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Obstruction

Tangents23Tangents2310+ posts
Does obstruction always result in an awarded base under Fed rules?

Had a play where BR rounded first and ran into F3 who was watching the outfielder. Umpire pointed and called out obstruction but then did not award BR second base because he claimed that the runner wasn't going to attempt to go nor would he have made it if he did.
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Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
It is an oddity of Fed, obstruction is always a delayed dead ball and always one base. Now if he didn't think he was obstructed then he needs to not call it. Once he announces it, he has to award it.
We have discussed this in the past, if he feels the runner was just rounding and had no intention of advancing, then there is no obstruction and he needs to say nothing. If he believes the runner may have attempted to advance, whether he thought he would have made it or not, then needs to announce the obstruction and then award a base.
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
It is an oddity of Fed, obstruction is always a delayed dead ball and always one base.


Always at least one base. The umpire protects the runner to the base the umpire felt he would have obtained absent the obstruction. However, this award must be at least one base from the last-touched base.

The biggest oddity is in a pick-off of R1. If F3 obstructs the runner returning the base, he's awarded 2B, even though he was never attempting to go to 2B.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
So even if F3 is in the basepath and BR runs into him it is still a judgement?


The basepath is irrelevant. The question (judgment) is whether the runner was impeded by the fielder. A collision does not necessarily mean the runner was impeded.

It is judgement whether the collision is actually obstruction. As yawetag points out, it's at least one base, more if you think it is needed to nullify the obstruction.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
The biggest oddity is in a pick-off of R1. If F3 obstructs the runner returning the base, he's awarded 2B, even though he was never attempting to go to 2B.

This is not an oddity to Fed. This is true in all codes. In NCAA or OBR they use a type A/type B obstruction rule. I will address OBR only because NCAA is a little odd.
Type A is when a play is being made on the runner. It is considered that the defense has gained an advantage unfairly, therefore the penalty is punitive.
Type B is when there is no play on the runner. This is more procedural or even accidental. This is penalized by nullifying the obstruction.
Fed feels that obstruction is unsporting no matter the reason so they always award at least one base.
Since a pick-off is a direct play on a runner, if you rule there is an obstruction then he gets second.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by yawetag:

The biggest oddity is in a pick-off of R1. If F3 obstructs the runner returning the base, he's awarded 2B, even though he was never attempting to go to 2B.


Nothing odd at all. All codes, beginning with OBR in the 1800's slant towards the offense and once a team gets a runner on base, the defense if punished severely if they take an unfair advantage of him.

And, awards are not based on the direction of the runner in any code.
N NavyUmp10+ posts
I am sorry but where does it say in OBR that it is a least a one base award for type B obstruction. If I pivot on a base hit to left and there is contact rounding first (normal rounding as typical on any single to the outfield). I will signal the obstruction. As I continue I see the ball being thrown in to second. I will not award in this situation. If however the ball is misplayed in the outfield I have a different situation and may chose to award additional bases. I am confused by the statements to award a least one base on type B.
biggerpapibiggerpapi5,000+ posts
NavyUmp,

I'm no umpire (but I'm really good at calling balls and strikes from the dugout) so I won't debate the actual rule, however, it is not unreasonable or even uncommon for fast base runner to try and stretch a double on a routine base hit to left.

I always teach my base runners to run right into that first baseman if he's in the way.
Last edited by biggerpapi
jjkjjk500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NavyUmp:
I am sorry but where does it say in OBR that it is a least a one base award for type B obstruction. If I pivot on a base hit to left and there is contact rounding first (normal rounding as typical on any single to the outfield). I will signal the obstruction. As I continue I see the ball being thrown in to second. I will not award in this situation. If however the ball is misplayed in the outfield I have a different situation and may chose to award additional bases. I am confused by the statements to award a least one base on type B.


I'll jump on yer bandwagon, er should I say ship/boat?
OBR say's umpires judgement on type B, if BR isn't going and isn't being played on, I'm not necessarily awarding 2B either? The "if any" below jumps out at me.

From OBR
(b) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no
further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such
penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.
jjkjjk500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
NavyUmp,

I'm no umpire (but I'm really good at calling balls and strikes from the dugout) so I won't debate the actual rule, however, it is not unreasonable or even uncommon for fast base runner to try and stretch a double on a routine base hit to left.

