Off Campus Contact at 17U WWBA in Marietta, GA

All I can say is last week and this week there has been a good deal of talking to parents and kids on our team. One of our players ('10) signed or gave a verbal last night - D1 program. (Didn't get all details yet.)

pl8blkrmom,

I wouldn't worry about the 3 or 7 contacts too much, because according to D1 rules, contact at a tournament like WWBA isn't allowed at all!

"13.1.7.2 Practice or Competition Site. Recruiting contact may not be made with a prospective student-athlete prior to any athletics competition in which the prospective student-athlete is a participant during the day or days of competition, even if the prospective student-athlete is on an official or unofficial visit. Contact includes the passing of notes or verbally relaying information to a prospective student-athlete by a third party on behalf of an institutional staff member and telephone calls. Such contact shall be governed by the following: ....."

Here's the important one for players:
"13.1.7.2.1 Effect of Violation. Violations of this bylaw shall be considered institutional violations per
Constitution 2.8.1; however, such violations shall not affect the prospective student-athlete’s eligibility."

Some NCAA rules are nearly universally ignored, and this is one of them. A player can't get into trouble over this, and practically speaking neither will a coach.

It's been a couple years however my recollection is that the coaches can talk to the player after he is finished in the tournament. (assuming the player is a rising senior and it's after July 1)

Actually I'm not sure if it's legit however one schools was trying to meet with my son before he pitched in the tournament and he said as long as he had not played in a game it was okay. He didn't end up meeting the coach however I would be curious to know if it was allowed.

There was plenty of communication going on between parents and college coaches during the tournament however so I'm assuming this is allowed.

Let me say in IMHO the whole thing is a joke! When you have events like East Cobb and Jupiter going on where one of the main reasons these events are held is to hopefully get the player noticed, it makes no sense to me that it would be a NCAA violation to allow players to talk to perspective colleges during the tournament. Heck, these things are more a less a baseball job fair. How is putting a gag order in place helping the "student athlete".

Great points jerseydad!

As usual, 3FG's comments are right on the money.

People ask these questions all the time in these forums and the answer is simple, the contact rules do not apply to players. Don't lose anymore sleep over how many times a coach can contact you because it does not affect your player. Also, players can contact coaches whenever and as often as they like.

The rules parents need to concern themsleves with are pretty easy to remember:

Keep your grades up so you can get past the Clearinghouse and remain academically eligible.

Don't accept money or gifts from anyone as it might affect your amateur status. Unless you are a high-profile running back at USC, you probably do not have to worry about this problem.

Do not hire an agent unless he also happens to be your lawyer. If the agent is a non-lawyer, do not hire them. Players can only have non-paid advisors who are non-lawyers. This advice may be somewhat premature with respect to hiring lawyer/agents but I believe Andy Oliver has cleared the way for this arrangement.

Do not use any illegal substances including tobacco.

If I have overlooked any rules for parents to be concerned with, please update my list.

Rule says prior and as far as son was concerned he only spoke to coaches after he pitched a tournament.
I think most do stay within the rules of the NCAA, it does fall on the institution and bumps are allowed.

3FG, once the player gives a verbal, do rules still apply?

A verbal doesn't change anything. In fact, even a player who has signed a LOI is still off limits at a tournament, but contact with his parents/guardian is OK. (13.1.6.8d)

TPM, the rules say prior, during and up until the completion of the last game of the tournament, if the tournament runs on consecutive days. Contact following the game before and during a rest day is permissible. Contact during travel to the tournament is mostly prohibited. (13.1.7.2 a,b,c,d,e,f)

Heck, in 2006 a proposal was submitted which would have allowed players to stop by a college on the way to a tournament and have on-campus contact. It was defeated.

On the other hand, electronic corrspondence may be sent to a player who is not at the competition site.

Again, the player is not at risk. Let the college ccoaches decide how much contact they are willing to have.

what is the rule for incoming juniors who are at the tournament?

can coaches talk to them at all?

I am pretty sure that they can talk to us parents anytime?

