One point I've been reading and hearing that I feel like should be cleared up

I agree 100%. The decision should not be all about baseball. This is about going to college with baseball being the vehicle to help you get into a program and where you will experience the best time of your life.
My son went to a school with a very intense baseball program but with a lot of other stuff going on. I am not sure he would have been happy without that other stuff.

Best of luck to you.

I'm sure he enjoyed watching the most exciting 25 seconds of college football before every home game!

Yes he did. In fact that is where he was today for alumni weekend and he sent pics with his former teammates and friends for life. He said he felt like he never left. That is what it should be about, great memories not all about baseball.

JMO

Northwest, great post. Thanks for sharing. Let us know how it goes.

iNTERESTING THREAD YOU HAVE STARTED. iF YOU COULD, PLEASE give us a few more details such as why the school is so different than what you are use to, your year(i.e. freshman), and you feel the school you are at lacks compared with what you envisioned college to be?

quote:

northwest said....What I hear is that it shouldn't matter what the size of the school/city/atmosphere/etc. is like because there is absolutely no time for anything besides school and baseball. The thought seems to be with some people that school and baseball takes up ALL of your time and that there is no room for anything else.

This may be true at IVY league schools or other extremely high academic schools, however, being a college baseball player myself, and knowing many others, there is always going to be some free time. There will always be some time to get to hang out with frends, meet girls, go to football games, etc.

My point being here is you really need to look at campus atmosphere, size of school, commuter school vs college town, everything. You need to know whether you will be comfortable in the situation you will be putting yourself in.

I think your Academic Major (at ANY school) is the single biggest factor in determining the amount of discretionary time outside of baseball. I agree with everything else you've said.

It's really great to see the young men still playing ball come on here and speak from their hearts.

Great job Northwest. It has been said many times on here before that all the other elements should be looked at and to imagine yourself at a school if baseball was taken away. Would you still want to stay there? Your post is proof in the pudding that everything else does in fact matter in the decision making and shouldn't be overlooked.

Im sorry to hear that you are discontent at where you are now but it sounds like you are making a decision that will help you in the next chapter of your young baseball and hopefully, academic life.

Best of luck to you.



YGD

Good post Northwest. There are those that go from school to school pursing baseball, hoping they'll get drafted and find out that credits don't transfer, classes (baseball science) that don't count. Now they finish four years and have two more to go. And what happens when they don't get drafted......

Thanks for sharing Northwest, it is great to get the perspective of a student since you are really living what all of us parents just talk about.

It has been said here a million times, and can’t be repeated often enough but “select a school where you want to spend the next 4 years regardless of baseball”.

My son is playing at an academically and baseball demanding DIII and he certainly finds time for having fun. He has a girlfriend, he hangs with his suite mates, he goes to parties, and gets out and two steps from time to time - he is really enjoying his environment. That said his schedule is grueling; he is in the toughest academic semester he will have at the school and told last week there is no way he could have played D1 ball and taken engineering at many of the schools he was thinking about attending.

The moral to the story is to do your homework and don’t get all excited about the first (or only) offer.

Best of luck to you!

Fenway, I agree with you, however, he may be attending a JUCO. That presents itself with a whole set of different issues. Especially if it is a commuter school. If I am wrong I stand corrected.

What I get from the post is that baseball didn't consume most of his time as he expected and there wasn't much else to fill in the time. There has to be other interests and things to do. It doesn't take most players time to figure out that baseball will not be an option after graduation so there has to be more in the college experience.
The advice he gave is very wise, do not just pick a program for baseball alone, consider all options especially if it is far away.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:


It has been said here a million times, and can’t be repeated often enough but “select a school where you want to spend the next 4 years regardless of baseball”.

You can say it a million times or two million times or more, but it will still be dumb advice. It's wrong to assume what worked for your son should be standard, universal advice for everyone else, too. It just isn't so.

