One For The Coaches?

Hey Coach. I have written in the past about experiences in game calling. As an assistant in both high school and a volunteer in Juco, I hadn't seen much of it. Its usually confidence by the head coach that dictates who will call the game. To say the least I haven't found too many head coaches that will give away that responsibility. I commend you for your hard work in this area. It will undoubtedly put you ahead of others. It takes just that, hard work and practice time with the staff and catchers. I preach game calling to young catchers during instruction, but most repeat what I've learned in the past, that their coaches always call the signs. I tell them to return to me with an innings worth of pitches the next time I see them. I want them to tell me what was called, location, count and why they think it was called and what was the outcome. We are making great progress with some. Here's to one of the great guys out there, Coach Merc.

Unless it is a special situation where the coaches feel they need to interject their thoughts our catchers call the games

We do though have signals for the catcher when we want a pitch out or a specific pitch location

Three hole batting, one out, and man at 1B the count is 2-0 .

What do you call?

You don't want to go 3-0 then you might have to throw FB over plate.

You don't walk the three hole and bring up 4 hole with 1 out and men at 1st and second.

Does you catcher know what to call? You have worked the pens and you know the pitcher and you have the hitting charts and your looking at the hitters set up.

I say the coaches call.........

Great article in the Coaching Management Magazine on "Calling Catchers". Quotes from the Head Coaches of Minnesota and Princeton about their catchers and calling pitches. It allows them as coaches to concentrate more on defensive positioning and baserunners while the pitching coach can pay more attention to his pitcher rather then the hitters. It states that it takes time to grow the knowledge, but the rewards are huge. Standing or sitting in the dugout is probably one of the worst viewpoints. The catcher gets to see the hitters set up as well as any movements/ adjustments he makes during the delivery.

we call them during the spring - we do review pitching charts with pitcher/catcher pregame so they have a feel of what we are trying to do with each hitter. certain pitchers we let shake us off by stepping off rubber. usually when they step off on us we'll let them go with what they feel comfortable with but at times we dont. either way we discuss/communicate/teach/learn from each other between innings.
during the summer we let the catchers call the game. we also discuss/communicate/teach/learn between innings.

swingbuster

Most #3 hole hitters we face will be hacking at 2-0 and 3-0 in most circumstnces--we think our pitchers are better than their hitters so we challenge them with strikes--no nibbling but good location and movement-- you have to know your players and we believe that allowing them freedom builds confidence-- if they make a mistake it won't happen twice because the catcher and pitcher have learned--yes we have been hurt by this but in the long run the pitcher and catcher become better players and sharpen their understanding of the game and isnt that we , as coaches, want !

I let my players call the pitches since they were 10YO. But almost every practice, we would talk a little bit about pitch strategy, pitch selection, reading the batter, etc.

The players will never learn while the coaches are calling the pitches.

Besides, even when a coach calls the pitches, the pitcher will not always hit his spot. Even the pros miss a lot.

And I have seen plenty of occasions when the pitcher makes a gutsier call than I would have - and nearly every time they succeeded.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
Three hole batting, one out, and man at 1B the count is 2-0 .

What do you call?

You don't want to go 3-0 then you might have to throw FB over plate.

You don't walk the three hole and bring up 4 hole with 1 out and men at 1st and second.

Does you catcher know what to call? You have worked the pens and you know the pitcher and you have the hitting charts and your looking at the hitters set up.

I say the coaches call.........

Change up with pitcher A

Curve ball with pitcher B

Fastball with pitcher C

There is no one answer.

Who calls depends entirely on the quality of catcher. And, you won't have a quality catcher until he gets to call em.

Texan
WE like to believe that the catcher and pitcher have a better feel for what is happening than any of our coaches--again we are back to that "confidence" factor---

We talk with out pitcher and catcher combo every inning when they come to dugout so as to get an idea of the "feel of the game" that they have.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:


Change up with pitcher A

Curve ball with pitcher B

Fastball with pitcher C

There is no one answer.

