BHD,
We are supposed to be here to help and this mom needs some help.
Pitcher16Mom,
You have a pm.
I think I did help. I told her that her son at this point is not being abused. That she should not contact the coach, that her son should learn to say no, and that she is being negative towards her HS coach. I also said that if she thinks her son is being abused she should remove him from the HS team. Look at other options. I am dead against parents interfering with coaches. If she has a fear of injury she at this point has no basis for that fear.
I also told her her son may not be in top shape at the beginning of the schedule. Could he stand up to a college workout ? Obviously I don't know her son but it sounds to me he is not ready to go.
She could end up like that scary guy on the other thread.
I also told her her son may not be in top shape at the beginning of the schedule. Could he stand up to a college workout ? Obviously I don't know her son but it sounds to me he is not ready to go.
She could end up like that scary guy on the other thread.
Let me be the first to correct you BHD, you lost any benefit of being helpful by about your 4th post or so. Up until then...not so bad.
Please tell whomever placed your cornflakes next to the toilet bowl, to remove them so that similar mistakes won't happen in the future. This must be what has you in such an antagonistic mood
Please tell whomever placed your cornflakes next to the toilet bowl, to remove them so that similar mistakes won't happen in the future. This must be what has you in such an antagonistic mood
You did ask for opinions.
I stand by what I said. Hope the HS coach appreciates your views.
You sound like many other interfering parenst who has limited knowledge and is mistaken. If you expect your son to achieve he will get a tired arm. he will get exhausted but as long as mommy is there to protect him from the big bad coach.
No wonder coaches get fed up. Whats wrong with eating corn flakes in the bathroom. Corn flakes are better than just plain ol FLAKES.
I stand by what I said. Hope the HS coach appreciates your views.
You sound like many other interfering parenst who has limited knowledge and is mistaken. If you expect your son to achieve he will get a tired arm. he will get exhausted but as long as mommy is there to protect him from the big bad coach.
No wonder coaches get fed up. Whats wrong with eating corn flakes in the bathroom. Corn flakes are better than just plain ol FLAKES.
ah..geez. Just one more thing BHD, since you have all the info and know all the answers. After last season, (and if you insist I will go back and look at his stats to tell you how many innings over how many games he pitched)he began having so much pain in his arm, that he couldn't pitch going into travel season. Took him to our sports medicine orthopedic doc, had an MRI done. MRI showed some damage to the UCL, but Doc felt it was at a point where it could heal itself with 12 weeks of rest, NO pitching. That little experience cost him some vital exposure at a critical time, and we were lucky we got off that easy. The point is I believe there is a history that warrants concern. If you have something constructive to say, please by all means offer it. If you simply want to come off as holier than thou...then I'm sorry you'll have to provide me with your credentials first. What exactly are your credentials? The father of a college level player? There are many on this site...and I don't think I have found any of them to be as needlessly offensive as you have been. In fact, I found the comments from all sides to give me new insights and reason to think about things...until you rode in on your high horse. Please get over yourself.
BHD,
I didn't have my thinking cap on today but I know who the pitcher is and I think there are legit concerns but p16mom doesn't know how to approach the situation and asked for our input.
Not that I disagree with all that you have stated, but IMO, when a pitcher's health is at stake, and the player won't, the parent might need to speak up. I do not agree that you think he hasn't pitched more than he should in a short time span. That may be ok for your son, but not for everyone's.
This has nothing to do with not being in shape.
I didn't have my thinking cap on today but I know who the pitcher is and I think there are legit concerns but p16mom doesn't know how to approach the situation and asked for our input.
Not that I disagree with all that you have stated, but IMO, when a pitcher's health is at stake, and the player won't, the parent might need to speak up. I do not agree that you think he hasn't pitched more than he should in a short time span. That may be ok for your son, but not for everyone's.
This has nothing to do with not being in shape.
P16mom - Another voice for speaking to the coach unless you want your son to not be able to do normal things like cast a fishing pole or shooting baskets with his kids in 15 years. I have seen it too many times in my limited experience. Ask the kid who threw 94 his junior year and only hit 84 his senior year. Ask the kid who won all kinds of games when 12 and couldn't lift his arm and throw overhand when a junior in HS. Many asked me about my son pitching when he was older, I was happy that he was not.
