretty lights and wondering what truck hit him. I believe this pulling back of the elbow is really a theoretical construct. My contention is that video has shown, me at least, that it isn't happening in the pros. Not in the ones I've studied anyway. We can debate all day about the physics behind all of this but it's all academic if it ain't happening in the pros who throw 100 mph + (Randy Johnson, Billy Wagner). If we're looking for power in this pulling motion, I propose that we're barking up the wrong tree and missing what really does it.

I've always believed that there isn't one way for all. I also think a lot of this discussion is all how you look at it.

As for my boxing reference, look at a boxer who has a stance with his left slightly in front of his right, I don't think he leaves it there when he swings that big right.

Maybe our over all discription of what is happening isn't totaly acurate. All I know is that the elbow goes from out in front and in most cases up against either the side or the side of the chest. I know when I throw, I use a pulling motion.

Wow. This has turned into quite a discussion. Many have valid points. I still stand by this statement place your glove over your front foot, point your front shoulder to your target as long as possible, then finish with your back shoulder to the target. Your glove will remain over your front foot throughout, and you will never have to pull it back. Opening up too early can cause a myriad of problems from control to injury. By pulling the front side, you invite those problems. Point the front side, take your throwing hand to your target and finish with the back side pointing and you will have an efficient repeatable (new word?) delivery. Try it.

My son clearly pulls his glove back and his glove ends up over the glove side foot after the body moves fotward.
In slow motionj
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1491034941/m/7821004651/p/1

For those of you who believe the glove arm gets/should be pulled, I have a question. Please look at the following pictures and tell me if you think they look as if the pitcher has pulled his glove arm. Notice the common look that all of these pitchers exhibit. Specifically, notice that the shoulders have already rotated and are squared up to the target. Also notice the position of the glove and glove arm elbow relative to the torso. If you still think the glove arm was pulled, how did the glove arm end up in the position it's shown in these pictures?

Greg Maddux

Nolan Ryan

Randy Johnson

Roger Clemens

Pedro Martinez

This year's NL Cy Young winner Brandon Webb

They are in the position I'd expect if they are pulling the elbow back.

As I stated in my last post, we may be discribing the same mechanics, some of us think it's pulled back, some don't.

What I can say for certain in that we expect the finish to be with the glove side elbow to be close in allowing for proper rotation.

Then what is happening in this picture:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r124/4seamer08/NRstill.jpg

???

Nothing, yet, RV. The pic you show is too early for what we are discussing.

Secondly, not every pitcher pulls the elbow back.

At issue here is what is the best practice to teach young pitchers.

RT, I again watched a video of Pedro. He pulls the elbow back. You may want to watch video rather than just look at a still.

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Originally posted by Texan:
Nothing, yet, RV. The pic you show is too early for what we are discussing.

My point exactly. Still pictures no matter when they are taken don't really tell you what is happening. You don't know what happened or how it happened to get to the certain point where the snap shot is taken.

Much better to use video.

I am the first to admit I'm not a pitching "guy". When my son was 12 he played with Clemen's son. Roger talked about pulling with his glove side when he was working with my son.

When my kid was older one of his pitching coaches showed video of Roger showing he was not pulling his front side.

Both seem to be true. The body goes to the glove, but the glove is not a limp rag in front. As rotation occurs, it seems the front side has a play and does not drag the backside. I guess what is important in all of this is that I know Clemens believes he pulls the front side, he told me as much.

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Originally posted by Texan:
Secondly, not every pitcher pulls the elbow back.

Agreed - no absolute here.

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At issue here is what is the best practice to teach young pitchers.

Excellent perspective! Definitely agree.

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RT, I again watched a video of Pedro. He pulls the elbow back. You may want to watch video rather than just look at a still.

The reason I posted the still pictures was to show pitchers whose shoulders have already rotated yet their glove is out front and their glove elbow is still slightly in front of their torso. To me, that's not the sign of a glove that's been pulled. In other words, the pitchers wouldn't have pulled their glove back and then extended it forward to the position shown in the pictures. Maybe that was a half-baked idea.

Any way, I went back and watched some more video and what I see is this:
o After hand break, glove side arm extends forward with the elbow raised and pointing somewhere near target while the throwing arm extends back and does its thing.
o The glove arm is either extended at the elbow for some pitchers or it is bent back for other pitchers. If it is bent back, then the glove quickly sweeps out to an extended arm position.
o As the shoulders start to rotate, scap loading occurs which tends to pull the glove arm back but it's the arm and shoulder complex moving as a unit - it's not a pull of the elbow. The elbow remains to the side of the shoulder.
o As the shoulders rotate, the glove elbow drops down as the glove turns over to a palm up position. But the glove elbow continues to stay at the side of the shoulder; they continue to move as a unit until they stop.
o Going into full external rotation of the throwing arm, the torso goes into a position of extension. The low back is arched and the head and shoulders are stacked upright. Once the arm snaps forward from external rotation, the low back releases and the torso goes into forward flexion. This quick forward motion contributes to the appearance that the glove is pulling back. But it's really an acceleration of the torso forward.
o After release, the glove may be allowed to swing back but that's irrelevent to this discussion.

When you watch video, select a side view and step through frame by frame noticing against the background the furthest forward position the glove reaches. Then notice if the glove ever moves rearward from that point up to release. I generally don't see it happening.

Of course, the ramification of all this is that if the glove elbow moves together with the shoulder complex, then it can't be a source of shoulder rotation.

Rt that is why I posted my son's video. It is in slow motion and you can clearly see how the glove extends and moves back to around the arm pit.
Having bee n trained from an early age by ML coaches/scouts this was the prefered motion. You have to bring your glove back as the shoulders rotate. Since the objective of the delivery is to control the body this is required to keep a smooth delivery and aproper finish. The glove drops down only to set up your defensive fielding position well after the ball is released.

What I see in the video of your son is this:

o He extends the glove arm forward with glove pointed at target.
o Next he tucks the glove under his arm. But his elbow does not pull back. In fact, it continues to move forward.
o As his shoulders start to rotate, his elbow drops as his glove turns over. His torso continues to move to the glove. (The angle of the video does hide his glove elbow at this point but the glove itself is still visible.)
o After release point and during follow through, he lets the glove swing back. That's the only time the glove moves back.

Must just be me - I don't see the pull.