Notre Dame Prospects Camp

real green posted:

Just for poops and giggles.  What do you think it's like for the college coaches that run these camps?  Ask yourself this question.  Will your son stand out in a crowd of 100 good HS varsity players?  Will it be obvious that he is the best player on the field?  If you can't answer that question confidently with a loud YES than the chances that he gets much of any attention at a college camp is very slim.  That is the quality of player a top D1 is looking for.  

 

Top D1 programs don't use their camps for recruiting. They use them to raise money for the asst coaches who often are not very well paid.  The more successful the D1 program, the more this is true - generally speaking.  Some mid-majors recruit from their camps a little bit.  But if you have not had prior contact from the coaches, and they have not personally asked you to attend, it is very unlikely that you will be noticed - no matter what you do. The only exception would be if you put up an eye popping measurable (like running a 6.3 sixty or throwing 95  - which may sound absurd but I saw a kid throw 95 from the OF at a showcase in Texas last weekend, so it happens)  A good rule of thumb is to look at the price of the camp.  The cheaper the price the more likely they are to be doing some recruiting.  

Been thinking about this subject broadly speaking for awhile now (various parties trying to take $ from families interested in their son's / daughter's sports).  I will try it out here.  This will come off too strong as I mostly lean the other way politically.  But youth sports (especially baseball) seem like the Wild Wild West for many families.  I see families at various events and it seems like they must have spent Junior's entire college fund pursuing a baseball dream, and it makes you wonder.  To each his own, I usually say, but try this out:

1.  Many laws exist to protect the little guy consumers, investors, etc.  The idea is not to protect the smart, big guy with the power. But, to protect the little guy who might need some extra protection from the government.  Think SEC, CFPB, FTC, many many ...

2.  In each case, you could make the argument that the laws are unnecessary because "they should have known better; bc I knew better."  Subprime mortgages anyone?

3.  Youth sports, and especially baseball, is full of opportunity take advantage of the little guy.  Are resources links HSBW available to help them figure these things out?  Yes.  But did each of us with our oldest son want to believe in all the messages we were receiving from travel coaches, instructors, college camps, etc?  Answer also is yes, if you're honest and your son is not stud/Top 500.

4.  Don't like slander and someone posting on a public forum when they have a personal grudge or story.  But short of that, one could make the argument that it's helpful to call these things out in order to help the next group that comes along.  We didn't go to a ND camp, but if you've been receiving these emails for the last 3 years, they definitely are intended to make the recipient think that ND is interested in your player and he should attend.  Many other college coaches try and do the same, and if you find a few honest ones, they will even admit that.  Many of these coaches absolutely are trying to send that message and lure gullible people to their camp.

5.  So, who needs protected?  The big college coach from the tough bloggers?  Or the little guy parents that want to believe it's all true?

6.  Btw, in this case, we are talking about the Head Coach at Notre Dame.  Spend 5 minutes on any blog after a loss in football, and maybe Brian Kelly thinks the baseball coach has it great!  In my opinion, if he really does conduct himself this way, I have no problem with him getting called out in a blog if it helps the next 10 little guy families.

real green posted:

Just for poops and giggles.  What do you think it's like for the college coaches that run these camps?  Ask yourself this question.  Will your son stand out in a crowd of 100 good HS varsity players?  Will it be obvious that he is the best player on the field?  If you can't answer that question confidently with a loud YES than the chances that he gets much of any attention at a college camp is very slim.  That is the quality of player a top D1 is looking for.  

 

Real Green and Infield Dad,

Look, I get it. Don't hate the players, hate the game. The particular camp we are at today is a shining example of what you talk about as far as standing out. Only one kid did, glaringly. This kid was launching BOMBS during BP. Not driving the ball to the fence, I am talking 450' shots into the deepest park of the park. Huge kid, will be interesting to see how that plays out against live pitching tomorrow. How this kid isn't already committed somewhere is a mystery to me. Probably because he doesn't hit like that versus live pitching I reckon.