Tim Robertson
Tim Robertson
P16 my opinion is based on the info you gave. Now you add additional info.
Was it the same coach ?
As I stated what you gave us to form an opinion on was not abuse.
Many pitchers get injured even when they don't get abused.
My credentials come from 10+ years of hanging around MLB and minor league BB pitching coaches. Also putting in years of reading and studying pitching books.
son's doctor is a former Rangers Coach and co autor of The Pitchers Edge. I have stayed away from coaching because I wanted my son to make it without my help. I taught him good mechanics and to be able to say no. When some one figures out what the right amount of pitches is let me know. My son has to talk with the coach and let him know what is going on.
I have seen more catchers injured than pitchers. It only takes 1 bad throw.
Having a son in college means nothing to me. I knew what to expect and have had discussions with him about his mechanics now that I can see him on video stream. His mechanics were terrible and he adjusted and corrected the issues. Even in college you have to keep an eye on them but I would never approach the coach and complain. He will deal with the issues.
One of the reasons I stayed away from coaching was I didn't want to listen to parents complain and question things they don't know anything about. I agree every pitcher is different and it has always been up to my son to call it a day.
He shuts down when he is done and I don't mean tired. There are tell tale signs like mechanics changing, arm dropping , not finishing properl and ball high in the zone.
My son played on 4 teams in a season for a few years and we monitored his pitching very closely but the coaches were always asking him how he felt.
As I said if the coach is abusing your son in your opinion and if you feel he is the one who caused him to be injured then find a new place to play.
Was it the same coach ?
As I stated what you gave us to form an opinion on was not abuse.
Many pitchers get injured even when they don't get abused.
My credentials come from 10+ years of hanging around MLB and minor league BB pitching coaches. Also putting in years of reading and studying pitching books.
son's doctor is a former Rangers Coach and co autor of The Pitchers Edge. I have stayed away from coaching because I wanted my son to make it without my help. I taught him good mechanics and to be able to say no. When some one figures out what the right amount of pitches is let me know. My son has to talk with the coach and let him know what is going on.
I have seen more catchers injured than pitchers. It only takes 1 bad throw.
Having a son in college means nothing to me. I knew what to expect and have had discussions with him about his mechanics now that I can see him on video stream. His mechanics were terrible and he adjusted and corrected the issues. Even in college you have to keep an eye on them but I would never approach the coach and complain. He will deal with the issues.
One of the reasons I stayed away from coaching was I didn't want to listen to parents complain and question things they don't know anything about. I agree every pitcher is different and it has always been up to my son to call it a day.
He shuts down when he is done and I don't mean tired. There are tell tale signs like mechanics changing, arm dropping , not finishing properl and ball high in the zone.
My son played on 4 teams in a season for a few years and we monitored his pitching very closely but the coaches were always asking him how he felt.
As I said if the coach is abusing your son in your opinion and if you feel he is the one who caused him to be injured then find a new place to play.
Tim I know guys who have had TJ surgury and they are still throwing 90 mph and are shooting hoops.
I saw a guy from Wake Forest with zippers in his arm an dhe was one of the best looking guys at a MLB tryout last summer. He was in the mid 90s.
I saw a guy from Wake Forest with zippers in his arm an dhe was one of the best looking guys at a MLB tryout last summer. He was in the mid 90s.
p16mom
if he had a small issue with his ucl last year,i would say he is being overused this year. pitching once a week in high school is a normal thing .especially in the early season. in my opinion ucl injurys don't just happen they accumulate over time. there are many people that never have problems,and they and their parents will tell you that 3 days rest is ok after 120 pitch outing. i disagree.
how you deal with it as a family is your decision. but i think it needs to be dealt with.
if he had a small issue with his ucl last year,i would say he is being overused this year. pitching once a week in high school is a normal thing .especially in the early season. in my opinion ucl injurys don't just happen they accumulate over time. there are many people that never have problems,and they and their parents will tell you that 3 days rest is ok after 120 pitch outing. i disagree.
how you deal with it as a family is your decision. but i think it needs to be dealt with.
