Obstruction, Interferance, or Nothing?

I think we can help here but we have to get a few things made a bit clearer

In baseball terms:

F1 is the Pitcher
F2 is the Catcher
F3 is the First Baseman
F4 is the Second Baseman
F5 is the Third Baseman
F6 is the Shortstop

in your post you have the pitcher colliding with the runner in the baseline and the catcher ultimately tagging out the runner...

I'm thinking you mean the first baseman has collided with the runner and that ultimately the second baseman tags out the runner.....is that correct?

If so, this sounds like classic obstruction on the 1st baseman......

PIAA I think he is saying that the throw from the catcher brought the second baseman into the baseline where the collision happened. Then the shortstop came over, picked the ball up and tagged the runner. Or the shortstop collided and the second baseman picked the ball up for the tag.

oh, lets hope we get a clarification.....

Sorry for the wrong format... Lets try this again.

R1 attempting to steal 2b. Throw from catcher takes F6 into baseline 2-3ft from base (between 1b &2b). R1 starts an early slide and collides with F6. Ball is not caught but stays close. R1 gets up but F6 is still in base line and R1 get tangled with as F6 goes down in pain. F4 picks up ball and tags R1 as R1 still tries to get by F6.

Please help clarify this mess.

My call would be that r1 is out. F6 has a right to be in the basepath of runner if he is in the act of waiting for a thrown ball to come to him. The collision is no ones fault and play continues until he is either safe or put out by a fielder. Now if r1 had gotten up and colided with a different player who was not in the act of the play then it would be obstruction and the runner would get the next base.

Obstruction by a fielder happens when a runner runs into a fielder who is not in the act of making a play either on him or another runner. A fielder waiting for a thrown ball has a right to catch the ball where it is thrown regardless of where the baserunner is running.

Interfarence happens when a runner runs into a fielder attempting to field a batted ball.

So in your case, there is neither interfarence by the runner, nor obstruction by the fielder. They both have a right to the baseline and the collision is just part of the game- play on!

Thanks for your response. However you did not address the point that F6 was no longer waiting for the throw and still remained in the base path and impeded the runner.

Thanks

I'm assuming HS rules here. It is obstruction because the SS didn't have the ball. He is not allowed to be there withoout the ball, there is no in the process of catching, like there is in OBR.
Now in if you were playing OBR then the initial play wouldn't be obstruction but the second part would.

This seemed like a normal play where the ss was to catch the ball at the bag but throw went wide towards first innocent enough . Are there any coaches that would make play up like this to get extra fast runners out becuase they can't do it with a normal catcher straight to second base throw. I can't prove it, but I believe that I have seen it before. just like having ss cicle around runner at second, then just happens to stop in between runner and the bag when pitcher trys to pick him off with the second baseman covering the bag. what type of call would this be, I also seen this done alot and nothing is done about it

If the SS is setting up in front of the runner so the F4 can take the throw, that would be obstruction. However, it's not obstruction until there is actually a play. Once the pla happens, the R2 should go to third.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
I'm assuming HS rules here. It is obstruction because the SS didn't have the ball. He is not allowed to be there withoout the ball, there is no in the process of catching, like there is in OBR.
Now in if you were playing OBR then the initial play wouldn't be obstruction but the second part would.

Where is this rule located in the OBR?

It's in the definitions section.

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.

Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in
flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.” It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the “act of fielding” the ball. For example: an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner,
he very likely has obstructed the runner.

So...

I do not have a HS rule book in front of me. Could one assume that since there is a reference to the "act of fielding the ball" that includes catching a thrown ball in the OBR that at all levels the "act of fielding the ball" would include catching a thrown ball even if the Obstruction definition found in that rule book did not include the commentary found in the OBR? Or is there something specific in the HS rule book that would not include a fielder to be in the baseline to catch a thrown ball?

Generally, it is going to be a logical judgment call by the umpire. Apply this same rule to a runner caught in a pickle-

Lets say a runner gets caught in a run down between 3rd and home. after throwing back and forth a couple of times, the runner finally decides to just run towards home. The catcher, while in the baseline, awaiting the throw (midflight) gets pounded and ran over by the runner thus causing the catcher to not catch the ball. At this moment, can any ruling be made? No, in this situation, there is going to be a play, there is a collision not because the runner interfared with the catcher, neither is the collision called obstruction because the catcher has the right to stand his ground in order to catch the ball (where else is he supposed to stand?) when the play is going to be close. We cannot assume that either the runner or the fielder is going to arrive at a cetrain point first. The defense always has a right to catch a thrown ball where it is thrown in order to prevent errors on the play or further errors resulting from throw. This does not mean that a fielder has a right to block the baseline before the throw is made- that would be obstruction if a runner ran into him, but as soon as the ball is thrown, the fielder has the right to be in the spot where the ball is being thrown to. If the throw is errant and the fielder has to adjust and gets run over before he catches it- tough luck on both the runner and fielder and play on.

The right of way always goes towards the defensive side. This is because the defense has a right of way on all batted and thrown balls. It is the baserunner that must adjust when there is going to be a play on a batted or thrown ball. The runner isn't gaurenteed his right of way in the baseline unless he runs into a fielder who is not making a play and impeeds him by making uneccesary contact.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballhack:
So...