The truly top players who can plausibly talk about making a living as baseball players . . .
should not necessarily select a school where they "want to spend the next four years regardless of baseball"--they can go where they can best develop their rare talents in the three years before they get drafted a second time.

The marginal prospects with exceptional commitment to their dream of playing pro ball . . .
should not necessarily select a school where they "want to spend the next four years regardless of baseball"--they can look at the best baseball fit if they're willing to shift their total commitment to something else only after they hit a dead end in baseball and if family resources permit it.

The excellent students who know they're not pro prospects but are not willing to quit playing ball yet . . .
should not necessarily select a school where they "want to spend the next four years regardless of baseball"--it can be okay for them to make the baseball opportunity a deciding factor among their range of good academic options they've created for themselves.

The students who don't have a clear idea why they would even want go to college if not for baseball . . .
should not necessarily select a school where they "want to spend the next four years regardless of baseball"--they can go to any four-year school with reasonable general education requirements or to a JUCO, then reassess the baseball and academic situations in a couple years when their pre-frontal cortexes are a little more developed.

The late bloomers who get minimum offers as projects to their dream baseball schools . . .
should not necessarily select a school where they "want to spend the next four years regardless of baseball"--maybe it's okay for them to test their manhood and see if they can catch up with and hang with the early bloomers.

Thousands of other kids in thousands of other situations . . .
should not necessarily select a school where they "want to spend the next four years regardless of baseball"--they should make the right choice for their lives based on the totality of their circumstances.

BOF, I sincerely rejoice that your son's choice is working out so well academically, athletically, and socially for him. It sounds like he is truly in his element, and I hope he continues to flourish at Trinity. But please, please, please, stop acting like his decision criteria should also be right for everyone else.

Please stop acting like there is something wrong with the thousands of young men who just can't imagine the "regardless of baseball" scenario yet and who may have to make an extra stop or two along their journey. Did it never occur to you that sending a baseball-loving young man to the optimal "regardless of baseball" school could actually reduce his chance of academic and life success?

I'm not advocating choosing schools that are bad fits for academics or social life or any other factor. But I am saying it is impractical to expect everyone to fit the same mold. "Normal" encompasses a broad range.

Different strokes for different strokes, pursuit of happiness, variety is the spice of life, differences of opinion make markets and horse races possible, and so on.

Had to get that off my chest.

Best wishes,

You cannot underestimate how critical it is to have, or quickly learn, good time management skills, if you are playing a sport in college. Period. it can make all the difference in the world.

Needless to say the process of acclimating can differ amongst student-athletes and their expectations, as well as the process and knowledge of the school, program, coaches and academics on the front end.
One thing for sure: I have rarely heard a student-athlete at any level, JC, NAIA, D3, D2 or D1, who was not time management challenged in very meaningful ways between the classroom and baseball field and travel when the regular season started and during the entire period until that last game is played and last exam grade received.
Northwest, I believe you are at a JC in Nevada. To read your post is both encouraging and somewhat less than that.
I personally believe it is premature to make some of the conclusions you have without a full college season of experience. On the other hand, it sounds like you have found the JC isn't a "fit" and have shown the courage to say so and take action. I thought it was prudent to point out there
might" be more be more in the process relating to time management.

OP:
Where ever you decide to transfer, make sure they have good writing courses...and take them.

Swampboy,

My two cents....When you dive into the details like that, you are 100% correct. You are very wise. The challenge becomes how does someone recognize where they fit into these "categories" you've created. Most people are not that self-aware. Most of the old-timers or folks that have been through these decisions understand exactly what you are describing, but most through the benefit of hindsight. I know BOF means well, and he probably was thinking the same thing most of us were thinking.....how can I reduce risk if baseball doesn't work....but I'll defer to him.