I think the current course of action we have decided on is for p16 to talk with the asst. coach who is handling the pitchers, and let him know of our concerns, perhaps get some advice on how to approach the head coach. I'm not sure how asserive asst coach feels with HC, but he may even be the best person to voice concerns to the HC if he is willing. We will be monitoring the situation carefully, and if we see this developing into a problem again, we will be quick to step in. We are his parents and we are responsible for his health. Personally, I don't care if he could throw 110 mph after TJ surgery--to me (in the medical field), common sense sports management to head off the problem makes more sense than to TRY to repair it after the damage has been done. I thank most all of you for helpful and insightful comments. I'll keep you posted.
quote:Posted by Bobblehead: Tim I know guys who have had TJ surgury and they are still throwing 90 mph and are shooting hoops.
Bobblehead We all know lots of guys who had Tommy John. That is the problem. I happen to know two college teammates of my son who had TJS and never pitched in college before giving up after 2 or 3 years. Nobody hears about those guys. They simply disappear back into the student body.
The urban myth is that Tommy John surgery is 100% successful and kids throw better than before. That simply isn't true. The success rate for major leaguers is 80-85% and less for amateur players. BTW it hurts like hell.
Fit Young Pitchers See Elbow Repair as Cure-All
Dad it is some where around 85%. Can't remember the exact %. The % is due to guys giving up because it is hard frustrating work to get back. I know a catcher who never came back and it was because he wouldn't put the effort in.
There is always risk of injury when you throw a BB. There is nothing that will prevent injury there are only things that you can do to minimize the risk.
I wonder when P16 1st felt pain and how long it took to shut him down ?
Many keep throwing when they feel minor pain and that leads to more serious issues. Maybe this guys mechanics are not the greatest, maybe he was over used last year. Who knows she only gave us this years counts and they are not out of wack for a senior at HS.
There is always risk of injury when you throw a BB. There is nothing that will prevent injury there are only things that you can do to minimize the risk.
I wonder when P16 1st felt pain and how long it took to shut him down ?
Many keep throwing when they feel minor pain and that leads to more serious issues. Maybe this guys mechanics are not the greatest, maybe he was over used last year. Who knows she only gave us this years counts and they are not out of wack for a senior at HS.
Pitcher16mom,
Check this out from an earlier post. It might give you some insight. In my opinion he is throwing too much and though he feels fine now. The effects of pitching are cumulative and he may suffer for it later.
http://clubhousegas.com/archive_player_prog.asp?id=160
Check this out from an earlier post. It might give you some insight. In my opinion he is throwing too much and though he feels fine now. The effects of pitching are cumulative and he may suffer for it later.
http://clubhousegas.com/archive_player_prog.asp?id=160
TJS isn't the panacea you want to believe. Plenty of guys are left with joint pain making pitching impossible. I'm not making it up. It doesn't always work, regardless of rehab. You can pitch well only so long, with only so much pain, before simply quitting.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Who knows she only gave us this years counts and they are not out of wack for a senior at HS.
262 pitch count in a week isn't even normal for a healthy pitcher.
Your son pitched 10 innings in 10 days, how can you tell someone what is not too much. The day your son pitches 15 innings in a week, in three days, without significant rest let me know if that's ok.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Dad it is some where around 85%. Can't remember the exact %. The % is due to guys giving up because it is hard frustrating work to get back. I know a catcher who never came back and it was because he wouldn't put the effort in.
There is always risk of injury when you throw a BB. There is nothing that will prevent injury there are only things that you can do to minimize the risk.
I wonder when P16 1st felt pain and how long it took to shut him down ?
Many keep throwing when they feel minor pain and that leads to more serious issues. Maybe this guys mechanics are not the greatest, maybe he was over used last year. Who knows she only gave us this years counts and they are not out of wack for a senior at HS.
I'm just wondering if you think ALL Pitchers should follow Dice-K's routine he used in High School and now in the Pros?
To p16mom,
Just wondering, you may have already said it here or on the other thread, but does your Son play a position when he isn't Pitching?
TPM in highschool he pitched far more than that and more than P16. His only shoulder pain came in Summer collegiate ball as I explained. It was the slackest workout/prep he had ever done in his pitching history. He feels much better since he got back to college and resummed his heavy work load. He has told me many times that the harder he works the better he feels.
He had to do extra stretching and take anti inflamatory pills to reduce swelling of the biscep tendon untill he got his arm in shape. He is 100% now and didn't stop his throwing.
He had to do extra stretching and take anti inflamatory pills to reduce swelling of the biscep tendon untill he got his arm in shape. He is 100% now and didn't stop his throwing.
