There’s a lotta gold in this interview:
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I of course do embrace analytics and use it with guys I work with but I can understand old school guys who hate this. Sports used to be that thing where you could get away from school and math so guys who are not good in stuff like math and so on feel like something is taken away from them because that escape Island of sports no longer is free of school stuff, so what else is there?
But there really is no turning back of time unless you want to be an Amish or so.
I think it’s more about the game going way too far in the analytics direction. There needs to be some balance.
There needs to be a balance between analytics and can the player actually play the game. Exit velocity doesn’t matter if you don’t make contact. A 6.5 sixty doesn’t matter if you can’t get on base.
Is pro ball really already that way though? In amateur ball you see some outrageous stuff (I have seen one training facility promoting batspeed training with guys with terrible swings showing a guy with bat drag and other flaws saying he is like +6 mph) but I feel that most guys in pro ball still have played.
There are a handful of guys like ochart and boddy but really most coaches have played.
Thanks for sharing. Bryan Price is speaking from the heart. How many of us have felt the same way about our jobs? I know I have and I recently made a job change. How many of us have left millions of dollars on the table? I know I have not. This was a very refreshing and honest interview (from an insider) of the state of professional baseball in America. I don't doubt a word of it.
Since the article is behind a paywall, can someone give us a quick summary of what it says?
I agree Fenway, it seems he lost his passion. But the fact is that every industry is in a constant state of change and evolution. I started in the computer business when the original IBM PC was how you got your work done, now computing is in the cloud or in the palm of your hand. Baseball is no different. My son is amazed when he watches broadcasts of old games from the 80's (sorry, but we've seen 1986 Game 6 of Mets vs Red Sox more times than I can remember). He points out how different things are today - bunting style, how outfielders catch, but mostly how they swung the bat back then. I don't know why Price has such a problem with this, complaining about launch angle swings for example. But if he has in fact lost his passion and is unable to give 100% it's probably best he walk away.
Smitty
1986 Mets team was “out of control “ when Dave Johnson wrote Jeffries one of our players from the Japan trip, name on the lineup card. Tim Treffel cross out his name and said “do we want to win”!.
Gooden, Strawberry, Carter, it was a game of life.
During the College World Series with 3 Rose Bowl QB and one Hockey player and Korean Vet. We all knew how to win! No hitting instructors needed.
Bob
@anotherparent posted:Since the article is behind a paywall, can someone give us a quick summary of what it says?
It's available must have opened the paywall.
@anotherparent posted:Since the article is behind a paywall, can someone give us a quick summary of what it says?
I read it here:
@Smitty28 posted:I agree Fenway, it seems he lost his passion. But the fact is that every industry is in a constant state of change and evolution. I started in the computer business when the original IBM PC was how you got your work done, now computing is in the cloud or in the palm of your hand. Baseball is no different. My son is amazed when he watches broadcasts of old games from the 80's (sorry, but we've seen 1986 Game 6 of Mets vs Red Sox more times than I can remember). He points out how different things are today - bunting style, how outfielders catch, but mostly how they swung the bat back then. I don't know why Price has such a problem with this, complaining about launch angle swings for example. But if he has in fact lost his passion and is unable to give 100% it's probably best he walk away.
I think his issue is less the changes of the game but that he can't make his own decisions anymore.
The data driven methods mean a manager or pitching coach can't go as much by gut feel anymore but the data and front office tell him what to do.
I'm pro data but I can understand that an old school coach feels kinda castrated when he can't really make decisions on their own anymore but are essentially just a mouth piece of the front office and analytics department.
There simply has been a power shift, not that a manager or pitching coach has no power anymore but he has given up decision power to the analytics department.
That is quite a change. I think Kyle boddy described that in an article he wrote, he said that teams had analytics departments for quite some time now but it used to be more of a suggestion and some coaches would delete the analytics emails without reading them. That has changed and now front offices of successful teams are enforcing that managers follow the analytics suggestions or they lose their job.
That is the real issue that those old school baseball people have, it is not old men yelling at clouds because of launch angle and bunts but it is about an actual loss of power and being able to make your own decisions.
For a guy that used to be able to make decisions to get degraded to a glorified mouth piece of the front office is a tough thing.