This is some of the best advice I've ever read on this site. But, how do we help people become more self aware? Your advice can be optimal as an "all-in" philopshy if you understand where you fit in the different scenarios you've laid out. BOF's philosphy or advice come across as more of "hedging" philosphy...."if baseball doesn't work out, you'll always have your eduction" type of thought process which isn't necessairly a bad thing for the general population. I understand you are not talking about the general population. Your post has opened my eyes to that type of thinking, but my hang-up is the self awareness part. To follow your decision tree, I think the recruit and parent have to been incredidbly self aware. If I was a recruit I would consider both "philosphies" and apply it what I know or don't know about myself and my situtaion. If I know exactly where I fit in our your scenarios, I'm probably going to pursue that. But, if I'm unsure about my baseball level or projectability, or I want to have options then I think I'm going to hedge. JMO.


Northwest,

My orginal post got cut short (cut and paste) when I had to leave my house yesterday. I wish you well, and I hope you find happiness at your next stop. Good luck!

"My point being here is you really need to look at campus atmosphere, size of school, commuter school vs college town, everything. You need to know whether you will be comfortable in the situation you will be putting yourself in." (quote)


So true Northwest. Is your statement an example of hindsight? Did you and your parents go into this with your eyes wide SHUT?

I don't think you will find anyone here that disagrees with you. But, we learn by our experiences. So, I wish you the best of luck and hope someone reading this doesn't make your mistake.

I'm not going to suggest that you have cut and run too early. However, most people will find themselves in difficult situations at somepoint, where options are limited. It's up to you what you make of it!

Every player regardless of their ability or program choice SHOULD ask the question, "would I like to attend this school if baseball were not a factor?"

This allows for the student/athlete to see things from a perspective that others do without being a student athlete. This, IMO, would avoid many issues that any student would face later on, as presented by the OP, which would include or not be limited to campus atmosphere, size, location, small commuter program vs larger, rural or city, sports, in other words other things to do besides go to class and play baseball, which occupies your time but in most cases, especially in spring but not 100%. Of course area of study should be considered top priority, though IMO many don't know until after a year what exact area of study they wish to pursue.

This should have nothing to do with being a top player from ones class choosing one program over another to get them drafted in 3 years, but rather more important a very serious question to be asked by the player that does not have that ability as he enters college. What happens later on is all icing on the cake, IMO.

Before I comment, I don't believe there are right or wrong answers here or universal rules... Each family needs to make their own decision.

That said, Swampboy did a fine job of unloading off my chest as well

Lets take baseball out of the equation for a moment northwest.

Lets assume you wanted to be an actor or an engineer.

Would you advise someone to pick a school as if acting or engineering were not a reason for attending? Think of a really talented musician in another example. Would you tell them to bypass Juliard in New York because the weather can be bad and traffic can be worse?

I don't see how you would want to pick the school as if baseball wasn't involved unless baseball was not that big of deal in the first place. Some people want to dip their toe in and if everything breaks their way, then they'll take the plunge and give it everything they have.

Baseball players don't operate that way. They are willing to take the plunge even if it means years of sitting on the bench and carrying the water cooler. They're willing to pay the price in return for the vision they have in their minds. I am guessing none of this makes sense to the average college-bound student who is looking for the whole package of experiences. For the dedicated baseball player however, they are willing to sacrifice and wait years sometimes to fulfill that vision.

This topic comes up all the time on the hsbbweb and I usually cannot restrain from commenting. It is a good topic and it helps people focus on those things that are truly important to them. Swampboy's post above captures my thoughts and feelings quite well.

Fenway,
I also think BOF means well. He makes far too many constructive posts for anything else to be the case.

However, I strongly disagree with this one piece of advice he often gives.

If he made a less ambitious recommendation, such as what Northwest appears to be trying to say or what TPM just said, I wouldn't have a problem.

After all, there are people who do make single-factor, baseball-only decisions that ignore academic goals, social suitability, distance from home, cost, and other factors that need to be appropriately weighted. I think Northwest's original post is basically warning that such decisions often turn out unhappily. And he is surely correct.