Dad I think I agreed with you. Not sure why you would think I would think you are kidding. I have seen the stats over the years and there as in all stats is a reason for them. The surgury itself is quit simple . U have seen the surgury and I have also seen that video of the Virginia coach. There was a thread debating that video a few weeks back.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
TPM in highschool he pitched far more than that and more than P16. His only shoulder pain came in Summer collegiate ball as I explained. It was the slackest workout/prep he had ever done in his pitching history. He feels much better since he got back to college and resummed his heavy work load. He has told me many times that the harder he works the better he feels.
He had to do extra stretching and take anti inflamatory pills to reduce swelling of the biscep tendon untill he got his arm in shape. He is 100% now and didn't stop his throwing.
Whatever your son did in HS should never compare to what another player is doing in HS.
What heavy workload are you talking about has your son had in college. His lighter workload has offset his HS heavy workload. That's the point.
The heavy workload for a player wanting to go play college ball, should not be done in LL or HS.
You speak about parents not interfering, yet you stated you are making son's adjustments to his mechanics from watching him over videp streaming. Isn't that interfering? You tell p16mom that she spoke badly of his coach, but a dad having to give pitching lessons over the internet doesn't say much for the pitching program. That hurts a program more than you may realize.
Hey..at work today and a little busy. I'll try to come back to the computer when I have a few minutes. If he had arm pain during the spring HS season last year, he didn't verbalize it. He did complain of a lot of back pain, we took him to the docs and the chiro's to try to help. Coach did know this, and continued to ask him to pitch last year. I should have stepped in then. It was before travel ball started and at the very beginning of the summer HS season that he began to complain of arm difficulties. There was about a 3 week period off between end of HS spring season and start of HS summer season. At first he was saying he was just having trouble getting some of his pitches to "work", but then it quickly evolved into..I can't get 'em to work because my arm is bothering me. I think it was bothering him before but he didn't want to acknowledge it. And yes, HS coach does know that he had to placed on rest last summer and why. He wasn't pitching really at all for HS Summer games as they are really more like practice for the younger payers or those who did not get much playing time during regualr season.
TPM my son's workouts are very heavy while at college.
I said I would not approach the coach with complaints. He has had 3 different P coaches in 3 years and that is all I will say about college ball. His aligment was off and I pointed it out to him. He watched the video and agreed. He made the adjustments and had 2 shut out appearences after that.
Those 10.1 innings were over 4 appearences in relief and he never exceeded 4 innings at any one outtings so I am not sure what your point is.
2of the appearances were in 40+ mph winds blowing straight to center field. That is very difficult to throw in from a mechanics point of view as 1s controlling your pitches. I found he was pulling off line too much and the adjustment was helpful.
I said I would not approach the coach with complaints. He has had 3 different P coaches in 3 years and that is all I will say about college ball. His aligment was off and I pointed it out to him. He watched the video and agreed. He made the adjustments and had 2 shut out appearences after that.
Those 10.1 innings were over 4 appearences in relief and he never exceeded 4 innings at any one outtings so I am not sure what your point is.
2of the appearances were in 40+ mph winds blowing straight to center field. That is very difficult to throw in from a mechanics point of view as 1s controlling your pitches. I found he was pulling off line too much and the adjustment was helpful.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Dad I think I agreed with you. Not sure why you would think I would think you are kidding. I have seen the stats over the years and there as in all stats is a reason for them. The surgury itself is quit simple . U have seen the surgury and I have also seen that video of the Virginia coach. There was a thread debating that video a few weeks back.
I don't know anything about a Virginia coach video. Every surgery is simple on someone else, I guess. I saw the surgery on HBO. They cut open the elbow, drill holes through it, rip a tendon out of your leg, wrap it around and through the elbow and sew you up. Simple compared to brain surgery, maybe. If you want to trivialize the whole thing, thats fine. We'll agree to disagree.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
TPM my son's workouts are very heavy while at college.
I said I would not approach the coach with complaints. He has had 3 different P coaches in 3 years and that is all I will say about college ball. His aligment was off and I pointed it out to him. He watched the video and agreed. He made the adjustments and had 2 shut out appearences after that.
Those 10.1 innings were over 4 appearences in relief and he never exceeded 4 innings at any one outtings so I am not sure what your point is.