I guess we are willing "victims" in this, admittedly (I won't be any longer, however I would still recommend events like Headfirst). However if you look at the college hosted camp fees (most are now $350 for a 2-day camp) I would hope these coaches would want to give these kids more than the bare minimum. Our camp today started at 9am. Coach spoke for 15 minutes, 15-20 minutes for stretching and warm ups, then splitting into different rotation groups. Let's assume kids were in their rotation groups at 9:45am. They went through 60-yard dash, infield/outfield drill showcase, and catcher throw downs, then did about 30 minutes of fielding drills until 12pm. ELAPSED TIME 2 hours 15 minutes. Lunch for 45 minutes. Picked back up at 12:45pm with BP and bunting/baserunning/hitting in cages until 3:30pm. Elapsed time 2 hours 45 minutes. Total time of instruction/observation for day #1 is 5 hours total. Tomorrow the boys play 1 game, have no idea how long the game will be. $350 gets you this. Sorry, I just don't think that is fair to the kids in general. This is, in my son's vernacular, "weak sauce."

Oh, HC gave opening remarks, poked his head into the camp 2-3 times and was there when it closed for the day. Not on the field much to look at players, give instruction. 

Also, just to clarify, I am not at a Notre Dame camp and haven't named the school or coach.

Edit: I think these college coaches are probably having a good laugh. Recruits come to their campus, pay them to evaluate them. That is having your cake and eating it too. I don't know if this model saves $$$ for the programs that ends up helping more players (typically fund volunteer assistant coaches), or if programs would really suffer without it...

I will reiterate my apology from five hours ago. My comments about the AD, head football coach, and head baseball coach are inappropriate here. I agree 100% with infielddad. 

As a Notre Dame alum, I allowed my frustrations to be communicated here and this is not the web site for that.  

Furthermore, my son's reasons for not accepting an offer to play baseball at Notre Dame are totally his own and he will speak for himself. 

My sincerest apologies to all. 

adbono posted:

.  Some mid-majors recruit from their camps a little bit.  But if you have not had prior contact from the coaches, and they have not personally asked you to attend, it is very unlikely that you will be noticed - no matter what you do.

Can vouch for this with my 2015. Best $75 spent on 3 hour fielding clinic held by chief decision maker with program.  School was following son's progress and this camp turned him from prospect to HIGH follow.  Son stood out. with glove and quickness and coach saw that he could take instruction. He would be offered and commit 5 months later.

SDR,

I  love the players and the game. I especially love the players as they move up in the game,  encounter the new challenges which they confront and to which they  adjust and succeed. The better they play the game, the more I love the game they play.

Having had a son coach at both the D3 and D1 levels, I also have a healthy (or unhealthy depending on viewpoints) amount of perspective which most on the way up do not.

Several years ago, one of the very best HS coaches in CA (and the nation) took the time to post on this site and on a local board.  His perspective, several years ago, was the $$$$ cycle we now see in "recruiting" would happen unless parents acted differently.

Frankly, there is no camp or showcase which does not "take" $$$$ from some percentage of those attending, if the expectations are getting that exposure toward being recruited. Perhaps, in the mix, are travel teams and coaches and programs which "feed" the "you can play."

In my view, far too many pay too many $$$$$$ on being seen instead of developing the skills to eventually be seen.  Disappointment is a natural result.  This has largely turned into a demand and supply business. How many now post on this site about showcasing in 8th grade and get "rationalized" thoughts on do it if you can afford it for the "experience," or "bonding" or "whatever?"

If I ran a travel team, showcase or college camp, why wouldn't I "take" those $$$$$?

Headfirst, for all those advocating in favor of it, is one example.  If 10 people on this site advocate how great it was "for their son," I would bet 50 people read it, believe it applies to their son and plunk down $1000 plus travel, hotel, etc. without ever realizing their son is not your son in terms of ability. And so, the world turns....

SanDiegoRealist posted:

real green posted:

Just for poops and giggles.  What do you think it's like for the college coaches that run these camps?  Ask yourself this question.  Will your son stand out in a crowd of 100 good HS varsity players?  Will it be obvious that he is the best player on the field?  If you can't answer that question confidently with a loud YES than the chances that he gets much of any attention at a college camp is very slim.  That is the quality of player a top D1 is looking for.  

 

Real Green and Infield Dad,

Look, I get it. Don't hate the players, hate the game. The particular camp we are at today is a shining example of what you talk about as far as standing out. Only one kid did, glaringly. This kid was launching BOMBS during BP. Not driving the ball to the fence, I am talking 450' shots into the deepest park of the park. Huge kid, will be interesting to see how that plays out against live pitching tomorrow. How this kid isn't already committed somewhere is a mystery to me. Probably because he doesn't hit like that versus live pitching I reckon.