Similarly, TPM's most recent post reminds us that the non-baseball factors need to be seriously considered. No matter how focused you are on baseball, you still need to go to class, you still need to interact with other students, and you need to make sure the non-baseball part of your world is tolerable. She is surely correct, too.

Both of these sensible reminders are very different from BOF's recommendation to pick a school as if baseball were not a factor at all. Just as it is imprudent to make a "baseball only" decision, it is impractical to ask a baseball player to make a "regardless of baseball" decision. If a player or parent is on this site reading about baseball recruiting, baseball clearly is a factor. There is no good purpose served in pretending it is not an important factor. BOF's recommendation is too simplistic. Pretending baseball is not a factor can be just as bad as making it the only factor.

Now, if BOF and I were having a beer together, we would probably agree on many things, and one of them would be that most players are more likely to over-value the baseball factor and too quick to dismiss warning signs of a non-baseball mismatch.

We probably have a lot of common ground on the issue. I will continue to look for that common ground while insisting that pretending baseball isn't a factor disguises the true challenge of figuring out how much of a factor it should be for any one individual player.

P.S., Thanks for the backup, Dan.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

I don't see how you would want to pick the school as if baseball wasn't involved unless baseball was not that big of deal in the first place. Some people want to dip their toe in and if everything breaks their way, then they'll take the plunge and give it everything they have.

Baseball players don't operate that way. They are willing to take the plunge even if it means years of sitting on the bench and carrying the water cooler. They're willing to pay the price in return for the vision they have in their minds. I am guessing none of this makes sense to the average college-bound student who is looking for the whole package of experiences. For the dedicated baseball player however, they are willing to sacrifice and wait years sometimes to fulfill that vision.

This is an important point.

Young men are hard wired with a desire to test themselves and compete and find out where they really stand. We shouldn't discourage that desire too much as long as it is channeled in a constructive direction.

My son is not considered a pro prospect. A local scout who has seen him since high school and in the college summer league told me recently he's glad my son has good grades in a real major. He said my son has some intriguing things going for him, he'll continue to get followed, but realistically, the pro thing just isn't going to happen.

My son is aware of this scout's opinion and absolutely does not care. He has taken the plunge for baseball, and he will keep working as hard as he can until all baseball doors have been completely closed, locked, and barred. He says he can handle not being good enough but he can't handle the idea of backing down before he knows 100%. He says he will not let himself reach middle age and wonder if there was any way he could have made it happen. He has to know for sure.

And you know what? As long as baseball is keeping his education affordable and he's making good progress toward a good degree, I totally support him on this. This is the time of life he can dream, and if he's backing up the dream with sincere effort, I'm okay with it even though I tend to believe the scout.

There are thousands of young men like my son. It's not my place to advise them to pick a school as if baseball were not a factor. To do so would be to deny their identity.

This thread has taken a wonderful turn. I am in complete agreement with the thoughts Swampboy so eloquently has presented.

Especially his last point regarding crushing our son's spirit and who they are as individuals. They would not be where they are without a total dedication to the sport.

Unless they are pitcher, of course!

the circle of friends in college is the same as it was in hs regardless for athletes regardless of the student body size in college

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

I don't see how you would want to pick the school as if baseball wasn't involved unless baseball was not that big of deal in the first place. Some people want to dip their toe in and if everything breaks their way, then they'll take the plunge and give it everything they have.

Baseball players don't operate that way. They are willing to take the plunge even if it means years of sitting on the bench and carrying the water cooler. They're willing to pay the price in return for the vision they have in their minds. I am guessing none of this makes sense to the average college-bound student who is looking for the whole package of experiences. For the dedicated baseball player however, they are willing to sacrifice and wait years sometimes to fulfill that vision.

This is an important point.

Young men are hard wired with a desire to test themselves and compete and find out where they really stand. We shouldn't discourage that desire too much as long as it is channeled in a constructive direction.

