Notre Dame Prospects Camp

"Any showcase is going to charge what the market will bear. Headfirst is owned/operated by a Stanford grad, I would bet he has figured this out long ago. I don't feel anyone's entry fee into that event is "subsidized" in any way by the volume of kids there. In fact, the higher the demand for their product, the more camps they will try to host...that is business 101."

Why don't showcases publicize the number or percentage of attendees who actually end up playing at a program where they were seen at the showcase....or playing in college at all?  Where is the consumer QA part of this? Are you saying that if the attendance were 50% less, your cost would be the same and the profit margins the same for the showcase?  I don't think that would be true.  Camps and showcases are certainly responding to demand but the demand, in my view, is artificially driven by parents with $$$$$ and with rose colored views.

I have seen this site transition from threads which started about the Stanford Camp in November or the prior year with another thread in the weeks before about everyone attending (and those disappointed they did not get it.)  I have no problem with assessment of Camps.

I have also heard and read  the angst flowing from posts of parents feeling  a college coach didn't "appreciate" their son.

I am not sure I agree that when we introduce dollars spent between the above options it will lead to objective, verifiable and helpful perspectives.

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

Thanks for the question.  From the standpoint of a position player and in regards specifically to defensive work, absolutely I think a high school player could learn plenty from a college or pro coach over the course of a few days. 

3and2Fastball posted:

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

Thanks for the question.  From the standpoint of a position player and in regards specifically to defensive work, absolutely I think a high school player could learn plenty from a college or pro coach over the course of a few days. 

 

Fair enough. Defensive work I can see. Tough to see a pitching coach or hitting coach one time and make significant progress, IMHO.

While on the subject of camps, one thing I liked about the Tops 96 (now UA) camps is that the price was not uniform across locations. The prices varied depending on how many coaches (schools) were in attendance along with who was there (D1/D2?D3/conferences represented/geographic locations of schools distant from location, etc). And if you were looking into BC or Pitt, coaches were not only present but organized many of their events. Again, go where the coaches are of the schools you are vetting.

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

Thanks for the question.  From the standpoint of a position player and in regards specifically to defensive work, absolutely I think a high school player could learn plenty from a college or pro coach over the course of a few days. 

 

Fair enough. Defensive work I can see. Tough to see a pitching coach or hitting coach one time and make significant progress, IMHO.

Strongly agree re pitching or hitting, although if a coach talked about the mental approach to pitching or hitting that could be helpful.  Strategies of working a count etc... Mechanics not so much.  My particular Kid plays multiple defensive positions and there are all sorts of nuances to each of them that he enjoys learning about.  And trust me he has a lot to learn!

infielddad posted:

"Any showcase is going to charge what the market will bear. Headfirst is owned/operated by a Stanford grad, I would bet he has figured this out long ago. I don't feel anyone's entry fee into that event is "subsidized" in any way by the volume of kids there. In fact, the higher the demand for their product, the more camps they will try to host...that is business 101."

Why don't showcases publicize the number or percentage of attendees who actually end up playing at a program where they were seen at the showcase....or playing in college at all?  Where is the consumer QA part of this? Are you saying that if the attendance were 50% less, your cost would be the same and the profit margins the same for the showcase?  I don't think that would be true.  Camps and showcases are certainly responding to demand but the demand, in my view, is artificially driven by parents with $$$$$ and with rose colored views.

I have seen this site transition from threads which started about the Stanford Camp in November or the prior year with another thread in the weeks before about everyone attending (and those disappointed they did not get it.)  I have no problem with assessment of Camps.

I have also heard and read  the angst flowing from posts of parents feeling  a college coach didn't "appreciate" their son.

I am not sure I agree that when we introduce dollars spent between the above options it will lead to objective, verifiable and helpful perspectives.

 

infield dad

Perfect Game sure does that quantification, doesn't it? Or does it?

i never spoke about profit margins, you did. You seem to think the cost of the camp is artificially low based on inflated attendance due to lower-talented kids attending due to parents who can write a check. Isn't that the case with all showcases and camps, that prettt much all of them are open registration save a few PG events and perhaps some others like Area Code?  What I am contending is the entry fee is based upon market conditions, such as supply and demand. Pricing is one of the toughest things to get right. Of course their margins would be lower if the camps were smaller. But that doesn't mean more well-qualified players would be attending, it just means those who click the mouse fast are getting in.

