Obstruction question

You might want to get a washcloth. You protect him to whichever base but once a play is made on the obstructed runner, kill it. Without the collision he would have had time to make it back. Now if you only have to third and he tries for home and gets thrown out by a fair distance then he is out.

HTBT. As as soon as there is OBS the umpire must make a judgement, clean BH to LF, fielded cleanly R2 not going on contact for ex. might be protected to 3B? Soft liner over SS, with a shallow LF, R2 heading back to 2B, maybe protected to 2B. Scorcher down the line F7 diving stop with two out R2 going on contact, maybe protected to HP?
You just can't say, R2, single, he's scoring, you gotta see the situation and make some judgement/s.

And yes, if the ump protects him to 3B and he rounds it trying to draw a throw or something, waving to the GF in the stands, slips and falls on his own, then he is at risk to be thrown out upon his return to 3B.

Where as if the play is close, with throw driving R2 and F5 to the outfield side of 3B. In an effort to avoid the collision,, R2 attempts a wide hook slide, touches and goes beyond the bag, I'm probably protecting back even though he got the one I was protecting him too.
Otherwise, pass the one the ump judges you get, your at risk.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:

You just can't say, R2, single, he's scoring, you gotta see the situation and make some judgement/s.

Sure you can.

Mike S, I'm confused. In the first sentence you say kill it as soon as a play is made on an obstructed runner, but then you go on to say that if he tries for home and is thrown out by enough, he's out. So with your arm sticking out singaling delayed dead, you are going to allow an obstructed runner called out? I would think that might get someone off the bench.

quote:

Originally posted by Kumi:
with your arm sticking out singaling delayed dead, you are going to allow an obstructed runner called out?

Absolutely if the runner advances beyond the base that I judge he would have reached.

quote:

I would think that might get someone off the bench.

No doubt it will, that doesn't make the call wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Kumi:
Mike S, I'm confused. In the first sentence you say kill it as soon as a play is made on an obstructed runner, but then you go on to say that if he tries for home and is thrown out by enough, he's out. So with your arm sticking out singaling delayed dead, you are going to allow an obstructed runner called out? I would think that might get someone off the bench.

When the runner is obstructed and a play isn't being made on him then it is a delayed dead ball. Once a play is made on the obstructed runner then the ball is dead. At that point you decide if he is to be awarded a base or is going to be out because you overran his protection. This the OBR method.
In FED obstruction is always delayed dead ball and at least a base, maybe more. So if other runners are still moving then leave the ball live in case the defense could get other outs. If the obstructed runner is tagged out but you are going to give him the base, then don't make a call. If you think he overran his protection, call him out.
This beside the point but I have never used the arm to the side mechanic. I announce the obstruction when it happens and then sort out the play when it is dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:

This beside the point but I have never used the arm to the side mechanic. I announce the obstruction when it happens and then sort out the play when it is dead.

I hate that delayed dead ball mechanic. The ball is live. There is no need for any signal.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:

This beside the point but I have never used the arm to the side mechanic. I announce the obstruction when it happens and then sort out the play when it is dead.

I hate that delayed dead ball mechanic. The ball is live. There is no need for any signal.

There is no such thing as a "delayed" dead ball. The ball is either live or dead at any time.

Some will say, "But it's going to be dead." That's true for the duration of the entire game. It will always eventually become dead. But what is it now?

Delayed dead ball is an actual Fed term. I know OBR doesn't use it but it is what happens. I realize what you are saying but in most plays the ball is live with a possibility of something causing the ball to be killed. On an obstruction or CI, it is a certainty that the ball is going to be killed at the end of the play. It's a matter of semantics.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
Delayed dead ball is an actual Fed term. I know OBR doesn't use it but it is what happens. I realize what you are saying but in most plays the ball is live with a possibility of something causing the ball to be killed. On an obstruction or CI, it is a certainty that the ball is going to be killed at the end of the play. It's a matter of semantics.

On BI the ball is only going to be killed if the runner was not retired. If the putout is made, the ball remains live. So how is that "delayed dead"?

There is no such thing as a delayed deadball.

True, FED has such a phrase, but it reality, it does not exist. The ball is live or it is dead, and it's status may change for many reasons, but nonetheless, it is live or dead at any one time.

If, after a CI or obstruction situation, the you were discussing the play with a coach and he asked, "What was the status the ball?" would you really say, "Uh, it was delayed dead."?

Of course not. It was live. Then it was dead.

Jimmy, I don't understand your reluctance to comprehend such a simple thing. I realize you and others don't like the term but it is a condition that happens. On plays the are considered DDB plays, CI,balk,and obstruction, you know when the violation happens 90% of the time the ball will be killed at the end of play. On other plays it is either an immediate dead ball or the ball stays live. Yes, there are DDB situations that the violation is not enforced but more than likely you will know you are killing the ball at the end of play. That is a DDB. On most plays you don't even consider the condition of the ball. There are specific plays that it is in your mind that is going to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
Jimmy, I don't understand your reluctance to comprehend such a simple thing. I realze you and others don't like the term but it is a condition that happens.