But it is the way every business goes, away from charismatic leaders and daring decision makers to data driven process oriented management
Price is on the side of pitchers being better because they know how to pitch, rather than because they throw hard. But at the same time, it seems like a debate between playing baseball "better" (i.e. higher velo, fewer hits, more effective defense) vs. "watchability."
And he doesn't like shifts - why? Because there's less action? I'm curious, why didn't anyone figure out shifts before now? Was it just because they didn't have as much data? Surely an intuitive baseball guy could have grasped it before this.
I'm not sure I understand the argument. Do people like Price want baseball to be "less good" but "more watchable"?
Which means, it's not an art, it's entertainment.
Hitting was already hard enough, but throw in the shifts and increased bullpen usage (and specialization) and its gotten ridiculous. Going for power ("Launch Angle Swings") is a rational response to the way the game is played, as it has become too hard to string together a few hits in order to score. MLB should limit the shift and somehow limit either pitching changes or roster moves so that hitters are sometimes batting against pitchers who are not at their best. Then we'll see more balls in play, fewer Ks and more action.
@anotherparent posted:I'm curious, why didn't anyone figure out shifts before now?
shifts have been in use, off and on, since the 1920’s. They were prevalent in the 1940’s & 50’s against Ted Williams
why weren’t they more in use? Because players back then could hit to all fields, as well as lay down a bunt and beat it out.
@Dominik85 posted:But it is the way every business goes, away from charismatic leaders and daring decision makers to data driven process oriented management
There is a fair amount of truth in this statement. The question becomes when it is to much? Apple wasn't able to be Apple without Steve Jobs...I think the game is out of balance.
@K9 posted:MLB should limit the shift and somehow limit either pitching changes or roster moves so that hitters are sometimes batting against pitchers who are not at their best. Then we'll see more balls in play, fewer Ks and more action.
Or hitters could go the other way against the shift. What would Rod Carew, Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose etc do today vs the shift? My guess is they would be feasting on it and hitting .400 every year.
Edited to add:
But would the front office now tell hitters like Carew and Gwynn that they will be replaced by 30 HR per year hitters because they are more statistically valuable? I think this is the issue Price may have with the trend towards analytics.
@anotherparent posted:I'm not sure I understand the argument. Do people like Price want baseball to be "less good" but "more watchable"?
Which means, it's not an art, it's entertainment.
Interesting observation. After some self reflection I asked myself why I am enjoying the NCAA tournament so much (while rarely watching any MLB games this year). My answer to myself was that I'm enjoying the NCAA tournament so much because I never know what's going to happen. Every time I leave the room I miss scoring or a lead change. Few leads are safe, even in the late innings. Yes, there are more balls in play and on-field action that makes a huge difference, but it's also the higher probability of mistakes (and heroics) that make it more exciting, and to me more watchable.
@Smitty28 posted:Or hitters could go the other way against the shift. What would Rod Carew, Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose etc do today vs the shift? My guess is they would be feasting on it and hitting .400 every year.
Edited to add:
But would the front office now tell hitters like Carew and Gwynn that they will be replaced by 30 HR per year hitters because they are more statistically valuable? I think this is the issue Price may have with the trend towards analytics.
My guess is that the singles hitters of yesterday wouldn't face a shift very much because they sprayed the ball around and took advantage of the bigger parks and spacious outfields of that era. As you note in your edit, the financial incentives have changed over time. In 1979 Rod Carew was the highest paid player in the game, the last time a non power hitter held that distinction. If those guys were coming up now they would probably have a different approach.
Whatever the MLB game is doing it has me turning away. Outside opening day I haven’t watched more than a few innings a week. When I do have it on it’s background noise while I’m reading where I occasionally look up. I know a lot of guys who grew up playing the game through college who feel the same way.
Going to a MLB game live is a different story. But in the past three years I’ve gone less frequently. A few weeks ago I was already in the city and offered a free ticket. I preferred to get home.
The Sox have two starters hitting under .200. The stop gap they signed to fix part of the problem is hitting .104 the last time I looked. What MLBer hits .104? And they’re one of the top teams in baseball. That tells me all I need to know about how entertaining the game is.
Since the NCAA conference championship games through today I haven’t even thought to watch a MLB game. This includes the recent Sox-Yankees series.