I guess we are willing "victims" in this, admittedly (I won't be any longer, however I would still recommend events like Headfirst). However if you look at the college hosted camp fees (most are now $350 for a 2-day camp) I would hope these coaches would want to give these kids more than the bare minimum. Our camp today started at 9am. Coach spoke for 15 minutes, 15-20 minutes for stretching and warm ups, then splitting into different rotation groups. Let's assume kids were in their rotation groups at 9:45am. They went through 60-yard dash, infield/outfield drill showcase, and catcher throw downs, then did about 30 minutes of fielding drills until 12pm. ELAPSED TIME 2 hours 15 minutes. Lunch for 45 minutes. Picked back up at 12:45pm with BP and bunting/baserunning/hitting in cages until 3:30pm. Elapsed time 2 hours 45 minutes. Total time of instruction/observation for day #1 is 5 hours total. Tomorrow the boys play 1 game, have no idea how long the game will be. $350 gets you this. Sorry, I just don't think that is fair to the kids in general. This is, in my son's vernacular, "weak sauce."

Oh, HC gave opening remarks, poked his head into the camp 2-3 times and was there when it closed for the day. Not on the field much to look at players, give instruction. 

Also, just to clarify, I am not at a Notre Dame camp and haven't named the school or coach.

Edit: I think these college coaches are probably having a good laugh. Recruits come to their campus, pay them to evaluate them. That is having your cake and eating it too. I don't know if this model saves $$$ for the programs that ends up helping more players (typically fund volunteer assistant coaches), or if programs would really suffer without it...

I was just coming to your defense because no where did you mention Note Dame in your first post.

As stated above, college camps serve a purpose.  College prospect camps serve another purpose. Know and understand the difference. Traveling far from home is a chance, and unless someone has told you about camps and mostly that they subsidize salaries, you wouldn't necessarily know.  Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

I know a lot of kids who grew up at local program camps, who eventually earned a scholarship. Use your backyard programs to your advantage. 

As far as Note Dame, they joined the ACC for football. Baseball is a stretch for success, JMO. 

As far as running camps, many coaches leave that to staff, or some camps pay their players in summer or fall as allowed by the NCAA. FWIW in D1, usually the volunteer assistant and the baseball operations guy organize and run camps. That's how they earn their salary. It usually is the HC job to make introductions, and closing remarks. Some do instruction.  The really good ones watch the players and offer comments.

Branson Baseball posted:

My sincere apologies to all.  I should have kept my comments specific to the prospect camp.

Don't.  We learn from all of us here.  And I've learned a lot from your experiences.  Thanks

Infield Dad...hate the player not the game is slang which loosely translates into "don't get mad at the guy who is winning in the system, hate the system that allows it." I didn't mean it literally as I believe you interpreted it.

TPM - thanks, I think you understand my dilemma. I get it about the camps, trust me. And like I said above, we did the trip willingly. I guess I just expected them to at least thank my son for coming such a long distance at their request. Least they could do IMO.

Lucky above made a good point at the end of his post regarding calling out coaches by name. I realize that hasn't been part of this forum in the past, but when someone is a professional coach they are kind of signing on the dotted line to take their lumps in the press, with fans, etc...we all know they certainly don't mind reveling in the glory. That said, I believe there should be discourse to a degree about the tactics some schools/coaches use in order to get kids into these camps. If the invitation is misleading or disingenuous, then those programs need to hear it. It's kind of like that post about click bait the other day in another thread....

College camps:

Provide the Volunteer AC with an income.

If a player shows up embarrassing everyone else on the field the colleges have a 1/100 success rate. 

For a few kids, occasionally and rarely, maybe once in an eclipse, they'll have a chance to be seen by all the coaches that are not paying attention.

Useful camps: D1 skilled players with something to show, showing up at an Ivy camp acknowledging they value a top tier education. (Unfortunately the parents are not aware of the net cost)

If you don't have skills that will standout don't show up.  

Parents, deploy your money into programs that will create strength and speed to become beasts. 

Out. 

My son has been getting consistent emails from ND (& other major university's) for the past 2 years. Each one urging him to 'come to their prospect camp' so they can work with him, see him play etc. Every one states that a certain large % of their current players were discovered at 'their camps' They all imply that they have either seen him play or someone has recommended him to them as a potential prospect/student athlete (complete bullsh*t-they got his name/email off 'a list' that they bought...probably from PG).

