I am not sure I call it a pull either but it is not a "leaving the glove out front". I have never considered it a pull but a leverage position allowing him to load up with both arms extended. The shoulders actually pull the glove arm back to facilitate rotation torque.
If you could examine it magnified and inlower speed you will see the glove does go backwards and that the glove ends up over the front foot eventually as the body moved forward as his throwing arm finishes down past his chins.
I don't know if this helps. You can really see the torque from tucking the glove and leverage generated.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1491034941/...491031361#6491031361
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1491034941/...491031361#6491031361
The above link you can save to your desk top and enlarge the video to see the glove tucking way back.
If you put your mose pointer over the picture it will allow you to save it. Open it up and enlarge the area around the arm.
If you put your mose pointer over the picture it will allow you to save it. Open it up and enlarge the area around the arm.
As I look at video of MLB pitchers from the side and I note the position of the glove relative to an element in the background, it gets to a point where it remains in that same position for a good 10 - 13 frames in a 30 fps clip.
Secondly, there is only so far I can pull my elbow back. I can't go any farther. Now, I'm sure flexibility differences would make some be able to go farther than I can. This typically seems to happen just as the shoulders begin to turn. It can't go back any further, relative to the body. The elbow and shoulder go together from this point on. The elbow adducts and drops down to the side but it just can't go back further, relative to the body.
This is common in every clip I have, including Pedro.
BHD, this happens with your son also.
Secondly, there is only so far I can pull my elbow back. I can't go any farther. Now, I'm sure flexibility differences would make some be able to go farther than I can. This typically seems to happen just as the shoulders begin to turn. It can't go back any further, relative to the body. The elbow and shoulder go together from this point on. The elbow adducts and drops down to the side but it just can't go back further, relative to the body.
This is common in every clip I have, including Pedro.
BHD, this happens with your son also.
Dm59 I actually magnified , slowed the video down and marked the forward spot at full load and the glove moved backwards and came forward as he fininshed.
I have to say that I have seen the glove pull done and done successfully. But I still feel that more harm than good can result. It is a constant goal to make sure that a pitcher stays closed as long as they can to achieve maximum control and velocity. I have had a lot of success with helping pitchers separate and keep the glove over the front foot. We end in a strong finish and it aids in our control. Can it be done either way? You bet. But if you go out and try to pull your glove back and do not do it just right, you are going to place unnecessary strain on the rotator cuff of the pitching arm. I see more pitchers that keep the glove over the front foot than I do that pull the glove back.
i think the glove tuck keeps you in control of your finish. My son's workout partner in the winter just made the Prirates 40 man roster. along with Zack Duke. david davison worked on my son's mechanics and told him to keep the glove tight to his body and that it creates leverage and has to move inorder to create torque. They did the towel drill together and he is a perfectionist. I think you have to realize the pull if you have to call it that is hard to detect because the body is moving forward. To me if you leave the glove out front and don't use it as counter leverage you can not throw hard.
BHD
Look at video of pros like Clemens, Ryan, Wagner, Johnson, etc. I can email you some illustrative ones if you send me your address (maybe it's in your profile but I haven't looked). The humerus gets to maximum scap load at shoulder height and around footplant. From there, the elbow cannot be pulled back any more. The rotation that happens from there on is as a unit, meaning the shoulders and humerus. The humerus drops and "tucks" in beside the ribs but the elbow goes no further back. Now, if you said that the mental cue is to pull the front shoulder back, I might have to really wrap my head around that one and you might convince me but I doubt it. I think there are other forces at work here. I also think "tucking the glove" would be more accurate as a description than pulling the elbow back (a la martial arts).
Look at video of pros like Clemens, Ryan, Wagner, Johnson, etc. I can email you some illustrative ones if you send me your address (maybe it's in your profile but I haven't looked). The humerus gets to maximum scap load at shoulder height and around footplant. From there, the elbow cannot be pulled back any more. The rotation that happens from there on is as a unit, meaning the shoulders and humerus. The humerus drops and "tucks" in beside the ribs but the elbow goes no further back. Now, if you said that the mental cue is to pull the front shoulder back, I might have to really wrap my head around that one and you might convince me but I doubt it. I think there are other forces at work here. I also think "tucking the glove" would be more accurate as a description than pulling the elbow back (a la martial arts).
This is what I said that the shoulders rotate and the glove goes back and i also said I am not sold on the pull idea nor the body goes to the glove. The original post was about tucking and that is what you have to learn. The idea of tucking means your glove has to go back to the arm pit area in order to leverage your throw. I think if you tried to hold your glove out you would have a tough time maintaining balance and leverage.
the throwing motion is a smooth controlled motion and tucking gived you the balance and leverage. I have never thought there was a hard pull back but that it does move back for the reasons I stated.