2of the appearances were in 40+ mph winds blowing straight to center field. That is very difficult to throw in from a mechanics point of view as 1s controlling your pitches. I found he was pulling off line too much and the adjustment was helpful.
Everyone has heavy workouts in college, that's why most go to college to build strength and conditioning, unfortunetly not so in all HS programs. What gives you teh right to question the players condition?
Your son pitched 3 innings, 4 days later 1 inning, 3 days later 2.1 innings and 3 days later 4 innings as a reliever, completely different than a starter.
Weather should never be used for an excuse, that's the way it is and you have to deal with it. Let's see, last year son was pitching in torrid rain and made a costly error on a throw, the ball was wet, they didn't take that into account on the error.
Then he pitched in 19-20 degree windchill and couldn't feel the ball, that wasn't taken into account in his stats (which happened to be pretty good). The he pitched in 100% humidity where the ball wouldn't move. And if you ever been to Doug Kingsmore, or any ballpark, you don't want to be a pitcher with any wind blowing anything out. But you adjust.
bb1 posted the video.
Dr Andrews also has some great video. He sets approx guide lines but admits that they just don't know the answers.
I stronly believe that all the things mentioned can have their affects on arm injury but also believ some people are prone to injury.
I have a friend who just finished 4 years at U of Arkinsas LR and he was always having surgury by Andrews. Even in HS he was always having issues. He was throwing 85 at 14 and 91-92 last season. He RS one year and missed most of his last season. He was a closer and didn't throw a lot of pitches ever. He is one of several that I know with similar problems who were not abused and actually were under pitched.
There is no magic formula. If you under pitch you won't develop your arm. personally I would rather my son threw more pitches than less but with the knowledge that you have to shut down if your arm is not 100 % until you are checked out. My son was on the paranoid side of caution and as I have said he has pulled himself when he felt it was necessary. To me it is more about educating your son and getting him to control his outtings. Not being afraid to say no is very important. That does not mean you wimp out on your team but understand it is for the good of your team and yourself.
Dr Andrews also has some great video. He sets approx guide lines but admits that they just don't know the answers.
I stronly believe that all the things mentioned can have their affects on arm injury but also believ some people are prone to injury.
I have a friend who just finished 4 years at U of Arkinsas LR and he was always having surgury by Andrews. Even in HS he was always having issues. He was throwing 85 at 14 and 91-92 last season. He RS one year and missed most of his last season. He was a closer and didn't throw a lot of pitches ever. He is one of several that I know with similar problems who were not abused and actually were under pitched.
There is no magic formula. If you under pitch you won't develop your arm. personally I would rather my son threw more pitches than less but with the knowledge that you have to shut down if your arm is not 100 % until you are checked out. My son was on the paranoid side of caution and as I have said he has pulled himself when he felt it was necessary. To me it is more about educating your son and getting him to control his outtings. Not being afraid to say no is very important. That does not mean you wimp out on your team but understand it is for the good of your team and yourself.
TPM I am not sure what your point is. I don't control the outtings my son has. He wants to be a reliver and he has done very well. Your son had some bad outtings last season as they all do.
I am not making an excuse. My son's stats last year werte excellent until the last agme of the season. He had a 2 era and a 211 oba. The last game did his stats in. He was 2nd lowest out of 17 pitchers and some of them are excellent pitcher. His freshman year also was excellent and they finally corrected his stats. I never complained that year either. I remember you went on about my pointing out his stats were wrong. You made a big deal over nothing then.
I know everyone has a heavy work load in college. That was not my point. You have a problem with the english language. My point was he feels better with the work load.
I am not making an excuse. My son's stats last year werte excellent until the last agme of the season. He had a 2 era and a 211 oba. The last game did his stats in. He was 2nd lowest out of 17 pitchers and some of them are excellent pitcher. His freshman year also was excellent and they finally corrected his stats. I never complained that year either. I remember you went on about my pointing out his stats were wrong. You made a big deal over nothing then.
I know everyone has a heavy work load in college. That was not my point. You have a problem with the english language. My point was he feels better with the work load.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Dad it is some where around 85%. Can't remember the exact %. The % is due to guys giving up because it is hard frustrating work to get back. I know a catcher who never came back and it was because he wouldn't put the effort in.
