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Again to answer a question earlier...

There will always be those that have unbelievable natural talent.  Yes, there are pitchers that just have smooth fluid deliveries without instruction or even working that hard.

Truth is some of those "naturals" make it to the Big Leagues and others never understand they need to get better and fail to realize anything close to their potential.  I won't do it, but could name a lot of those with Major League ability, but satisfaction got in their way and caused them to fail reaching anywhere near their potential.  I suppose several that post here have seen this happen.

Not a pitcher but I was talking to Griffey Junior last August.  Not many ever had as much natural talent as he did.  He made it clear that the secret to his success was he worked harder than everyone else.  IMO Every great player is never totally satisfied with his ability.  The great ones continue trying to get better in some way.  Most everyone in the Big Leagues has earned their way there no matter how talented they were.  

No truer words than this... Talent alone is not enough.

I think for the VAST majority -- it is a combination of both -- not an either/or. You need natural talent but you also need a LOT of hard work.  Sure there are exceptions on either side of the curve.  If it was all nature, my son should be following in the footsteps of my wife's father who was an absolute stud pitcher.  But that gene pool was mixed with mine which watered things down.  

I am a firm believe that hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.  

2020dad posted:
Rob T posted:

It's an interesting premise, and one I think that may have changed a bit over recent years.  Old school thought was you were either born with the ability to throw 90, or you weren't.  However I think some of the more modern training regimens have called that belief into question.  I don't think they would claim that anyone can throw 90 - but perhaps through the proper training far more can than was previously believed.

With that said, proper training requires a lot of time and dedication.  That is always going to be part of the equation.  Also it has to be considered that most of the participants in modern throwing programs aren't just some guy plucked off the streets.  These are guys who were already very athletic, which eliminates a huge section of the general population.  In other words, a player who would even embark on the training required to get to 90 is probably genetically special from the outset.

It will be interesting to see if Kyle makes an appearance in this thread.  I would think he probably has some data that would give some insight one way or another.

Love the idea of Kyle weighing in.  Would love to know if they have ever had some kid - hard worker, dedicated - throwing mid 70's as a freshman or sophomore who did everything they asked religiously and just couldn't ever get much past 80.  I just think 90 is not god given to most people no matter how hard they work at it.

We have a kid who is probably incapable of throwing any harder than 85 MPH. He is short, left-handed, has chronic back issues, but it doesn't deter him from trying. He sits 75 MPH as a high school senior and collects outs. He'll pitch at a JC for sure, but there's basically no way he'll throw 90 MPH ever.

Anatomy and anthropometry play a huge role. When I saw Tyler Glasnow throw in our facility and break every single velocity record in drills, it didn't shock me. The kid looks like a decathlete, and it turns out it runs in his family. Olympic-caliber genetics go a long long way.

I think 90% of the high school baseball playing population can THROW 85 MPH (not pitch). I do not think 90 MPH is attainable by everyone.

Wish I had a really good, concrete answer for this. The answer unfortunately is that "it depends," but I can narrow it down to body size/type and general athleticism for the most part. Then again, I had a 6'1" fat kid who THREW (pulled down) a maximum of 71 MPH at 15 years old and does not have tall or athletic parents. That same kid sits 95+ MPH now and is every bit of 6'8". Everyone gave up on him at 15. Today he's still not a good athlete, but he throws very hard (up to 98 MPH off the bump) and can hit light tower homers (his college wants him to be a pitcher only, which I understand).

Puberty - and testosterone, specifically - play such a gigantic, unknowable role. And in some respects, that's the fun part of training the underdogs. You really can never tell if they have it or not until they're quite a bit older.

Last edited by Kyle Boddy

Great thread. Very interesting to hear everyone's viewpoint and share their observations and thoughts.

Mine are not highly informed, but I'd say I agree that the "genetic ceiling" rules supreme in that no matter how hard a person works, they cannot exceed it. To add to this, I think there is another factor: genetics and basic biomechanics also dictate a person's ability to achieve their genetic limit. In other words, two pitchers with the same body type and size might have a ceiling of 90mph. Both get excellent instruction and work diligently, but one makes more rapid progress while the other struggles for every mph gain.

Every now and then, when my son was really young (6,7,8,9 yo), both the ball and him paying attention would meet in the OF in a game.  He would throw the ball as far as he could in the general direction of home plate, often into the backstop.  Parents would say "wow, where did that come from?"

At 9,10 he had a strong arm, but would rarely pitch because no one knew where the ball was going.

At 11,12 he got occasional pitching instruction.  At 13 he began getting regular pitching instruction and throwing long toss.  At 14, he added some training, speed, agility, core strength and some weights.  Also played lots of basketball.  He's a freshman now, he touched 84 in a bullpen last week, a couple days before HS tryouts.  He's not big, but not small either.

It's been nurtured, but there is a lot of nature in him.  I thank my wife's family every time I see them.

https://www.youtube.com/playli...V4MNBv6Pv-n_5KXZ_hxE

 

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