There are a lot of college coaches here in Marietta this week. Most get the scout packet that has all the players contact information. We never worry about what the college coaches and MLB scouts are doing, but anytime there is an event with this much talent there are many agents. You can call them advisors for the sake of being legal, but we know most of them and they make their living being an agent! We actually like and respect some of these agents. Others are like your proverbial snake oil salesman. Problem is... there are not enough rules to regulate that industry at these huge events.

The college coaches are stuck with all the rules. The players come to these events because of the large number of college coaches and pro scouts. Not many come here to impress an agent. Then again impressing anyone is a good thing.

Note: We talked to one small DI coach. He said he comes because there are some 2,000 players here that can help his program and the big guys don't have room for all of them.

I really wish college coaches didn't have all those rules. It would be so much better for everyone, including parents and players. Then again, those same rules actually help coaches at times. Without the rules, their time would be spent talking rather than watching.

58,

Off-campus contact is not permitted until July 1 of the summer between junior and senior years.

To talk with them, you can e-mail, you can dial the phone (they cannot), or you can make an "unofficial" (i.e., you pay the freight) visit to their campus.

Face-to-face contact at WWBA for an underclassmen is not kosher. It does happen, however, sometimes because people don't realize you're an underclassmen, sometimes because the rules are so confusing that everyone gets their wires crossed, and in rare cases because someone has no respect for the rules.

Is email permitted to a player at the event?

If not, then I suppose that the advice to email a coach to tell them where and when you will be playing is still good - but players should not expect a response.

So this week is the 17U WWBA/ Grad class of 2010, and it is after July 1. Therefore, they can talk to upcoming seniors all they want, and maybe sneak on the other side of the dugout to catch a good 2011 too after warming up

Now I wonder why PG schedules this event at this time? Make sense to anyone? Makes a ton of sense! But, as these kids start commiting earlier and earlier, there are probably 200 kids already commited prior to playing in this tournament (again though, VERBAL COMMITMENT is non-binding).

Folks,
There seems to be a pervasive feeling here that contact between a D1 coach and upperclassman is OK.

It's not.

By rule contact is prohibited for any prospective student athlete--even if a player has already signed a NLI. If a player has signed a NLI, his parent/guardian may have contact, but not the player. Contact is permitted on days for which the team has no game. There are additional restrictions during travel to the tournament or practice site. In this context contact includes telephone calls and notes.

Email is OK, provided the player is not at the competition site, or else has been "released". [Today's cell phone technology make the restriction on location impractical, of course.]

I'd love to hear that this opinion is wrong, but please read 13.1.7.2, and 13.1.6.8d in the D1 manual.

These rules are a little like speed limits-- frequently broken.

First step: player must be "rising senior" and the time after July 1 of the rising senior year


Secondly it is my understanding that coaches can talk to the player after the the event is done---there is a gray area here too--is it over for the player when his team is eliminated or when the entire event is completed

All right, here's the rules: Rising seniors aren't exempted. I agree with TRhit about the gray area once a player has completed his participation.

13.1.7.2 Practice or Competition Site. Recruiting contact may not be made with a prospective student-athlete prior to any athletics competition in which the prospective student-athlete is a participant during the day or days of competition, even if the prospective student-athlete is on an official or unofficial visit. Contact includes the passing of notes or verbally relaying information to a prospective student-athlete by a third party on behalf of an institutional staff member and telephone calls. Such contact shall be governed by the following:
(a) Contact shall not be made with the prospective student-athlete at any site prior to the contest on the day or days of competition;

(b) Contact shall not be made with the prospective student-athlete from the time he or she reports on call (at the direction of his or her coach or comparable authority) and becomes involved in competition-related activity (e.g., traveling to an away-from-home game) to the end of the competition even if such competition-related activities are initiated prior to the day or days of competition;

(c) Contact shall not be made after the competition until the prospective student-athlete is released by the appropriate institutional authority and departs the dressing and meeting facility;