This, to me, is amongst the most inaccurate comments ever posted on this site, and truly an insult to that large population of players(the 15%) who don't get a good outcome/result.
There is absolutely no basis for that statement which, I assume tends to trivialize overuse injuries on the theory you do a quick 15 minute procedure and leave a "zipper."
I would love to see you stand in front of some 18-21 year old, who worked himself to tears for periods up to 2 years after surgery, only to find himself released from baseball.
Please don't trivialize the surgery or the the players who don't make it back following surgery to advance your often stated views on this subject.
BHD,
My point exactly, you on many occassions have voiced your concerns as a parent, whatever it be for, as p16mom has done.
All she did was ask for advice, all situations are different, don't compare what your son did in HS to hers.
I think that she realizes that two things are going on here, her son needs to not hide anything when not feeling well and the coach has to understand he has had issues in the past. The object of the lesson for any young pitcher is never to have to be in the situation her son is in now and needed advice on how to handle it, that's all she was asking. The sad part is that in hS as a parent you need to take control of the situation when the young pitcher won't, because once he goes to college you have very little say in the situation.
It had nothing to do with not being in shape, what you feel is or isn't a normal HS workload, etc. based on what you know or don't know. Always refering to what YOUR son did in HS has no bearing on the discussion. We all have to be careful in drawing conclusions. As an example I could draw my conclusion that your son's lighter load in college is a direct result of his heavy load you speak of proudly in HS. Every situation is different, give advice on what you feel is helpful advice, not what worked or didn't work for your son. The reason I say this is because the player lives in a state where year round baseball is alive and well, and that can take a toll on young pitchers. And playing on 4 different teams in one season (if pitching) is IMO, the worst scenerio I have ever heard. Your son may have never sustained an injury because you were aware of what he should or shouldnot do, not everyone is as educated on that as you are.
My point exactly, you on many occassions have voiced your concerns as a parent, whatever it be for, as p16mom has done.
All she did was ask for advice, all situations are different, don't compare what your son did in HS to hers.
I think that she realizes that two things are going on here, her son needs to not hide anything when not feeling well and the coach has to understand he has had issues in the past. The object of the lesson for any young pitcher is never to have to be in the situation her son is in now and needed advice on how to handle it, that's all she was asking. The sad part is that in hS as a parent you need to take control of the situation when the young pitcher won't, because once he goes to college you have very little say in the situation.
It had nothing to do with not being in shape, what you feel is or isn't a normal HS workload, etc. based on what you know or don't know. Always refering to what YOUR son did in HS has no bearing on the discussion. We all have to be careful in drawing conclusions. As an example I could draw my conclusion that your son's lighter load in college is a direct result of his heavy load you speak of proudly in HS. Every situation is different, give advice on what you feel is helpful advice, not what worked or didn't work for your son. The reason I say this is because the player lives in a state where year round baseball is alive and well, and that can take a toll on young pitchers. And playing on 4 different teams in one season (if pitching) is IMO, the worst scenerio I have ever heard. Your son may have never sustained an injury because you were aware of what he should or shouldnot do, not everyone is as educated on that as you are.
Nobody can come close to understanding an injury surgery, rehab, getting cut, ending a career, until they have seen it or experienced it. Nobody ever works harder that those kids. Some heal, but some don't.
quote:I would love to see you stand in front of some 18-21 year old, who worked himself to tears for periods up to 2 years after surgery, only to find himself released from baseball.
[quote]There is absolutely no basis for that statement which, I assume tends to trivialize overuse injuries on the theory you do a quick 15 minute procedure and leave a "zipper."
I would love to see you stand in front of some 18-21 year old, who worked himself to tears for periods up to 2 years after surgery, only to find himself released from baseball.
I can't see where I made light of the surgury. I said it is extremely hard coming back after surgury and that is why the stats are not higher on the good result side.
I know yours on had the surgury and it is a real cahllege to get back. My one friend has had it twice and he is one of several I know hwo came back.
The stats were published and I can tell you that they were in the range I stated. Dr Andrews has commented on it several times that it is not always successful.
I do wish you would read what I said. Your son is not the only one who has had the surury and been released.
BHD,
I quoted what you said.
Your comment was that the percentage who don't make it back is due to the fact that group doesn't work hard enough.
I read your post and quoted it back to you.
