Opinion of coaches desired

Was this the first time this happened during the game?

If it was then call it because it's a rule. If he has been doing this the whole game then let it go. It should have been called the first time (or definately the second time if it caught you off guard the first time) but since it hasn't then the umpire is affecting the game. I wouldn't expect the call but I would be surprised if it was called.

This is probably the most ignored rule I see that should be called. Now I know I don't have the best view from the dugout or coaches box but I know I have seen balks that should be called and not.

Here is what irritates me more - when I ask between innings about what the pitcher is doing and the umpires says "He's doing something funny but i'm not sure it's a balk". I have heard this several times over the years. My belief is there is no gray area - it's a balk or not a balk. Just tell me that.

There were no balks committed prior to this by this pitcher or the opposing pitcher.

If this was a Varsity game I would have called it. As the offensive coach I would have been bouncing off the walls if it wasnt called and probably would have been thrown out of the game. At this point I would have filed a complaint with the state athletic board. As the defensive coach if it was called I wouldnt have any ground to stand on if I was upset with the call.

Rules are put in to place for a reason. A balk is no different than say an infield fly rule, its in place for a reason. Its one thing as an umpire to miss a judgement call but to miss an easy balk or to overlook it, my evaluation of those umpires wouldnt have been kind.

What if the runner on 3rd was going to suicide squeeze, What if I was down by 2 runs and with this faster delivery it prevents my runner on 2nd from getting a larger secondary lead and with a base hit could prevent the runner on 2nd from scoring which could cost my team the game.

No umpire likes to be the determining factor in a game , but its the coaches responsiblity to make sure that his players understand a simple rule like pausing before you pitch with runners on base. This is baseball 101. Even kids at the 10, 11 and 12 yr old age brackets understand this rule. So how can you expect a high school ball player not too.

You absolutely have to make the right call. As long as you weren't letting it slide all game long, you have to call it. Unless you make a list of all the rules you are not going to inforce at the coaches meeting prior to the game, you have to inforce all the rules without exception. All a coach can ever expect from an umpire is consistency.

The umpire set the "tone" by not calling it in any of the previous 6 innings

At the very least a "warning" should have been given early on---with the "warning in place all the bases are covered

If I were the coach of the team in the field I would have gone ballistic---as noted above by Coach Curt all you want is consistency on the part of the umpires---this call was not consistent with what had been happening

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
The umpire set the "tone" by not calling it in any of the previous 6 innings

At the very least a "warning" should have been given early on---with the "warning in place all the bases are covered

If I were the coach of the team in the field I would have gone ballistic---as noted above by Coach Curt all you want is consistency on the part of the umpires---this call was not consistent with what had been happening

sorry tr, no where in the OP did they say that balks were being ignored in the previous 6 innings...there just werent any called...there are no warnings for balks in the NFHS rules....

Sorry ump I read the original post as they just were not calling balks and regardless of what the rule book says many umps will give one warning to the coaches

Also most umps I have seen in PA, no offense to you, have no idea what a balk is---there also have been times I have been able to get inside an umps brain and all of a sudden the other team is balking--he had no idea what he was looking at

Thanks for your comments.

First, at the postgame the umpires and I all agreed we saw no evidence of a balk previously in the game.

This was the first balk committed, and both umpires jumped on it immediately. The defensive coach was quite the sportsmen, he nodded, and stayed in his dugout.

The inning ended in a tie, and after two extra innings, the home team won by one.

It is unfortunate to have to call a balk in such a situation, but our philosophy is that the situation doesn't dictate the enforcement of the balk rule.

Both umpires were subdued in the postgame. They know that the peception was they decided the game. The ugly reaction of the visiting fans certainly put that perception across. I told them that the they didn't tie the game. The pitcher did.

Just because an umpiring crew makes the wrong call the entire game, when they realize it they should continue to ignore the rule. At whatever point the pitcher should be given a warning the next time is a balk.

"Here is what irritates me more - when I ask between innings about what the pitcher is doing and the umpires says "He's doing something funny but i'm not sure it's a balk". I have heard this several times over the years. My belief is there is no gray area - it's a balk or not a balk."