I think a coach should show appreciation to every kid/parent who goes to their camps, that is called respect and it goes es both ways, Infield!

infielddad posted:

 

 

I have seen this site transition from threads which started about the Stanford Camp in November or the prior year with another thread in the weeks before about everyone attending (and those disappointed they did not get it.)  I have no problem with assessment of Camps.

 

For what it is worth, I think they should do this. But it sure wouldn't be good for their business

Not sure how this swerved to respect and I know I never said that should not be part of a camp. On that aspect we agree as to the player.

We did not attend camps with our son so I don't have an expectation on the  parent side 

I've said it before in other threads, but it bears repeating.

College camps exist because of the difference between what the camps sell and what the parents think they're buying.

College camps sell high priced, short-term, group instruction.

Parents think they're buying exposure to recruiting decision makers.

Coaches are aware of this disconnect, so their marketing materials play up the number of camp alumni who made their rosters. But numbers can mislead because a lot of players who are already being recruited attend a camp anyway. The number of "cinderella kid" campers who show up unknown and steal the show is vanishingly small. For every story of a player whose camp experience led to an offer or roster spot, there are dozens of campers who leave unhappy because they feel they weren't watched closely enough by the recruiters.

No college coach whose job security depends on finding talent will make camps a significant part of his recruiting strategy because the odds are prohibitively against enough talent randomly showing up from their email and direct mail advertising. Coaches will continue to do the majority of their recruiting at events where talent shows up in concentrations that make it worth their effort to attend.

Not glamorous by any stretch but I nominate Swamp's post as a golden.  This is a very clear and accurate depiction of what college camps are and how coaches view them and should be another piece of required reading for those entering the recruiting process.

2019 posed a good question earlier in the thread that deserves more attention (and probably it's own topic).  Some folks here have stated that they go to these camps for the instruction.  How much can you get from a one or two day camp with a large group format that typically stretches across ages and ability levels?  Well, I think it is typical to pick up one or two tips that can be gems but I think it is safe to say that one would get far more bang for the buck by putting that money toward private or small group focused instruction.  

I think these camps can be good for younger players (roughly pre-15) for the excitement factor - experiencing the school facilities, getting a bit of instruction from the college players and taking in those few gems but once a player has reached the point where it's time for a recruiting plan, look elsewhere.  The exception would be if there is active recruiting discussion with a school and they want to use the camp as an opportunity for another look.  

BTW, in making this statement, I am now advocating taking money directly out of my son's pockets.  Oops, sorry son.  

Swampboy posted:

I've said it before in other threads, but it bears repeating.

College camps exist because of the difference between what the camps sell and what the parents think they're buying.

College camps sell high priced, short-term, group instruction.

Parents think they're buying exposure to recruiting decision makers.

Coaches are aware of this disconnect, so their marketing materials play up the number of camp alumni who made their rosters. But numbers can mislead because a lot of players who are already being recruited attend a camp anyway. The number of "cinderella kid" campers who show up unknown and steal the show is vanishingly small. For every story of a player whose camp experience led to an offer or roster spot, there are dozens of campers who leave unhappy because they feel they weren't watched closely enough by the recruiters.

No college coach whose job security depends on finding talent will make camps a significant part of his recruiting strategy because the odds are prohibitively against enough talent randomly showing up from their email and direct mail advertising. Coaches will continue to do the majority of their recruiting at events where talent shows up in concentrations that make it worth their effort to attend.

 

Thanks for posting that, I couldnt.

Personal experience:

Son is 2015 RHP; son hit 90MPH (JUGS gun) for first time in 06/2013. went to camp at prominent Tx D1 in 08/2013. Son faced 8 batters. K'd the 1st four. walked the 5th but actually was a swinging K. next batter hit into DP. walked the 7th. K'd the 8th. Son of family friend played on this D1 team. He came by after a few minutes and spoke to me in the grandstand and told me that HC was impressed and that son did well.  I have no idea of son's velocity at this camp. Never heard or had contact from HC (or anyone else) as result from camp. 