(d) Contact shall not be made with the prospective student-athlete involved in competition that requires participation on consecutive days (e.g., a tournament) until after his or her final contest is completed and he or she is released by the appropriate institutional authority and leaves the dressing and meeting facility. Contact shall not be made with a prospective student-athlete involved in a tournament that is not conducted on consecutive days until after his or her final contest is completed on a day before a break in the days of the tournament and he or she is released by the appropriate institutional authority and leaves the dressing and meeting facility;

(e) Contact with a prospective student-athlete who is on an extended road trip (e.g., traveling with a team from one contest or event to another), is permitted at the conclusion of a competition and prior to the commencement of travel to the next competition, provided he or she has been released by the appropriate institutional authority and departs the dressing and meeting facility; and

(f) Coaching staff members may not send electronic correspondence to a prospective student-athlete while he or she is on call for competition at the competition site (e.g., arena, stadium). Coaching staff members may send general correspondence (including electronic correspondence) to a prospective student-athlete while he or she is on call and not at the competition site or while the prospective student-athlete is at any location once he or she has been released by the appropriate authority, provided the general correspondence is sent directly to a prospective student-athlete (e.g., the front desk of the hotel, the prospective student-athlete’s personal fax machine) and there is no additional party (e.g., camp employee, coach) involved in disseminating the correspondence (see Bylaw 13.4).

13.1.7.2.1 Effect of Violation. Violations of this bylaw shall be considered institutional violations per Constitution 2.8.1; however, such violations shall not affect the prospective student-athlete’s eligibility.

From 13.1.6.8 Contacts After National Letter of Intent Signing or Other Written Committment—Sports Other Than Women’s Basketball and Football.
(d) Contact at the site of a prospective student-athlete’s competition shall continue to be governed by the provisions of Bylaw 13.1.7.2. Note: contact with the prospective student-athlete’s relatives or legal guardians at the site of the prospective student-athlete’s competition shall be permitted.

OK, I suppose most people are wondering just how all these underclassmen verbally commit so early. Of course, sometimes they attend camps, but that is not what usually happens. They're almost always identified long before they attend a college camp.

I probably shouldn't be posting this, but then again, that is what this site is for.

Here is how it works...

Coach has identified a prospect that he is very interested in making an offer to. By rule... Coach can't talk to the underclassmen. Coach can talk to other people who are very familiar with and can actually talk to the player.

Very simple... The "middleman" tells the player, to call the recruiter and gives the player the coach/recruiters cell #.

Player then calls the coach who is expecting his call... Recruiter and player are now talking turkey! Player will often be asked to attend camp, but understands why he is going to the camp. Not hardly your normal camper!

Before everyone starts looking for recruiter's cell phone numbers and bombarding them with calls... This only works when someone tells the player to call the recruiter.

BTW, This happens a lot! and results in many early verbal commitments.

PGStaff, very good description of how it oftentimes unfolds.....

quote:

Coach has identified a prospect that he is very interested in making an offer to. By rule... Coach can't talk to the underclassmen. Coach can talk to other people who are very familiar with and can actually talk to the player.

Very simple... The "middleman" tells the player, to call the recruiter and gives the player the coach/recruiters cell #.

Saw this happen myself.....in the middle of a tourney, before one of my son's games, a college coach approached my son's select coach and asked him to convey an offer. After the game, the select coach related my son's response back to the college coach and discussions proceeded from there.

quote:

Player will often be asked to attend camp, but understands why he is going to the camp. Not hardly your normal camper!

Yep!

Son attended a Big 12 camp and it was very obvious who the "anointed ones" were. They got extra playing time during scrimmages and the recruiting coordinator joked with them throughout the two days, while pretty much ignoring the rest. The other 100 campers didn't have a chance...

In addition to all the back and forth described above; You can visit the coaches on their campus any time on unofficial visits. Once you know the coaches are interested GO VISIT! Verbal offers and commitments happen on these unofficial visits too.

What PG Staff describes is exactly how it worked with my son. After a high school playoff game we were at a restaurant and son's summer coach texted son that "Coach ________ wants to talk to you. Here is his number." After that the summer coach would frequently call or text that the college coach wanted son to call him. The college coach and summer coach would even text each other, talking about my son, and then the summer coach would forward these texts to son.