Who calls depends entirely on the quality of catcher. And, you won't have a quality catcher until he gets to call em.

Have to go with Linear on this one. But I would add, don't forget the pitcher. The pitcher should be able to shake off any sign. He should also know & read the batters. He should know what stuff he has at any point in the game.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
Does you catcher know what to call? You have worked the pens and you know the pitcher and you have the hitting charts and your looking at the hitters set up.

I say the coaches call.........

Who has been catching the pitcher in those bullpens & in all of the games? And doesn't the pitcher know what he has working on a given day? Doesn't he know himself?

TR's approach is excellent IMHO. Teach them & let them learn. Discuss between innings as needed. Those players will learn a lot.

{Gosh, this has got to be a record. Agreeing with Linear & TR on the same day. }

Texan

I am not sure how to take that!!!

In good humor, only as was intended.

I am questioning whether the catcher is computing all of this....

Hope so. In the course of a HS 7 inning game the odds can stack against you if good decisions are not made.

A good time out here might be indicated in a close game late to make sure they are aware of the situation. A GB double play would be great. The 3 hole is not liekly to swing at a ball at 2-0 so your looking for a swing here maybe?

I guess it is the pitchers best pitch that can draw a swing and limit the risk. Cannot afford to nibble corners?

Some good stuff here and I am really enjoying the opinions. However guys, watch some NCAA game this year and count how many coaches are calling signs from the dugout, and how many times the catcher looks over. In Posada's 1st two years in the bigs, his pitches were called for him, Joe Kerrigan has called many pitches as a coach. Sometimes its just policy, But I am with all of you who preach instruction early on. That way even if a kid moves up and doesn't get to call right away, he will know how and can prove it to the coach. The coach should gain confidence in the kid and let him try.

Just a thought that you too may have noticed. there are coaches who call pitches and the pitch they call MUST be the one that gets thrown. From my experiences, pitchers get a much better feel from a catcher calling pitches since if he's not comfortble with the pitch he can shake it off....some coaches just won't tolerate a kid thinking...

I call all our pitches during our league games and state tournaments, but we try to let our catchers call pitches in non-league games. I want them to get a feel for how to call a game - but I also know that I have more information about the hitters we face (based on past seasons and scouting I do) and the background as a minor league pitcher that allows me to know the needs for a particular situation better than my catcher could.
I can see where either side of this argument makes sense...and I hope someday I have a great catcher to turn the reins over to!

P.S. I allow my pitchers to shake it off if they want - my pitch call is a suggestion, but they are allowed (without repercusions) to throw another pitch...until they prove consistently that they don't know what they are doing (or until we go to the pen instead).

CK, please don't take the following the wrong way. But as a coach, isn't it your job to teach? IMHO, it is.

Why can't you share that information on the hitters with your battery? They need to learn how to retain it & use it. Why can't you teach them the needs for a particular situation?

Hop out of that box called "we've always done it this way before."

Kudos to you for letting the pitcher shake off. I have known HS coaches who would not let the pitcher shake off anything. Stupid, IMHO.

Texan, have you ever seen the dumfounded look on a high school soph when he hears that the signs are changing 6 games into the season and he doesn't know the original ones yet. The individual has also got to be able to obtain this information, store it, then use it without pressure during a game situation. I have seen both types of player, one who is lost and one who can handle it all and many different types in between. Trust is a big issue for coaches.

Actually, I haven't. I haven't run across a catcher who couldn't handle signals. Maybe I've just been lucky.

I have seen pitchers who are far better at calling pitches than catchers. So they sometimes end up shaking off a fair number of signals. But eventually the catcher learns & the number of shakeoffs decreases.