My son is not considered a pro prospect. A local scout who has seen him since high school and in the college summer league told me recently he's glad my son has good grades in a real major. He said my son has some intriguing things going for him, he'll continue to get followed, but realistically, the pro thing just isn't going to happen.

My son is aware of this scout's opinion and absolutely does not care. He has taken the plunge for baseball, and he will keep working as hard as he can until all baseball doors have been completely closed, locked, and barred. He says he can handle not being good enough but he can't handle the idea of backing down before he knows 100%. He says he will not let himself reach middle age and wonder if there was any way he could have made it happen. He has to know for sure.

And you know what? As long as baseball is keeping his education affordable and he's making good progress toward a good degree, I totally support him on this. This is the time of life he can dream, and if he's backing up the dream with sincere effort, I'm okay with it even though I tend to believe the scout.

There are thousands of young men like my son. It's not my place to advise them to pick a school as if baseball were not a factor. To do so would be to deny their identity.

Agree 100%!!

Swampboy/others,

One’s advice always comes from the perspective of one’s journey. They beauty of this site is that people can come here and get the perspective of others who have been there before them. I happen to have the perspective of a particular one journey and will continue to give this advice relative that path. It is up to the reader to discern whether to take it or not. The fact is that professional baseball is a brutal business laden with the bodies of well-meaning and under prepared kids. (and sometimes let by their parents)Top level college baseball is a slight step down from this and is also a very tough road.

Just for reference, if I was giving advice to a top prospect my advice would be different. Actually I have told several top HS players that I know to go “go pro if there is life changing money”. I know several who have opted for college when they and their family decided that $800K was not life changing. I know others who have taken much less and now after 4 years have to start their lives over after being released and now don’t have the means to attend college and are trapped. My son has friends playing on some of the top college teams in the country, several are impact freshmen. Every conversation I had with their parents when we were in the heat of the recruiting cycle was 1) The program and coaching. 2) Money 3) The environment outside of baseball. 4) Distance from home and adapting 4) The importance of getting an education because success at the highest level is fleeting.

If we look at the typical player/parent that rolls through here, most in the early stages don’t have the slightest idea of what the recruiting process is or what college baseball is about. I was one of those. Many of those may have some dream to play pro ball but most don’t understand what is involved, how competitive it is, or they don’t have the skills. I was also one of those. So my advice is always toward doing your homework asking lots of tough questions and making sure you are doing the right thing. There is a reason that there is a 50% transfer rate in D1 baseball. This is because people don’t do their homework and don’t realize how competitive baseball is at the highest levels, their kids don’t adjust, they peaked physically, injuries, or they are not as good as they thought there were.

Yes there are a few real pro-prospects that come through here, but most are not, but even the best have very little chance of actually playing on an MLB roster. Even fewer actually stick once they get there. There is absolutely nothing wrong with chasing this dream, but just be informed and understand what you are getting into is all I am saying. Plan for the day when this is not likely going to happen. For many this happens in college for a whole bunch of reasons as I pointed out. All you have to do is look at a college roster, look how few Sr’s, (or Jr’s for the programs at the highest level) are still playing. More drop out than make it, this is a fact that most players and their parents don’t think about.

I am certainly not suggesting that reality is crushing anyone's dream. Go chase the dream if you want to, just be informed and have a plan for success as well as one if it does not work out.

Finally, yes we sometimes give simplistic answers to complex problems but that is the nature of a public board.

This is a great thread. What I call sophisticated disagreement. Wonderful discussion, guys. A pleasure to read.

it is not a disagreement-----it is a discussion

If Bum, Jr. had quit, or even thought of quitting, each time a scout or coach said something discouraging to him he wouldn't be playing the game anymore. It's going to happen, especially if the player doesn't fit the prototypical mold.