Fast forward to June, 2014.   HC of same D1 made a special trip just to see son pitch.  Briefly spoke to HC. Acted like he had no idea who son was before the 30-40 days prior to see him pitch and definitely never mentioned, etc son being at his camp 10 months prior. 

I believe this may have been the only camp son went to. Not sure he got much of any instructions and he sure did not get any recruitment as a result of this camp.

This is just my perspective from going through a late-developing recruiting experience with my 2017 in the past year.  He became a 90/30 kid last summer right before his senior year, but was up to that point a very good hitter who pitched on the side.  Was a good pitcher, but velo came late in the process.  So even though he got a ton of looks last summer as his velo numbers got posted, he had a bad outing against a team full of kids who played in the PG event a few nights ago in front of a ton of schools and that seemed to cool things off.  So, at the end of the summer he had no offers and was somewhat disillusioned after so many "name" schools showed brief interest.

So we set a plan to identify schools he was most interested in and contacted them.  Went directly to the head coach when possible.  They all asked to see him at their camp so they could evaluate him in person.  We set up two in the fall and two in January.  Each time, when he showed up, he was greated by one or more coaches at the registration table.  To me, that was the key.  From those four camps, he got 3 offers and a walk-on invite.  

I now have a 2020 coming up, and I plan to do the same with him, only start it earlier.  He won't attend a camp where he is not expressly invited via some direct interaction with a coach.  My 2020 is getting a ton of email right now as many are I'm sure.  But we're going to pick schools where we think he has a reasonable chance to fit in and whose academic profile fits his needs. The key for me is being honest about my kid's abilities.  He won't be going to my alma mater Vandy's camp, because he's not that kid.  But we have a good feel where he would fit, so that's where we'll focus.  When we get a school to bite, then we'll get him to that camp.  He played in 6 PG events this past summer, so he has the advantage of getting that exposure already, so want to make that clarification.  The camp strategy is in addition to the PG events, which is important to develop a verifiable track record schools can research.

SSBuckeye posted:

This is just my perspective from going through a late-developing recruiting experience with my 2017 in the past year.  He became a 90/30 kid last summer right before his senior year, but was up to that point a very good hitter who pitched on the side.  Was a good pitcher, but velo came late in the process.  So even though he got a ton of looks last summer as his velo numbers got posted, he had a bad outing against a team full of kids who played in the PG event a few nights ago in front of a ton of schools and that seemed to cool things off.  So, at the end of the summer he had no offers and was somewhat disillusioned after so many "name" schools showed brief interest.

So we set a plan to identify schools he was most interested in and contacted them.  Went directly to the head coach when possible.  They all asked to see him at their camp so they could evaluate him in person.  We set up two in the fall and two in January.  Each time, when he showed up, he was greated by one or more coaches at the registration table.  To me, that was the key.  From those four camps, he got 3 offers and a walk-on invite.  

I now have a 2020 coming up, and I plan to do the same with him, only start it earlier.  He won't attend a camp where he is not expressly invited via some direct interaction with a coach.  My 2020 is getting a ton of email right now as many are I'm sure.  But we're going to pick schools where we think he has a reasonable chance to fit in and whose academic profile fits his needs. The key for me is being honest about my kid's abilities.  He won't be going to my alma mater Vandy's camp, because he's not that kid.  But we have a good feel where he would fit, so that's where we'll focus.  When we get a school to bite, then we'll get him to that camp.  He played in 6 PG events this past summer, so he has the advantage of getting that exposure already, so want to make that clarification.  The camp strategy is in addition to the PG events, which is important to develop a verifiable track record schools can research.

Echo this assessment.  I think if you have been in contact with coaches who have not been able to see you play in person but have seen video etc and there is "interest", going to their camp can be very beneficial.  Son has done 3 camps this summer where he was known to the coaching staff and the reception by the coaches  has been outstanding.  Use the opportunity to get in front of vetted schools to your advantage, but don't expect to be "discovered" randomly as one of 200 kids in attendance.  One of many tools, just make sure that coaches know you are coming and that you have been in touch with them previously and are a potential match for their school.