IMHO, this is nothing more than a marketing ploy to get the unsuspecting kid and his parents to write $400 camp checks knowing full well it's only going to be used to line their pockets and subsidize the AC's salaries. I have absolutely NO problem having them called out here (or anywhere) for what they truly are. A bunch of low-life con-men that prey on the hopes & dreams of kids and parents with aspirations to play college baseball at the highest levels. If some of these coaches actually take the time to address the kids and parents at the camp and give them the 'skinny' on how it all works? Good for them! If they decide it's more important to walk around drinking coffee and eating donuts, ignoring the parents and kids then by all means......Post it here!

Took me a little while to figure it all out, glad I finally did-with a lot of help and info from this website. I guess the other option would have been to pay some clown-show recruiting company thousands to put me on a slower learning curve?

This crap won't stop until the parents eventually get wise and if this site can help those parents of young baseball players figure it out quicker? More power to all involved!

Infielddad: you say this site shouldn't be the avenue to call out coaches that don't provide any value for $400 camp checks? I say it's EXACTLY the avenue for that! I believe it's here to help parents navigate the process in a meaningful way so they learn as much as they can as quick as they can about a brutal endeavor that will put a HUGE dent in their bank accounts if their not careful and educated (JMHO).

Perhaps we should start a 'sticky' thread where we can all give opinions of value on college prospect camps? Which ones to attend and which ones to AVOID!

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Infield Dad...hate the player not the game is slang which loosely translates into "don't get mad at the guy who is winning in the system, hate the system that allows it." I didn't mean it literally as I believe you interpreted it.

TPM - thanks, I think you understand my dilemma. I get it about the camps, trust me. And like I said above, we did the trip willingly. I guess I just expected them to at least thank my son for coming such a long distance at their request. Least they could do IMO.

Lucky above made a good point at the end of his post regarding calling out coaches by name. I realize that hasn't been part of this forum in the past, but when someone is a professional coach they are kind of signing on the dotted line to take their lumps in the press, with fans, etc...we all know they certainly don't mind reveling in the glory. That said, I believe there should be discourse to a degree about the tactics some schools/coaches use in order to get kids into these camps. If the invitation is misleading or disingenuous, then those programs need to hear it. It's kind of like that post about click bait the other day in another thread....

 

Two thoughts for you:

1.) how much would HF cost if only those who truly should be there attended?  Stated differently, I would bet the cost is lower to your son and you and the profit margins higher because.....

2.)  Most every HS player who should be recruited has had a negative experience. Many who think they should be recruited never are..and are told that in some method by college coaches.  Are you advocating this site now becomes a poster board for naming every college coach because someone didn't like the way they didn't recruit our son?

Many commented on D1 camps and how few players were recruited from the camps. How about D3 camps? Many D3 camp invites include some lines such as "5 out of the 7 2017 recruits attended our prospect camp." Are those true?

OK, slightly different aspect. What about if a kid is asked by a college coach to come to the camp? What factors do you use to determine if, in fact, this is a good use of your son's time and your money? Out-of-pocket coast (travel, etc.)? How high it is on his list of schools? Something else?

You know how if you email a coach and he sends back his cell number that mean he wants you to call him?? Is there a similar "tell" when a coach is asking you to come to a camp (I don't mean by way of mass emails)?

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

DesertDuck posted:

My son has been getting consistent emails from ND (& other major university's) for the past 2 years. Each one urging him to 'come to their prospect camp' so they can work with him, see him play etc. Every one states that a certain large % of their current players were discovered at 'their camps' They all imply that they have either seen him play or someone has recommended him to them as a potential prospect/student athlete (complete bullsh*t-they got his name/email off 'a list' that they bought...probably from PG).

IMHO, this is nothing more than a marketing ploy to get the unsuspecting kid and his parents to write $400 camp checks knowing full well it's only going to be used to line their pockets and subsidize the AC's salaries. I have absolutely NO problem having them called out here (or anywhere) for what they truly are. A bunch of low-life con-men that prey on the hopes & dreams of kids and parents with aspirations to play college baseball at the highest levels. If some of these coaches actually take the time to address the kids and parents at the camp and give them the 'skinny' on how it all works? Good for them! If they decide it's more important to walk around drinking coffee and eating donuts, ignoring the parents and kids then by all means......Post it here!