I remember reeling in discomfort when he was a freshman in college and the radio play-by-play guy called him a "little itty-bitty guy". At 5'10 and 185 lbs he's not, but I guess they're used to seeing 6'2" or 6'3" pitchers.

There are so many reasons for quitting baseball. Ignore the banter and continue on.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
This is a great thread. What I call sophisticated disagreement. Wonderful discussion, guys. A pleasure to read.

I agree. It's nice that no one has interrupted the flow by making some smart a$$ comment or trying to get attention by starting trouble.
And thanks for counting me in as one of the guys.

Great post CD.

Lots of people transfer for lots of reasons. Some people really don't want to transfer. Transferring doesn't have to mean you won't graduate in 4 years.

My son, a high school senior, has changed schools a few times because of financial and job changes in our family. He has stated that it is important to him to stay at the same college all 4 years. For that reason he was not interested in going the JUCO route. He has considered the non-baseball environment carefully in case he gets injured and can't play all 4 years. This was important to him solely because of the times he has been uprooted.

Some people won't have the same sensitivity to transferring. And there's nothing wrong with that. It is certainly possible to graduate in 4 years even if you transfer. How easy it is depends on several factors, but it is doable.

So my advice would be to assess what's important to you, and try to weigh the various factors as best you can.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I believe, Swampboy, that you and Cleveland are misinterpreting what BOF is saying in a small but important way. I say this because I agree with his advice and, I think, it is an important consideration regardless of baseball aspirations (which obviously are the most critical piece of the puzzle).

The way I interpret BOF's advice is this way: Would this be the school for you if the baseball is taken out of the equation -- in other words, what if injury intervenes to the point that it is career ending? It is an extreme situation, but it happens.

Also, what if the baseball is too competitive or not otherwise a fit? My view is that, sure, you can transfer under these unanticipated circumstances, but if the school itself is a good enough fit, maybe you don't want to. That does not mean the player would stay, but if it is a tough decision, I view that as a good thing. If it is a great school choice even without the baseball, it just might be an even better choice with the baseball.

Each person will view all of this differently, but, as I said, I think BOF's approach can be very, very helpful for a lot of players -- but not perhaps for every player. It also (at least the way I read it) does not minimize the importance of baseball in the equation.

quote:

There are thousands of young men like my son. It's not my place to advise them to pick a school as if baseball were not a factor. To do so would be to deny their identity.

We recently hired a young man who graduated in June from one of the top National Universities, where he also was on the Dean's list for every quarter and a starter on the baseball team for 3 of the 4 years, being voted all conference his sophomore year before running into a string of injuries before he ended with flourish his senior year.
What he presented in the interview was that baseball was not his identity. However, the entire process of college, both competing in the classroom, competing on the field, and the daily grind of PT and rehab to get back and compete all combined to form the identity of a young man who graduated as a confident, multi-dimensional person, motivated and capable of success and knowing and willing to work for those goals. '
From perspectives, the identity would be different without baseball.
The identity would be different without the academics.
The identity, upon graduation and the end of baseball, would be different without that entire process and,for him, the accumulation of all experiences during those 4 years.
As jemaz illustrated, that was the manner I interpreted BOF's views and comments.

Good post jemaz. I interpreted it basically the same as you did.

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:
I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I believe, Swampboy, that you and Cleveland are misinterpreting what BOF is saying in a small but important way. I say this because I agree with his advice and, I think, it is an important consideration regardless of baseball aspirations (which obviously are the most critical piece of the puzzle).

The way I interpret BOF's advice is this way: Would this be the school for you if the baseball is taken out of the equation -- in other words, what if injury intervenes to the point that it is career ending? It is an extreme situation, but it happens.

Also, what if the baseball is too competitive or not otherwise a fit? My view is that, sure, you can transfer under these unanticipated circumstances, but if the school itself is a good enough fit, maybe you don't want to. That does not mean the player would stay, but if it is a tough decision, I view that as a good thing. If it is a great school choice even without the baseball, it just might be an even better choice with the baseball.