In my son's videos you can see he drops his glove after delivery as p[ointed out to maintain the balance.
So really I am not in either camp but i know my son would probably say he pulls back because most Mlb guys teach that.
the throwing motion is a smooth controlled motion and tucking gived you the balance and leverage. I have never thought there was a hard pull back but that it does move back for the reasons I stated.
In my son's videos you can see he drops his glove after delivery as p[ointed out to maintain the balance.
So really I am not in either camp but i know my son would probably say he pulls back because most Mlb guys teach that.
BHD
I guess we're not so far apart on this.
I guess we're not so far apart on this.
My problem is that I just don't see it in numerous videos of pros. I'm going to guess that this is a matter of convention with those guys. I can't imagine them still saying that after looking at the clips I've seen.quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
... my son would probably say he pulls back because most Mlb guys teach that.
My son's 1st MLB scout that taught him mechanics was a guy named Jim Ridley. he was the head pitching scout for the Jays. I video taped the sessions and it was a total break down of the pitching motion. each step was segregated and repeated over and over until it was perfected. I remember the part where the glove tuck was dealt with and he said you pulled it back and tucked it near your arm pit.
Where the issue seems merky is that it is not a pull in the sense of pulling on some thing but rather a way of getting your consistency in the throwing motion. It sets up the rotation. Many young pitchers flail their gloves all over the place. i think that some coaches use the go to the glove concept to teach young pitchers but to me it is not a good concept. You do end up with your glove near or over the front foot but it is because the body moves forwar if you finish properly. You chest should be roughly over the glove side leg and almost parallel to it. One poster noted my sons glove drops at the end and that is to counterbalance his low finsih and to bring the glove around to his fielding position.
Many MLB power pichers do not finish properly and are out of position after finishing.
Where the issue seems merky is that it is not a pull in the sense of pulling on some thing but rather a way of getting your consistency in the throwing motion. It sets up the rotation. Many young pitchers flail their gloves all over the place. i think that some coaches use the go to the glove concept to teach young pitchers but to me it is not a good concept. You do end up with your glove near or over the front foot but it is because the body moves forwar if you finish properly. You chest should be roughly over the glove side leg and almost parallel to it. One poster noted my sons glove drops at the end and that is to counterbalance his low finsih and to bring the glove around to his fielding position.
Many MLB power pichers do not finish properly and are out of position after finishing.
Shep
Nice photo. This shows me that the glove ends up tucked in. It does NOT show me that it was actively pulled to enhance rotation. Actually, it shows quite the opposite with regards to the elbow. Where is it? Beside the ribs, no doubt. Not pulled back.
Nice photo. This shows me that the glove ends up tucked in. It does NOT show me that it was actively pulled to enhance rotation. Actually, it shows quite the opposite with regards to the elbow. Where is it? Beside the ribs, no doubt. Not pulled back.
I've seen frame by frame analysis of Clemens, Johnson, maddox. Body came to the glove. Once the ball was released did the torso swing, move whatever.
dazed
I could even add many more to your list.
I could even add many more to your list.
I think this discussion is about simmantics. If you are expecting the elbow to stick out the back it dosen't. When your shoulders rotate the glove side arm elbow and glove move back with the shoulfer. It is not a real pull. I iis a pointless discussion and some coaches use the concept to get the pitcher to move forward and stay closed.
Tucking is by definiting moving the glove in to the arm pit/rib area to create shoulder rotation. At full load the elbows are high and the glove elbow drops in close to the body. The elbow does not go behind the glove side shoulder.
The concept of coming to the glove is to keep you closed because it appears that is what you do as the body moves forward.
Tucking is by definiting moving the glove in to the arm pit/rib area to create shoulder rotation. At full load the elbows are high and the glove elbow drops in close to the body. The elbow does not go behind the glove side shoulder.
The concept of coming to the glove is to keep you closed because it appears that is what you do as the body moves forward.
I would also like to point out that the post was titled not tucking the glove. To me this means the glove is out of control. Possibly dropping down to get the leverage for the rotation. The coach wants it tucked so that the glove arm is under control not flailing around.
BHD
I can buy the "tuck" talk. It was the pulling for rotation enhancement that I had difficulties with. Good thread though, eh? (How's that for Canadian, eh?)
I can buy the "tuck" talk. It was the pulling for rotation enhancement that I had difficulties with. Good thread though, eh? (How's that for Canadian, eh?)
Pretty good.
I went to Dal in Halifax for 4 years.
I went to Dal in Halifax for 4 years.
Well, you can't be all bad then.quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:I went to Dal in Halifax for 4 years.
Am I the only one who can't load these pics?
I can't get them either...peace Shep