I do not have a HS rule book in front of me. Could one assume that since there is a reference to the "act of fielding the ball" that includes catching a thrown ball in the OBR that at all levels the "act of fielding the ball" would include catching a thrown ball even if the Obstruction definition found in that rule book did not include the commentary found in the OBR? Or is there something specific in the HS rule book that would not include a fielder to be in the baseline to catch a thrown ball?

NO.....OBR is not the defining rule set for all levels of baseball....it is clearly the format from which most rules are taken, but is not the overriding rule set...

NFHS rules are probably the most differing rule set for non-youth leagues....."the act of fielding a ball" has no bearing on NFHS rules anymore....the change was made I believe in 2008.....NCAA states it the cleanest...

Obstruction is the act of any fielder who "clearly without possession of the ball", blocks the base, plate or base line and impedes the progress of any runner.....

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The catcher, while in the baseline, awaiting the throw (midflight) gets pounded and ran over by the runner thus causing the catcher to not catch the ball. At this moment, can any ruling be made? No, in this situation, there is going to be a play, there is a collision not because the runner interfared with the catcher, neither is the collision called obstruction because the catcher has the right to stand his ground in order to catch the ball (where else is he supposed to stand?) when the play is going to be close. We cannot assume that either the runner or the fielder is going to arrive at a cetrain point first. The defense always has a right to catch a thrown ball where it is thrown in order to prevent errors on the play or further errors resulting from throw. This does not mean that a fielder has a right to block the baseline before the throw is made- that would be obstruction if a runner ran into him, but as soon as the ball is thrown, the fielder has the right to be in the spot where the ball is being thrown to. If the throw is errant and the fielder has to adjust and gets run over before he catches it- tough luck on both the runner and fielder and play on..

you are right in OBR but incorrect in NCAA and NFHS rules.....

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

Lets say a runner gets caught in a run down between 3rd and home. after throwing back and forth a couple of times, the runner finally decides to just run towards home. The catcher, while in the baseline, awaiting the throw (midflight) gets pounded and ran over by the runner thus causing the catcher to not catch the ball. At this moment, can any ruling be made?

Yes, a ruling can be made in all codes. In Fed and NCAA, it is obstruction by black and white rule. The catcher can't be in the basepath unless he has possesion of the ball. In OBR, we can get guidance from the MLBUM or Jaksa/Roder. MLBUM 6.23(8) "Runner on second base, no outs. Pitcher attempts a pick-off at second, and the runner gets in a rundown between second and third. During the rundown the runner is obstructed by the third baseman while a throw is in flight from the shortstop......" I'm not going to quote the whole ruling, but it is clear that in a rundown, the fielder to whom a ball is in flight is not afforded any protection from obstruction.

The "act of fielding the ball" refers to inaccurate throws made from a sufficient distance such that the fielder is drawn from his normal (non-obstructing) position into the path of the runner. Jaksa/Roder: "A catcher or any fielder does have the right to block a runner's touch of a base if he is in the act of fielding a throw. His block of a base must be a fluid, continuous result of his effort to glove the ball. Separate, discontinuous movement whose sole purpose is to block the base is obstruction."

quote:

The right of way always goes towards the defensive side. This is because the defense has a right of way on all batted and thrown balls. It is the baserunner that must adjust when there is going to be a play on a batted or thrown ball.

True for batted balls (though only for one fielder at any moment), but nearly always false for thrown balls, even in OBR.

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The catcher, while in the baseline, awaiting the throw (midflight) gets pounded and ran over by the runner thus causing the catcher to not catch the ball. At this moment, can any ruling be made? No, in this situation, there is going to be a play, there is a collision not because the runner interfared with the catcher, neither is the collision called obstruction because the catcher has the right to stand his ground in order to catch the ball (where else is he supposed to stand?) when the play is going to be close. We cannot assume that either the runner or the fielder is going to arrive at a cetrain point first. The defense always has a right to catch a thrown ball where it is thrown in order to prevent errors on the play or further errors resulting from throw. This does not mean that a fielder has a right to block the baseline before the throw is made- that would be obstruction if a runner ran into him, but as soon as the ball is thrown, the fielder has the right to be in the spot where the ball is being thrown to. If the throw is errant and the fielder has to adjust and gets run over before he catches it- tough luck on both the runner and fielder and play on..

you are right in OBR but incorrect in NCAA and NFHS rules.....

piaa_ump I don't believe OBR allows a catcher to stand his ground either. He has to give way to the runner and can't position himself there to receive the ball. As an example, I was at a Diamondbacks game where they had a runner in a run down between 1B and 2B. The runner was smart enough to turn after the F3 threw the ball over the runner to F4 and the runner purposedly collided with F3 who didn't get out of the way in time. BU called obstruction and awarded runner 2B.

Manager came out to argue the runner collided intentionally with F3 but BU shrugged him off basically.

And isnt that why we teach fielders to turn away after making the throw in a run down?

The easy way to remember what the fielder can do in OBR is if the ball takes him to a spot to catch the ball he is OK. He can't set up in the way to make the ball come to him.