It is insulting and wrong in every way other than the percentage who don't recover.
When you post something and it is wrong, why not admit you were wrong?
I quoted what you said.
Your comment was that the percentage who don't make it back is due to the fact that group doesn't work hard enough.
I read your post and quoted it back to you.
It is insulting and wrong in every way other than the percentage who don't recover.
When you post something and it is wrong, why not admit you were wrong?
Sorry BHD, but you did trivialize it. When one poster came on and said that there was cause for concern, and that he was tired of seeing injured young players and zippers all over the place. You basically responded so what...I know plenty of players who have zippers and they can stil throw 90 and have no problems. That is a trivialization of the procedure to me..not to mention your later comments.
I'm glad to see that your tone has changed slightly today. I'm sure it is because you have a bit more respect for your fellow oldtimer HSSB'ers. TPM is right, you don't know me, or the situation fully, yet you jumped in with both feet and some pretty broad assumptions..you now state that you didn't
have all the information. Anytime someone asked me for more info, I tried to provide it--I'm sure I missed a couple here and there. I even tried to post rationally to your comments, but you just ignored and came up with your own things. Next time, perhaps you can ask for more information first (and be willing to receive it) before making the type of often offensive assumptions and remarks that you did. Personally, I tend to think now that your posts reflected your own personal issues, not mine.
I'm glad to see that your tone has changed slightly today. I'm sure it is because you have a bit more respect for your fellow oldtimer HSSB'ers. TPM is right, you don't know me, or the situation fully, yet you jumped in with both feet and some pretty broad assumptions..you now state that you didn't
have all the information. Anytime someone asked me for more info, I tried to provide it--I'm sure I missed a couple here and there. I even tried to post rationally to your comments, but you just ignored and came up with your own things. Next time, perhaps you can ask for more information first (and be willing to receive it) before making the type of often offensive assumptions and remarks that you did. Personally, I tend to think now that your posts reflected your own personal issues, not mine.
quote:Originally posted by Pitcher16Mom:
When one poster came on and said that there was cause for concern, and that he was tired of seeing injured young players and zippers all over the place. You basically responded so what...I know plenty of players who have zippers and they can stil throw 90 and have no problems.
I don't get that either. I thought it was just me.
quote:I know plenty of players who have zippers and they can stil throw 90 and have no problems. That is a trivialization of the procedure to me..not to mention your later comments.
That is a fact. there are guys on this board who's son's have come back after TJ.
If you think that is trivialization then go for it. You left out the points about hard work and frustrating which shows clearly that it is not rivial.
The % of guys who give up is very high and understandable.
PM I have had no issues and am very happy with things. My son has not missed an inning due to injury since he was 12 except the time he pulled himself.
I have never gone after a coach for lack of PT or over use. He took care of himself and the time he felt he had to pull hiself, he called the coach to the mound and told him. That was in the middle of a great outting but he did what he was taught. He had a stressed ulna and the doc told him to take it easy and keep throwing.
Take my comments and bash them as you feel you must but my advice stands and I know you will head it.
There is life after TJ. If that is trivialization knock youself out.
The fact is PM you only posted partial facts when you asked for an opinion and only added relevant facts after the thread had got interesting.
Just be happy I am not expressing what I really think.
Just be happy I am not expressing what I really think.
BHD,
You just keep digging the hole deeper, in my view, each time you comment on the lack of success from surgery being due to the player, their "giving up," and that being understandable.
That is just plain nonsense.
For this thread, you have stated your qualifications to include hanging with the pitching coaches in MLB and MILB.
The fact is there is not a single MLB or MILB pitching coach/organization that would accept or tolerate pitching on Wednesday(60 or so pitches), coming back on Saturday on two, yes 2 days rest, and throwing 96 pitches and then coming back on Wednesday, on three, yes 3 days rest, and throwing 112 pitches, especially early in a season.
This claim that they count by the time the game ends until the next one begins isn't valid and isn't used by any MLB/Milb organization.
If it was you then need to build in that 96 pitches is actually increased by about 60 for warming up in the first inning and between innings and by another 50 or more pitches in the bullpen. 96 pitches is then closer to 200 and 112 pitches is then closer to 225.
Milb teams would fire the entire minor league staff if they did that early in a season. I assume you would know that.
I have no trouble understanding your views that pitchers need to throw more, not less.