I always teach my base runners to run right into that first baseman if he's in the way.


And you may be giving us a substition for the now ejected R on 2nd base or maybe even 1B.
The rule is to protect the runner, not empower them.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
I don't see it as malicious if the defense is where they shouldn't be and the runner is. (even if intentional) Obviously if it were a case of lowering a shoulder or something else like that I could understand.


It's always going to be a case of being there. Every situation is different.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
And I'm not talking about dropping your shoulder and knocking the guy down. But if the fielder is in the way, we want the obstruction to be obvious.


And we have to determine whether the runner is hindered in making a legitimate attempt at the next base, or is just initiating contact to draw an unwarranted obstruction call.

It's why they pay us the big bucks.
jjkjjk500+ posts
quote:
But if the fielder is in the way, we want the obstruction to be obvious


I don't get it.
Save flopping for so...., ba....... and pu..rs

If it's obs. it's already obvious, if R has to "deviate at all" to miss the D obs. is already leaning R's way.

Intentionally initiating unprovoked contact, even if not malicious, but unsportsmen like, dangerous, fighting, inciting, that kinda stuff, could warrant an ejection, why not?
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by jjk:
quote:
But if the fielder is in the way, we want the obstruction to be obvious


I don't get it.
Save flopping for so...., ba....... and pu..rs

If it's obs. it's already obvious, if R has to "deviate at all" to miss the D obs. is already leaning R's way.

Intentionally initiating unprovoked contact, even if not malicious, but unsportsmen like, dangerous, fighting, inciting, that kinda stuff, could warrant an ejection, why not?

Contact is not needed but unfortunately some umpires won't call it without it. I don't know why but some need it presented on a silver platter. This is why I like discussions like this, it educates some that have less training. An ejection is going need something unsportmanlike or malicious. Contact in and of itself does not rise to an ejection, even if intentional.
If the fielder is in the way the runner has to choose either to hit him or go way out of the way to avoid him.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Umpire#7:
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
Does obstruction always result in an awarded base under Fed rules?

Umpire pointed and called out obstruction


You don't have to point or say anything. Just hold out your left in in a fist, and announce and award after play ends.


You need to announce it. Everyone needs to know what is going on, and the fist doesn't do that, just that "something" has happened.

Also, while the fist is the approved FED mechanic, I wouldn't recommend it (just like most other FED mechanics.)
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:
quote:
Originally posted by Umpire#7:
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
Does obstruction always result in an awarded base under Fed rules?

Umpire pointed and called out obstruction


You don't have to point or say anything. Just hold out your left in in a fist, and announce and award after play ends.


You need to announce it. Everyone needs to know what is going on, and the fist doesn't do that, just that "something" has happened.

Also, while the fist is the approved FED mechanic, I wouldn't recommend it (just like most other FED mechanics.)

I have to agree with Matt, the closed fist to the left is the Fed mechanic that I have never used, nor seen it used. If you use it, that's fine but you have to announce it. If you don't announce it I can assure you the coach is going to think you decided it after the fact.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Umpire#7:
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
Does obstruction always result in an awarded base under Fed rules?

Umpire pointed and called out obstruction


You don't have to point or say anything. Just hold out your left in in a fist, and announce and award after play ends.


Welcome to the site...#7! .....you correctly identified the FED Mechanic for calling obstruction and if your chapter or evaluators require it, its quite ok to use it.....

As said above by our staff..... That being said, its very rarely used in most HS chapters and definately not used in other levels of baseball....

I find that most HS coaches do not even know that there is a FED mechanic for obstruction and the "Point" and a "Verbal Call" of "thats obstruction!" is much more clear.....

Again if your chapter requries using FED mechanics over say, CCA mechanics, and your evaluation depends on it, by all means use it.....

But I find the the "Point" and a "Verbal Call" of "thats obstruction!", or the "safe signal", followed by the verbal "thats nothing" is much more clear and avoids the inevitable coach discussion on whether or not you saw and acknowledged the incident.......

Best of luck on what you choose....and welcome to the site...we can always use umpires on our staff....
Last edited by piaa_ump
Umpire#7Umpire#7Member
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by Umpire#7:
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
Does obstruction always result in an awarded base under Fed rules?