Each person will view all of this differently, but, as I said, I think BOF's approach can be very, very helpful for a lot of players -- but not perhaps for every player. It also (at least the way I read it) does not minimize the importance of baseball in the equation.

Possibly, Jemaz, but I've seen the advice in enough forms in enough posts that I think I read it correctly. As BOF said earlier, he has made this pitch about a million times. I know the tune.

Did you ever notice that nobody ever suggests a young man should pick the school where he'd want to spend four years regardless of money, major, geography, or campus culture?

You only hear this advice applied to baseball.

Why is that?

Well, I came up with three reasons this advice might be offered:

1) An underlying belief that, when push comes to shove, baseball is really only a second-tier criterion, that it's not really a legitimate primary consideration.

2) An assumption that attending one college and graduating "on time" is a big enough deal that students should compromise on their dreams to minimize the chance of transfers and delays.

3) A well-intended desire to steer young people toward safe career choices and to protect them from disappointment.

I don't buy any of these reasons. 1) I'm not comfortable telling people what their priorities should be (however, when I'm writing the checks, I also get to maintain my criteria for deciding what enterprises I'm willing to invest in). 2) I don't think it's a big deal to switch schools or to take a little longer to graduate. 3) And I believe young people often learn and grow the most when they encounter disappointments and setbacks (depending of course on what they did to invite those disappointments and setbacks).


Now, as a matter of practicality, the overwhelming majority of prospective college baseball players would be well advised to compromise a little on the baseball as they seek to optimize the other factors in their school selection.

But even for these students, I wouldn't tell them to pick a school as if baseball were not a factor when it is one. I would advise them to do some self-examination, to clarify how much of a factor it should be, and to spell out what consequences they are willing to accept from giving it a heavy weight.


I know a young woman who wants to be a large animal veterinarian. This is her goal even though her only up close and personal association with large animals was some casual horseback riding. I don't think she really knows what she's getting into. Even so, she's really convinced right now that this is the path for her.

I know there's a pretty decent chance she'll change her major after she gets an internship that requires her to stick her arm all the way up to there in a few large animal orifices. I also know there's a decent chance she'll be less satisfied with a school two states away if she changes her major to something available closer to home. Yet, even knowing these things, I would never advise her to pick a school where she'd want to spend four years, "regardless of large animal pre-vet programs."

Why? Because it's her goal, and she has earned high enough grades to earn the chance to pursue it.

And if she changes her mind, so what? Maybe she decides to change schools. Is that such a tragedy? Is it a failure?

As long as young people are diligently pursuing honorable goals, they are preparing themselves for success later in life.

If baseball is of primary importance and you're willing to accept certain risks, make it a big factor in your decision. If it's of moderate importance, make it a moderate factor. If it's only of minor importance, make it a minor factor.

But don't tell someone trying to make one of their first adult decisions to pretend something isn't a factor when it is one. That just breeds cognitive dissonance and confusion.

Great stuff. What he said. The decision is made along the lines of a continuum as Swampboy noted with the rabid players on one end and the mildly interested at the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in there, baseball seems part of the decision.

jemaz - there seems some irony in your post. Your son probably attends the #1 baseball school in America. I am guessing that baseball was part of the decision Seriously, your points are well taken

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
This is a great thread. What I call sophisticated disagreement. Wonderful discussion, guys. A pleasure to read.

....Let me add that BOF and I shared several PM's while our son's were on their respective recruiting journey's and I have tremendous respect for him. I enjoy tracking his son's progress at Trinity, and I'm looking forward to a big year from him. With that said, I understand where Swampboy is coming from in regards to different strokes for different folks concept. If you preview roster profiles from the top D-1 universities, it's evident that the majority of players/students are likely attending with baseball as the number one priority, and not necessarily the academics, even at top notch universities...Just look at the majors, and yes, there are a few exceptions.