Infield,
I've seen kids who weren't "on the radar" get interest at college camps. Admittedly it is easier for a pitcher than a position player. Velocity and movement gets noticed regardless.

quote:

Infield, I've seen kids who weren't "on the radar" get interest at college camps. Admittedly it is easier for a pitcher than a position player. Velocity and movement gets noticed regardless.

Absolutely. I agree, and I will say that my son got his first inkling of interest from the school he's currently playing for while attending a camp there. I should have added that after attending this Big 12 camp, my son did get recommended to a feeder JUCO. But after observing the very special attention that about a half-dozen prospects received at the camp, it was obvious that they were the ones -- not my son-- who would be signing with the Big 12 school in November. Perhaps if he had been a pitcher throwing 92 he would have suddenly gotten "on the radar" at the camp. Most likely, however, they would have known about him in advance and he too would have been one of the "anointed ones" at the camp.

CAdad n infield,

I really enjoy your insightful posts. And I should have been on this site long ago as the info is very valuable.

As for camps in socal, well they are getting extremely expensive, but I have seen pitchers get offers soon after and the guys that square up the ball a few times get serious looks, so yes they are looking and if someone does something special that moment well it could be their day. And this goes for seniors that are attending.

I have a question......My son attended the 17u WWBA in Marietta. By the time we made it home he had letters in the mail. He is a 2012 graduate so this correspondence seems early. From what you guys are saying....we need to complete the forms and send them back even though we have not taken the ACT or have answers for some of the questions. He was aked to contact the coach or email if we had any questions. Does this mean we should make contact with the coach? They asked us to let them know where his next event would be. His next event would be his high school season. We don't know if everyone just gets tons of letters or they do really want to follow him. I guess what I am wondering is...should we take this serious or is it just routine for colleges to send these forms out. Thanks.

BBB08, congrats on the interest in your son! If he just finished his freshman year and he was able to attract interest at a 17U event, that is a very good sign.

quote:

I guess what I am wondering is...should we take this serious or is it just routine for colleges to send these forms out.

The answer may depend on the school. However, it would be very wise to take EVERY inquiry seriously and respond to every school who contacted your son. (Reply even to the schools your son has no interest in; between now and fall 2012, the coaches at those schools may get jobs at a school your son is interested in.)

Definitely have your son fill out all the questionnaires and email each coach to thank him for his interest. Have your son tell them that the WWBA was the last event for this summer, but add that he will send him his spring schedule (and summer schedule for 2010) once they become available.

Meanwhile, here are some things your son can do:
* Work out consistently to get stronger
* Work hard in school to ensure that his grades are acceptable to schools who recruit him
* Sometime during junior year, take a prep course for the ACT/SAT

Best wishes to your son!

BBB,

Just curious... Why is your son not playing until next spring? Is he a football player?

If someone asks you to contact the recruiter and gives you a phone number I would take the time to make that call. That call might answer a lot of your questions.

Best of luck

First thing to keep in mind and this is critical----any contact is positive especially if they are not "camp invites"---fill out and and all questionnaires because you never know what will be the final conclusion


Go for it !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
All right, here's the rules:

Do you have a link to these rules?

Here are the Division I rules. This is a large .pdf file.

Division I Manual

Is there a downside to verbally committing the summer between 10th and 11th grades? thanks

quote:

Originally posted by pl8blkrmom:
Here are the Division I rules. This is a large .pdf file.

Division I Manual

Oh great, 431 pages! I'll be sure to have it read and fully understood before Fall Ball starts!

quote:

Is there a downside to verbally committing the summer between 10th and 11th grades? thanks

There can be. If you commit after your sophomore year, by the time freshman year of college rolls around, the coaching staff of that college might have changed. In addition, when you verbally commit that early, your remove yourself from consideration by all other programs. If you change your mind later about what program you want to play for, you're pretty much stuck.