I'm amazed how many high school umpires can't recognize balks. The two times I'ved been tossed coaching travel was over balks not called.

RJM

Been there done that !!!

And then the ump cops an attitude because you are questioning his ability and knowledge

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Just because an umpiring crew makes the wrong call the entire game, when they realize it they should continue to ignore the rule. At whatever point the pitcher should be given a warning the next time is a balk.

Why do you insist they made a wrong call "the entire game"?

I was witness to the game. Neither pitcher committed a balk until the one in the bottom of the 7th. The umpires immediately called that balk. I was asking for reaction on the facts of the matter, not conjecture on what no one here saw.

I guess what I am being told, is that some coaches will refuse to believe the umpires had not let previous balks go uncalled.

Thank you for that information.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
RJM

Been there done that !!!

And then the ump cops an attitude becvause you are questioning his ability and knowledge

One time between innings I went to the plate and told the umpire if he would look and listen into the opposing dugout, the pitcher is being told he's balking and getting instruction on how not to. I had been out the previous three innings complaining the pitcher wasn't coming to a stop.

The umpire proceeded to call four straight balls on my pitcher and a balk on the fifth pitch. He turned and stared into our dugout. I turned to my pitching coach and said, "This guy is a clown. He should be umpiring LL." I was tossed. He wouldn't have heard it if he wasn't listening. I didn't say it very loud. When he walked the next hitter on four balls, the pitching coach lost it and got tossed. When I left the field the opposing coach told me the umpire was making a farce of a good game.

All I ask for the umpires is to be consistent. If the umpires are allowing borderline balk calls to go uncalled the entire game then allow them the entire game and by both teams. If it is clearly a balk then do your job and call it regardless of what team does it and what the situation in the game is.

If I am reading this original post correctly I would expect this balk to be called regardless if it were my pitcher or the opponents pitcher.

Its a fact that some hs umpires are reluctant to make balk calls. Most of the time it is when a pitcher does not pause , and a lhp that clearly balks throwing to first. The problem is there are coaches that do not know what a balk is and they never complain. The umpire is inexperienced and does not make a call either. Then in a critical point in the game the umpire suddenly makes a balk call on something that is a balk but something he has allowed to go uncalled the entire game.

The answer to your question is yes.

JImmy

I know you are an umpire and sometimes eyesight deserts umpires, especially on close calls, but read what you posted---" There was not a balk called all game long" ---this implies that there were balks happening during the first 6 innings but none had been called until the final inning---

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
JImmy

I know you are an umpire and sometimes eyesight deserts umpires, especially on close calls, but read what you posted---" There was not a balk called all game long" ---this implies that there were balks happening during the first 6 innings but none had been called until the final inning---

TR,

only you would attempt to tell the author of a post what he implied.....

piaa

He did not imply !!! He said it !!!!!

You guys all stand behind "umpire talk" and try to protect one another

Read his orginal post and you tell me, honestly now, that the umps were not calling balks that occurred in the first 6 innings---if they were not overlooking them why pose the question as he has---if the pitchers were not getting away with balks early on why bring up the balk in the final inning--- think about it--- it is a non problem if the gazme was being called correctly

Sometimes we coaches happen to be more aware of things than you umpires want to think

quote:

Why do you insist they made a wrong call "the entire game"?

I was witness to the game. Neither pitcher committed a balk until the one in the bottom of the 7th. The umpires immediately called that balk. I was asking for reaction on the facts of the matter, not conjecture on what no one here saw.

I guess what I am being told, is that some coaches will refuse to believe the umpires had not let previous balks go uncalled.

Becuase the above is what he said.....no balks were committed in the prevoius innings....and over the years I've been here, I have never stood behind "umpire talk" to protect anyone....but that wont fit into your "umpires are the enemy" bias...

but regardless, I will continue to support you when you are right....its just here I feel you are wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
piaa

He did not imply !!! He said it !!!!!

You guys all stand behind "umpire talk" and try to protect one another

Read his orginal post and you tell me, honestly now, that the umps were not calling balks that occurred in the first 6 innings---if they were not overlooking them why pose the question as he has---if the pitchers were not getting away with balks early on why bring up the balk in the final inning--- think about it--- it is a non problem if the gazme was being called correctly

Please read the third post in this thread:

"There were no balks committed prior to this by this pitcher or the opposing pitcher."