I guess we go against the grain from the posts here. I call most of the pitches. We do have a "code" that turns everything over to the catcher. I understand all of the presented arguments. I simply think it is easier and better for the team if I call a game based upon our scouting reports. Example:

1. ##### (# 16) – Straight up. Was #9 hitter when we played last game. Clint play a 3. I don’t think we should try to take the bunt away to begin with. At bats 1st game - , BB, K, 6-4 At bats 1st game – k, f-2 (.333 BA, 5 doubles, 12 RBIs.1 sac – he has 14 k’s)
2. ##### (# 21) – One to pull. Was #3 hitter last time we played. He is looking to pull everything and be the star. At bats – 5-3, f-6, 6-4, BB. We will look to pitch away. We will have to see if he can pull James. 1st game – f-7, 6-4 (.361 BA, 8 doubles, 3 HR, 20 RBIs, 2 sacs)
3. ##### (#13) – Straight up. Also pull hitter. Will swing at 1st pitch fastball. Aggressive hitter – last game swung at every 1st pitch fastball strike. He hit second the last time we played. At bats – f-8, f-7, 1st game – double left gap, f-3 on slider. (.337 BA, 5 doubles, 3 HRs, 0 sacs)
4. ##### (#15) – Straight up but might go one to pull in game. He hit 7th last game. At bats – single up the middle 2b side, single down 3rd base line, 6-3, At bats 1st game f-8, HBP backdoor slider– (.472 BA, 4 doubles, only 36 at bats, 1 sac)
5. #### (# 3) – Straight up but might have to go one to pull. He hit 8th the last time we played. At bats, 6-4-3 dp, 2b down the line, k on slider. At bats 1st game f-4, backwards K. (.308 BA, 9 doubles, 1 HR, 2 sacs, he has 17 k’s)
6. #### (#10) – HE HIT 4TH LAST TIME WE PLAYED!!! Straight up. At bats – 1-3, f-9, f-9, 6-4-3 dp. At bats 1st game backwards K on FB, BB (.288 BA, 7 doubles, 2 sacs)
7. ##### (# 5) – Straight up but was up the middle most of game. He hit 9th last game. At bats – bb, e-4, 4-3. 1st game we only threw FBs away and he went 3u, 3u. (.264 BA, 1 HR, 3 sacs 9 k’s)
8. ##### (# 43) – We will pitch and play away. No speed! He hit 5th last time we played. At bats – BB, 1b up the middle, 1b, 4 hole – hit slider up. (.477 BA, 6 doubles, 2 HRs) Troll will be key to containing ######. If we stay away, he doesn’t have as much pop. Play medium until he proves he can burn us. ##### didn’t hit first game.
9. #### (# 17) – He didn’t play against us the last time. Vs East at bats - e-6, bb, e-6. (.283, HE HAS 46 AT BATS) Didn’t hit 1st game.


Keys to the game:

1. James, we were behind in the count 17 of 30 at bats. We have to get ahead and save your arm.
2. We need to score early and often.
3. We are gambling that when they yell out ##### or any other combined number, the indicator for where the ball will be thrown is the second number. When they yelled this out (#######) against us, the ball was thrown to the pitcher.
4. We will have to be disciplined enough to give up one of our weekend nights for the good of the team. I’m asking that you all get to bed early. REMEMBER, WE LOST TO BELLEVILLE EAST ON A SATURDAY WHEN YOU ALL STAYED UP LATE PLAYING CARDS!


Along with spray charts etc. I have more resources in front of me to make better decisions and so... I know most of you disagree. JMHO!

Coach K
In the final four last year we played a team that had a very good coach( eventual State Champs). Our guys called the pitches. Bottom of 7 we are up one run. I had told the pitcher and catcher the week before that 6 of their guys had signed. I said "don't be afraid to come inside with your fb in a critical situation. They can hit away good; they work on that all the time .


The catcher call 2-2 FB away with the 3 hole up and one man on base. The guy was sitting on it and hit it over the RC fence. We threw to the fat part of the bat and lost the game with a walk off HR.