Took me a little while to figure it all out, glad I finally did-with a lot of help and info from this website. I guess the other option would have been to pay some clown-show recruiting company thousands to put me on a slower learning curve?

This crap won't stop until the parents eventually get wise and if this site can help those parents of young baseball players figure it out quicker? More power to all involved!

Infielddad: you say this site shouldn't be the avenue to call out coaches that don't provide any value for $400 camp checks? I say it's EXACTLY the avenue for that! I believe it's here to help parents navigate the process in a meaningful way so they learn as much as they can as quick as they can about a brutal endeavor that will put a HUGE dent in their bank accounts if their not careful and educated (JMHO).

Perhaps we should start a 'sticky' thread where we can all give opinions of value on college prospect camps? Which ones to attend and which ones to AVOID!

I appreciate your input here, Duck. I think you are on to something. If coaches/programs know parents/athletes are sick of the hard sell and see attendance decline (and revenue) as a result, perhaps they will change their approach. Nah...just kidding. They won't change anything because there will always be someone who is uninformed and willing to buy into the dream.

I think you could achieve this in a seperate topic. Ask for camp recommendations, stay away from negativity than ask why they found the camp to be worthwhile.

We could then set up this information geographically.

FWIW, I agree with infielddad.

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

infielddad posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Infield Dad...hate the player not the game is slang which loosely translates into "don't get mad at the guy who is winning in the system, hate the system that allows it." I didn't mean it literally as I believe you interpreted it.

TPM - thanks, I think you understand my dilemma. I get it about the camps, trust me. And like I said above, we did the trip willingly. I guess I just expected them to at least thank my son for coming such a long distance at their request. Least they could do IMO.

Lucky above made a good point at the end of his post regarding calling out coaches by name. I realize that hasn't been part of this forum in the past, but when someone is a professional coach they are kind of signing on the dotted line to take their lumps in the press, with fans, etc...we all know they certainly don't mind reveling in the glory. That said, I believe there should be discourse to a degree about the tactics some schools/coaches use in order to get kids into these camps. If the invitation is misleading or disingenuous, then those programs need to hear it. It's kind of like that post about click bait the other day in another thread....

 

Two thoughts for you:

1.) how much would HF cost if only those who truly should be there attended?  Stated differently, I would bet the cost is lower to your son and you and the profit margins higher because.....

2.)  Most every HS player who should be recruited has had a negative experience. Many who think they should be recruited never are..and are told that in some method by college coaches.  Are you advocating this site now becomes a poster board for naming every college coach because someone didn't like the way they didn't recruit our son?

Any showcase is going to charge what the market will bear. Headfirst is owned/operated by a Stanford grad, I would bet he has figured this out long ago. I don't feel anyone's entry fee into that event is "subsidized" in any way by the volume of kids there. In fact, the higher the demand for their product, the more camps they will try to host...that is business 101. But at some point when the pool of talent at these events becomes too watered down to bear fruit for the colleges in attendance, they will stop coming...then so will the players.

I am not advocating this just becoming a place to flame coaches, of course not. But I also feel that if they are going to run a program that this website should allow criticism of their program by name. I don't mean its cool to call someone a donut eating fatty, but to say their camp isn't worth the money due to poor camp practices, lack of age-appropriate skills training, or flat out being disingenuous about how they came to invite your son is certainly fair game.

After today it became apparent that the kid who was hitting the bombs in BP has the right approach to getting a coach's attention at a camp. Again, our situation is that an asst coach contact us, thru club coach, to get my son here. WE NEVER PURSUED THIS SCHOOL. We accepted the invitation and by default the expense, to come out. At least shake my kid's hand, I had no illusions that they were going to offer him a scholarship.

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

Its not one coach with dozens of kids, it may be the entire coaching staff as well as players who do give instruction. Or they may have scouts that come in or other division coaches.

My sons program just had a camp. It involved about 15 pitchers for him to evaluate, all being considerations for scholarships. The hitting coach also had about 15. The HC spoke to the parents for an hour after the camp and explained his program and took questions.

However, most of these players live within the state.

I think this may be what most would prefer.

Because D3 programs have limited resources, I believe they use their camps to recruit and to help pay salaries.

Always keep in mind the main objective for ANY program is to make money from their instructional or youth camps for salaries.