I can't make it any clearer than that.

Again, I believe what I've learned here is that some coaches will never believe that the umpires did not selectively call the balk. Thank you for that information.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

You guys all stand behind "umpire talk" and try to protect one another

This is total BS. Unless my partner is clueless, after every game I will ask him "what do you have for me?" We SEEK criticism to try and get better. We WANT to be nit-picked by our peers. If a college evaluator observes my performance, you can bet I will listen very carefully to every word he has to say. I have never and will never ask a coach for his opinion. I don't care what a coach thinks.

BTW: can you give me an example of "umpire talk?"
Not that I care, just curious, coach.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
As the coach of the offense...would you expect this balk at this time to be called?

As the coach of the defense...would you accept this balk being called at this time?

YES and YES

Every time I have had a balk called for this reason I have done exactly what you said the defensive coach did, nod and tell my pitcher he has to stop. Only time I would have an issue with it is if it had been going on with the other guys pitcher(s) and not called.

And I'd be much more PO'd at my pitcher for not stopping than at the umpire for calling it "at this time."

dash_riprock

I understand you getting upset about that post. But I dont believe you dont care what a coach thinks. I think every crew when the game is over wants to think that both coaches felt the game was called in a professional and consistent manner. Now I understand that can not always be the case because some coaches wouldnt know either way.

The vast majority of umpires do a tremendous job. And even if they have a tough night and miss some calls as long as they are consistent with the strike zone , work hard to get into proper posistion and handle themselves in a professional manner I have no issues what so ever.

I do not expect them to be perfect. And I do not expect to agree with every call. But I do expect them to be consistent and prepared to work hard to do a good job. But just like in every profession there are good and not so good. Just like coaches.

I would epxect the call to be made if I am on offense. On defense, 9 times out of 10 I think atleast 2-3 balks have been ignored. So, I will be upset at my pitcher for not stopping, but will probably some smart comment towards the umpire. It will be well after I have gotten my pitcher though.

This will not be the reason we lost the game in my post game talk. I am required to say something to the umpire however. It is said to let my pitcher I am on his side. He still has to get an out and keep the game tied.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
dash_riprock

I understand you getting upset about that post. But I dont believe you dont care what a coach thinks. I think every crew when the game is over wants to think that both coaches felt the game was called in a professional and consistent manner. Now I understand that can not always be the case because some coaches wouldnt know either way.

The vast majority of umpires do a tremendous job. And even if they have a tough night and miss some calls as long as they are consistent with the strike zone , work hard to get into proper posistion and handle themselves in a professional manner I have no issues what so ever.

I do not expect them to be perfect. And I do not expect to agree with every call. But I do expect them to be consistent and prepared to work hard to do a good job. But just like in every profession there are good and not so good. Just like coaches.

Coach May,

I agree 100% with everything you said. But when it comes to criticism, I will give far more credibility to a competent partner than a coach who is often influenced by the outcome of the game. That's just the way it is.

Coach May -
Couldn't agree more. I make mistakes. My players make mistakes. The umpires will make mistakes. However if my player does not think about the situation, or does not hustle, that I have a problem with. Just like if an umpire does not have proper knowledge of the rules or does not get into proper position.

The other day I actually had an umpire tell me that he knew something was a balk, but chose not to call it. This I have an even bigger problem with. He knows the rules but chooses which rules to enforce and which ones not to enforce.

If the ump has a strike zone I don't agree with, I can deal with that. If he blows a few out/safe calls, I can deal with that. But if his mistake is as a result of lack of knowledge or lack of effort, I treat that exactly like my players not knowing their assignments or not hustling on a play.

Of course you would. What your partner thinks is way more important. And Coach I like you could tell many stories of umpires that have blown calls or did not get in proper posistion. And as you know those umpires could tell just as many stories about coaches who have made just as many bone headed moves and mistakes as well.

quote:

Originally posted by BCRockets:

The other day I actually had an umpire tell me that he knew something was a balk, but chose not to call it. This I have an even bigger problem with. He knows the rules but chooses which rules to enforce and which ones not to enforce.