Michael:

It isn't resistance, It is acceptance of reality. It is FED that dealing with fantasy. I shared that fantasy for years until a very wise umpire, Jim Evans, explained reality to me.

The ball is live or dead. That is a fact. Even in FED. The term is used in hope that it will remind the lowest common denominator HS umpires to kill the ball when it appropriate. That's all. It does not describe the proper and realtime status of the ball.

I added to my post while you were typing. I agree completely that the ball is either live or dead in real time. It doesn't change the fact that certain plays predetermine that the likely outcome is a dead ball.

Michael:

If it such a thing existed, wouldn't it appear in the real baseball rules?

OBR doesn't assume a crutch is needed to remind umpires to kill the ball when appropriate. FED does.

I no longer use the terminology when training FED umpires. I know they won't need it either.

To each his own. I know you train umpires as do I. If you prefer not to use the term, go for it. I absolutely do not nor ever have used the hand to the side mechanic.

Please bear with my ignorance, I'm striving to become something better than a lowest common denominator HS umpire. Thanks for the comment. If I want to be abused I'll call my wife.

Maybe instead of DDB, it should be referred to as a delayed ruling or delayed call. By signaling this, you're letting others know that you're prepared to make a ruling on that play once the play ends. It's not that I'm reminding myself to kill the play when it's appropriate. We don't make signals to ourselves, we make them for the benefit of others (players, coaches and your partner). A smart player can take advantage in certain situations knowing he's protected, a signal lets him know you're going to make the call. I would think that verbally announcing the obstruction might cause some players to think the play is dead.

I enjoy the reading and appreciate the insight. I hope everyone realizes that none of us ever quits learning.

quote:

Originally posted by Kumi:
Please bear with my ignorance, I'm striving to become something better than a lowest common denominator HS umpire. Thanks for the comment. If I want to be abused I'll call my wife.

Maybe instead of DDB, it should be referred to as a delayed ruling or delayed call. By signaling this, you're letting others know that you're prepared to make a ruling on that play once the play ends. It's not that I'm reminding myself to kill the play when it's appropriate. We don't make signals to ourselves, we make them for the benefit of others (players, coaches and your partner). A smart player can take advantage in certain situations knowing he's protected, a signal lets him know you're going to make the call. I would think that verbally announcing the obstruction might cause some players to think the play is dead.

I enjoy the reading and appreciate the insight. I hope everyone realizes that none of us ever quits learning.

The DDB signal (or delayed ruling/call) is inappropriate because:

1. The infraction might be ignored with the ball staying live,

2. There might be no ruling to administer, and

3. 1 and 2 above are not determined until all playing action is over.

The arm out is a Fed thing? I know for sure it is a softball thing. Crutch, don't see how? Why point at a balk, everybody knows who did it? Just another form of communication. Give's blue that added look of "knowing what he's doing and is "all over" this game."

I'm looking at an old, old FED UM, it shows the arm extended and a fist.
The def: signifies an infraction for which: 1. the penalty may be ignored; or (2) bases may be awarded after no further advance is possibley.

So as I'm training/traineeeing, I'd rather hear DDB than a long winded definition that will surely include the term/s; delay, killing, dead ball... in these situations, just becasue there is no such term as DDB.....

Ball is live till I kill it.

That's long winded?

It's certainly more accurate than...The ball is delayed dead. That is what invites the questions?

Delayed? Why? How long is it delayed? What is it now alive or dead. Is delayed dead alive?

Complete and unnecessary nonsense. As I suggested before, if it was either a good idea or clarifed anything, it would have been incorporated into the pro book. It isn't and it isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
The arm out is a Fed thing? I know for sure it is a softball thing. Crutch, don't see how? Why point at a balk, everybody knows who did it? Just another form of communication. Give's blue that added look of "knowing what he's doing and is "all over" this game."

No.

The umpire already signaled the obstuction by pointing at it and saying "that's obstruction." That's what tells everyone he saw it and gives him that look of "knowing what he's doing and is "all over" this game."

Holding his arm out is, at best, redundant.

Don't we combine the verbal with a physical sign (a little more elaborate than a point) on many other calls? What's the argument against making a physical signal for three seconds so a few extra eyes realize something happened?

The only reason for the DDB signal is to indicate the ball is still live. This is completely unnecessary and is not used in any other rules code. The ball is live until the umpire makes it dead by calling either "Time" or "Foul" (except for certain obvious situations like a foul ball over the backstop).

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
The only reason for the DDB signal is to indicate the ball is still live. This is completely unnecessary and is not used in any other rules code. The ball is live until the umpire makes it dead by calling either "Time" or "Foul" (except for certain obvious situations like a foul ball over the backstop).

Exactly.

I didn't know that dash, thanks. I figured the sign meant to inform that an infraction had occured and a call was very likely coming.