If a young man/woman knows what they're going to do beyond his/her college years, I would concur with BOF's advice, hands down. However, if your son is feeling his way through the process with baseball and other issues up in the air, read Swampboy's advice. Both are correct...depending on your view and current situation.

Best of luck to you northwest!

I'm squarely in BOF's camp. I've seen too many minor leaguers fall by the way side at a point where they have a huge chasm to cross in order to hope to get to an earnings level relative to their peers. The number of ball players who become real money players is likely worse odds than winning a lottery. And if you are that good then you will know it and can make decisions along that path with that knowledge in hand.

Not saying that others should forego the baseball dream, but sooner or later you may have to wake up. And you want to be sure you are prepared for that reality.

are u speaking of players or parents

Swampboy, You are extending my comments way beyond their intent. Like I posted earlier this is a public BB and it is easy to put words in people’s mouth due to the limited time and space. The fact is that selecting a school for an athlete doubles the complexity of the school search because now you are adding another variable to the equation. I don’t have a lot of time for this, but I will make a few points and then just let it go.

You said

"Did you ever notice that nobody ever suggests a young man should pick the school where he'd want to spend four years regardless of money, major, geography, or campus culture? You only hear this advice applied to baseball."

Where did you come up with the fact that no one talks about this outside of baseball?

This is just ONE criterion among many in making an important decision of where to go to college. You have to want to be someplace that fits your requirements regarding your major, (but frankly this is the first criteria in the sort) and then you sort on the next criteria, which if you are a lock pro prospect then your criteria will be different from a someone who “might” have the chance for a pro career, or someone who is a fringe player, etc. Frankly it would be foolish to suggest to a kid that he go to Arizona State, for example, if you were not a drafted prospect out of HS. (or have those skills and you want to actually make the team) If you look at my past advice is has always been about having a plan and work the plan. The plan for each person is different, but usually has about 25-30 target schools that fit their criteria. One very important one is “go where you will be happy for four years regardless of baseball”.

I was talking with a woman here at work whose daughter will graduate next year. They are doing the same thing this Thanksgiving and Christmas that we did with my son - they are out visiting colleges. What are they doing? They are going to see schools and campuses to see where she might like to spend four years. This is based on the first sort on her major. Is she a baseball player? I think not.

You also said
"An underlying belief that, when push comes to shove, baseball is really only a second-tier criterion, that it's not really a legitimate primary consideration."

This is in fact true IMO for most kids’. Kareem Abdul Jabar is one of my favorite athletes and I am even more impressed with him now because he is active in his foundation in teaching kids that they should strive for academic excellence first, and athletic second. Why? Because in our country, particularly for the underprivileged inner city kids, there is a love affair with pro basketball athletes. Why does he do this? Because there are approx. 250 pro basketball players and the chances of being one of those for the average inner city kid is zero.

I would argue that the chance for the average college baseball player going on to in the MLB has a better chance than zero, but not much. (Actually the number is 0.035%)

Think about this one fact. Many of you probably have a similar experience if you live in a baseball rich environment like So Cal. I have been around baseball for 10 years or so with my son. I have met thousands of players. I know hundreds of players who have gone on to play in college. I know quite a few, maybe 75, who have gone on to play pro ball. I know on one hand the number of players who have made it to the MLB. I know one player who has gone on to make a marginal career playing baseball.

So I am not saying for those who have the dream to go chase it, but be realistic do your homework, select a school that fits your criteria, which one is make it a place where you want to be for four years. Certainly the baseball program, coaches etc are part of that decision. Please don’t extrapolate one comment into crushing dreams, failure, etc.

The facts are that your son and nearly every other parent’s sons here are not going to on to have a successful pro baseball career. Am I inviting criticism for coming on a baseball website and saying this? You bet, but my comments are only to make people think beyond their glorious baseball playing son who they view with rose colored glasses. (I was one of those BTW)

Off to work now Cheers!