I don't blame you at all for being upset at that. An umpire who knowingly ignores a balk is probably guaranteeing it will happen again, and he will probably ignore it again until it becomes a mess. The best way to get a pitcher to stop balking is to bust him for it.

I don't care about the call if it has been consistent the whole game. I don't expect them to be perfect but they should call it the same in the 1st inning as the 9th.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
I don't care about the call if it has been consistent the whole game. I don't expect them to be perfect but they should call it the same in the 1st inning as the 9th.

IMO, an umpire who consistently refuses to enforce a rule is being consistently bad.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
I don't care about the call if it has been consistent the whole game. I don't expect them to be perfect but they should call it the same in the 1st inning as the 9th.

IMO, an umpire who consistently refuses to enforce a rule is being consistently bad.

I completely agree.

Also, if it is something "balk worthy" like not pausing, I would mention it to my pitcher between innings to take the decision out of the umpire's hands.

Most umpires will allow a non discernable pause. What they wont allow is a repeated non discernable pause. At that point I put both the blame on the pitcher as well as the coach. Whenever I see a pitcher push the edge on this I just say "pause" and the kid gets it. If its called the first time fine. But from my experience most umpires will allow the coach to see it and correct it first. But its not the umpires job to to your job either as a player or a coach. Its his job to enforce the rules of the game and make the best judgement calls he can.

Your last statement is so true redbird5. Isnt the coach most likely to run his mouth on a call like this the guy most at fault for the call in the first place? He sits there and sees it and either has no clue or ignores it then gets po'ed when its called.

I don't get upset when my pitcher gets called for a balk. It was our fault that it happened. If I thought he paused or didn't see what happened then I will ask what happened just to make sure it doesn't happen again. But the no pause shouldn't happen if you teach the pitchers to vary their looks which is what we do. So our pitchers rarely get called for balks - most of the time it's for a flinch and not a pause.

My problem is when it's the other team who does not pause. If I see that the other pitcher isn't pausing then I wait until between innings to bring up what I saw to the ump. Usually they say (field / plate both) I'll watch for it and then it never gets called. I understand that you don't take my word for it but it can't hurt to start looking for it.

High School Varsity...I don't care if it is the 1st or 7th inning, what the score is, etc...

You have to make that call.

jimmy


your opening post did not state that!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
jimmy


your opening post did not state that!!!

My opening post said:

"No balks had been called all game long."

Only you took that to mean that balks were committed but not called. That speaks volumes.

But wait, there's more.

In the third post of the thread, I added: "There were no balks committed prior to this by this pitcher or the opposing pitcher."

That was three posts prior to your first post...meaning that the information you are complaining was missing was posted and available to you BEFORE you posted. You apparently chose to ignore it.

So: You ASSUMED the worst of the umpires, even after it was explained that no balks were committed.

And now you are intimating that it is my fault.

Again, I wanted information from coaches. You have certainly provided that.

Fortunately, a number of reasonable coaches who took the time to read the posts have provided what appears to be a majority opinion.

Thanks, anyway.

I love it ... an 8-exclamation point temper tantrum being thrown after having a day to think about it. And nice logic too, by the way.

Blues -- thanks for a classy discussion. Sure, not all of your fellow umps are always great, but you guys here represent your profession well.

Have to chuckle as the OP reminds me of a similar situation when my son, 14 at the time, was pitching. We were in the bottom of the last, score tied, 2 outs, R2 & R3. Coach instructs my son to intentionally walk the next batter.

Son wasn't experienced in issuing intentional walks. First pitch is WAY WAY outside. Gets the ball back from the catcher and then with no pause whatsoever ... none ... issues ball two. BALK! Winning run scores. Game over! My son is very upset with himself.

Now the discussion of calling a balk during an intentional walk would probably draw some interesting comments, but bottom line the ump had made the correct call. A few days later, when I joked with my son that he had given up a balk-off run, he was finally able to smile about it ... but just a little.

Ahh, the joys of youth baseball.