Umpire pointed and called out obstruction


You don't have to point or say anything. Just hold out your left in in a fist, and announce and award after play ends.


Welcome to the site...#7! .....you correctly identified the FED Mechanic for calling obstruction and if your chapter or evaluators require it, its quite ok to use it.....

As said above by our staff..... That being said, its very rarely used in most HS chapters and definately not used in other levels of baseball....

I find that most HS coaches do not even know that there is a FED mechanic for obstruction and the "Point" and a "Verbal Call" of "thats obstruction!" is much more clear.....

Again if your chapter requries using FED mechanics over say, CCA mechanics, and your evaluation depends on it, by all means use it.....

But I find the the "Point" and a "Verbal Call" of "thats obstruction!", or the "safe signal", followed by the verbal "thats nothing" is much more clear and avoids the inevitable coach discussion on whether or not you saw and acknowledged the incident.......

Best of luck on what you choose....and welcome to the site...we can always use umpires on our staff....


Thank You for the warm welcome. I guess we do things a little different here down south. I have worked with umpires from Texas, Mississippi, and Arkansas over the few years calling USSSA and Dixie ball. Every time the situation has come up I have seen the left arm extended used. I guess I assumed that it was the mechanic to use. I now understand, it is a standard mechanic here in North Louisiana.

This makes me very interested to find out the other mechanics of various umpires. We had a clinic this past weekend. I learned from a College level umpire, that after coming set to make a call:
you can take a lead step and move your upper body. You can even swivel your head back and forth or up and down to get the best look. Of course this would look ridiculous on a routine play to first. But on that bang bang play when the ball in lost in a fury of leather, cotton, humans, and dirt, taking that lead step and getting a better look just looks real good.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Umpire#7:
But on that bang bang play when the ball in lost in a fury of leather, cotton, humans, and dirt, taking that lead step and getting a better look just looks real good.


In this type of situation, it is important to move. Move in any way necessary, and not in any way unnecessary. Move with authority and a purpose. Don't move "just because."
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Umpire#7:
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by Umpire#7:
quote:
Originally posted by Tangents23:
Does obstruction always result in an awarded base under Fed rules?

Umpire pointed and called out obstruction


You don't have to point or say anything. Just hold out your left in in a fist, and announce and award after play ends.


Welcome to the site...#7! .....you correctly identified the FED Mechanic for calling obstruction and if your chapter or evaluators require it, its quite ok to use it.....

As said above by our staff..... That being said, its very rarely used in most HS chapters and definately not used in other levels of baseball....

I find that most HS coaches do not even know that there is a FED mechanic for obstruction and the "Point" and a "Verbal Call" of "thats obstruction!" is much more clear.....

Again if your chapter requries using FED mechanics over say, CCA mechanics, and your evaluation depends on it, by all means use it.....

But I find the the "Point" and a "Verbal Call" of "thats obstruction!", or the "safe signal", followed by the verbal "thats nothing" is much more clear and avoids the inevitable coach discussion on whether or not you saw and acknowledged the incident.......

Best of luck on what you choose....and welcome to the site...we can always use umpires on our staff....


Thank You for the warm welcome. I guess we do things a little different here down south. I have worked with umpires from Texas, Mississippi, and Arkansas over the few years calling USSSA and Dixie ball. Every time the situation has come up I have seen the left arm extended used. I guess I assumed that it was the mechanic to use. I now understand, it is a standard mechanic here in North Louisiana.

This makes me very interested to find out the other mechanics of various umpires. We had a clinic this past weekend. I learned from a College level umpire, that after coming set to make a call:
you can take a lead step and move your upper body. You can even swivel your head back and forth or up and down to get the best look. Of course this would look ridiculous on a routine play to first. But on that bang bang play when the ball in lost in a fury of leather, cotton, humans, and dirt, taking that lead step and getting a better look just looks real good.


You are talking about a jab step. You have the normal angle you are trying for, 90 degrees, but sometimes the play will blow up. At that point you need to jab step in one direction or the other to get a look. It will happen on tag plays on the bases or the plate also. You are correct that on a routine play you don't want to do this.
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