It was not the pitch I would have called and I look back and I haven't forgotten that. Yes he could have taken the inside pitch to LF but I feel like we got patterned and out guessed. It is hard enough to hold runners , block the ball up etc and etc

Playing against one of the better teams in the country. Cleanup hitter at the plate. First pitch c/u. Whiff. Strike one. Second pitch c/u. Whiff. Strike two.

I'm thinking, but not saying, "Okay, mix it up now. Don't throw the same pitch three times in a row."

Third pitch - c/u, and you could feel the breeze all the way into the stands. Strike three.

Not the pitch I would have called, but it worked.

i said this earlier but we call pitches during the high school season. we do allow our experienced pitchers to step off if they dont like the pitch we called. we let them throw their pitch. we always discuss this after the game in a learning discussion. 2 way learning. we learn what they were thinking and if its a bad choice they learn why.
we always allow pitchers to ask why about our pitch selection.
during the summer we let our pitchers call the game. the catcher gives the sign but the pitcher actually "shakes off" til he gets what he wants. again we discuss this after the game.
i see coaches all the time blame the catcher when a big hit is given up. i see this all the time. dont blame the catcher. call the pitch and take responsibility or keep your mouth shut when the catcher "screws up"

How do you say ...Location, location, location. I don't care who calls the pitch, if it's not thrown to the right spot anything can happen.

And sometimes a miss can result in a bad thing, and sometimes in a good thing...

I think it is important to teach catchers and pitchers to call pitches, and to give them opportunities to do so. Some cathcers work better with pitchers than others and vice versa.

Another part of this conversation has been about knowing the hitters.....and that is pretty important......but I believe that a pitcher must learn what his own strengths are......pitching to his strengths, in my opinion, is more important than pitching to the hitters weaknesses.

Swingbuster.....you give me a good pitcher against that #3 hitter with a 2-0 count and he should be able to throw a good changeup......and be successful.......that is what pitchers do; they pitch.

I firmly believe in having the catchers call the game. I think that coaches so often forget that the level we are coaching these boys at is, hopefully, just another stop along their journey through this game. We all want to win in a serious way, and sometimes that manifests itself by feeling the need to control every aspect of the game; and calling pitches is one of the most important aspects. Give the game to your catcher and he might make a mistake and you'll lose the game. OH NO! Give the game to your catcher and let him learn how to do it better, and maybe you'll get to watch that same kid in a game 2, 4, or even 10 years from now.

If you buy into the thinking that your catcher will be playing at a higher level when he is finished with your program, why wouldn't you have him learn to be a complete catcher and call his own game? Sure, he'll make mistakes. He'll survive it just fine and chances are most coaches will too. When was the last time you lost a game due to a bone-headed decision by your catcher? Think hard, because in most cases you can't remember the details of that game with total clarity. In other words, you got over it. However, if your catcher is any good he learned from the experience. If the cost of teaching your catcher and helping him develop into a more complete player is losing an occasional game, I'm willing to make that tradeoff.

My catcher's have called many, many of their own games. Sure they make mistakes, but they are ahead of nearly all of their peers because of what they're learning each and every game. At son's high school, the coaches call all the pitches because "you can't trust the kids to know how to do it". I've seen the coach call pitches to certain hitters that they've seen less than 10 times, and call the wrong pitch and have it crushed. Unfortunately, our catchers have seen some of these same hitters dozens and dozens of times over the years and know what gets them out. In some cases, these kids are friends and have known each others weaknesses for years, so the catcher should know just how to pitch the hitter, but "coach knows best". Coach is actually doing a big dis-service to his catcher, pitcher and entire team because of his own ego or insecurity. Same guy has called 5 or 6 consecutive fastballs to a kid who can't hit an offspeed pitch if his life depended on it. Coach doesn't always know best.

You mean coaches aren't perfect at calling pitches??

I personally call most of our pitches. I do take things on an individual basis with our catchers. The more experienced I feel that a catcher is, the more I am able to turn him loose. I chart each hitter and make comments, our catcher looks at the chart between innings and knows our plan. When I start seeing that the catcher and I are on the same page I turn it over to him. The reason I take control early is that I see too often a catcher that patterns their pitching approach. You must rely on the stregths of the individual pitcher and what the hitter's history demonstrates. I feel that it is my job the know these things better than anyone on the team. But, with that said the constant goal is the help that catcher get to the point where they can take over themselves. Any time that we have a game in control I give it to the catcher to see how he responds, this is his opportunity to demonstrate his learning curve.

Grateful
Swingbuster.....you give me a good pitcher against that #3 hitter with a 2-0 count and he should be able to throw a good changeup......and be successful.......that is what pitchers do; they pitch

Thats my call there too

The no. 3 slot will not swing at 2-0 changeups at most levels. If pitcher can throw for strike, defensive coach can rest easy.

IMHO,
Shep

well shep

we are 3-0 now...what next

Swing

Sorry been reading instead of flapping chops for a change.

Just saw post about 1 minute ago.

Just sitting here wondering how KK-LHP could possibly be better than teammate CR at 97-98mph. Did you teach these players? How about little CR? Are there any more?

Linear is in big time trouble after draft if you did.

If the board will allow me to share true but great story. Believe pitcher can be found in landscaping business up around Kennesaw College or Marietta, GA and will verify_LOL(see below)

Bout that 3-0 count. No. 3 hitter will be in control and can look for pitch in certain zone if coach has that much confidence in hitter, he should turn him loose and not hold him back.

Reminds of an actual game situation I found myself in in Atlanta playing for Central Ga Mudcats in Stan Musial league while playing at Sprayberry HS outside of Atlanta a couple of years after I was released from minors.(circa92)

Abercrombie twin pitching, Kennesaw College RHP in early 1990's, I'm hitting in 3 slot for one of the greatest teams, anywhere, I've ever seen. Twin RHP runs count to 3-0, keep in mind also, close game and he has been throwing in low 90s the entire game. Cliff Broxton, former NYY pitcher, coaching third. He and I had a deception plan in case it ever came up in game situation. He would hold up one finger as if to say, take one for the team. What do you think ole Ray Shepherd did with that pitch? Well, there is a road about 100 feet behind OF fence. Best looking FB Shep ever did see! Got excited! Hit that ball like I was scared to let the team down.lol

Russell Branyan, who was a 16 yr old prospect at the time, on third base when I hit the 3-0 said ball went over the road into another world-LOL

Thanks for letting me share, I mean bragg!!LOL

Shep

Great story....that is what you want do; to help kids do...create some memories like that

Texan-
In reply to your answer to me, we DO share information with our catchers. I agree that it is very important to TEACH how to call pitches, but I also think that it is important to WIN games! My catchers simply don't have the background in how to call a game to do so as well as I can...so I coach the game my way. This isn't to say that I never let them call (I indicated that in my earlier post)...but I take control of some pieces in order to help the entire team win games.

That is my point. You can WIN games with the players calling the pitches. I didn't get to see the state finals last year. But I am familiar with the team that came in second. Their coach does not call pitches & he has one of the winningest programs in the state over the last 20 or so years.

Of the several top tier select programs with which I am most familar (teams that go to the WWB & finish in the top five, one of which has won it a couple of times recently), the coaches don't call the pitches. And they WIN.

C'mon coach, turn loose....

Texan-
Point taken...but that is one point of view. That certainly doesn't make it right or wrong, just different. Some coaches have more experience, but may not have more specific experience in PITCHING...so I trust my instincts and my background more than I trust the knowledge and background of my 16-18 year old catchers. I can see both sides...but I'll stick to what works for me.

Awww, c'mon coach. Turn loose, one finger at a time. You can do it...


Heck, we'd all be sipping tea, speaking English & sending taxes to London if our forefathers said "But we've never done it that way before."