I do have trouble when you know, or should know, that pitching coaches in Milb would never have any pitcher of their's do what is being posted for this young high school pitcher.
You just keep digging the hole deeper, in my view, each time you comment on the lack of success from surgery being due to the player, their "giving up," and that being understandable.
That is just plain nonsense.
For this thread, you have stated your qualifications to include hanging with the pitching coaches in MLB and MILB.
The fact is there is not a single MLB or MILB pitching coach/organization that would accept or tolerate pitching on Wednesday(60 or so pitches), coming back on Saturday on two, yes 2 days rest, and throwing 96 pitches and then coming back on Wednesday, on three, yes 3 days rest, and throwing 112 pitches, especially early in a season.
This claim that they count by the time the game ends until the next one begins isn't valid and isn't used by any MLB/Milb organization.
If it was you then need to build in that 96 pitches is actually increased by about 60 for warming up in the first inning and between innings and by another 50 or more pitches in the bullpen. 96 pitches is then closer to 200 and 112 pitches is then closer to 225.
Milb teams would fire the entire minor league staff if they did that early in a season. I assume you would know that.
I have no trouble understanding your views that pitchers need to throw more, not less.
I do have trouble when you know, or should know, that pitching coaches in Milb would never have any pitcher of their's do what is being posted for this young high school pitcher.
BHD,
Most likely the players we know who came back was because they had more talent to begin with and coachable to learn to pitch over again to correct mistakes if poor mechanics (not overuse) caused the issue.
My son's BF threw a steady diet of CB's in HS. It took 3 years to come back because he had to learn to throw different stuff. Another teammate, who had excellent stuff, was back in 18 months, his problem was overuse not poor mechanics or lack of good pitches. Another teammate found that even after two years of trying to get back, his stuff still wasn't always accurate and still felt uncomfortable with the shoulder repair he had before his TJS. He was probably one of the hardest workers in the gym and beat out many of his teammates in their fall physical and mental challenge. All rehabed by the same coach who maked you work your butt off. What the college coach said to me, most of it could have been prevented because the players were overworked in HS but just didn't realize what was going on.
I do feel that you put TJS in a "it's no big deal", teh same as INF and Dad04 and p16mom. Maybe that's not what yuo meant but how you stated it.
An why does every one of your posts revert back to the same stories about what your son did or didn't do? I think thats the 12th time I heard about yur son's sore ulner and how he made a comback. Or who you know, or how many MLB teams you have watched? I am not understanding that, again you cannot compare what your son did or didn't do to another.
Most likely the players we know who came back was because they had more talent to begin with and coachable to learn to pitch over again to correct mistakes if poor mechanics (not overuse) caused the issue.
My son's BF threw a steady diet of CB's in HS. It took 3 years to come back because he had to learn to throw different stuff. Another teammate, who had excellent stuff, was back in 18 months, his problem was overuse not poor mechanics or lack of good pitches. Another teammate found that even after two years of trying to get back, his stuff still wasn't always accurate and still felt uncomfortable with the shoulder repair he had before his TJS. He was probably one of the hardest workers in the gym and beat out many of his teammates in their fall physical and mental challenge. All rehabed by the same coach who maked you work your butt off. What the college coach said to me, most of it could have been prevented because the players were overworked in HS but just didn't realize what was going on.
I do feel that you put TJS in a "it's no big deal", teh same as INF and Dad04 and p16mom. Maybe that's not what yuo meant but how you stated it.
An why does every one of your posts revert back to the same stories about what your son did or didn't do? I think thats the 12th time I heard about yur son's sore ulner and how he made a comback. Or who you know, or how many MLB teams you have watched? I am not understanding that, again you cannot compare what your son did or didn't do to another.
I never said MLB coaches count those hrs. I said you start resting between pitching when it ends and you pitch again. Once you finish your outting you do all the post game stuff and your arm is starting its recovery. That is why icing and light jogging is so important (another source of discussion). It is about recovery time. and is not based totally on callendar days. That is the same as pitch counts vs innings thrown. They are not the same.
I am not concern about digging a hole. I gave my opinions and you don't agree nor does PM. TPM never does so I can always expect a verbal war with her. You and I a;ways disagree so just a different point of view. If you think facts are wrong then get some from Andrews web site. My only point was that I know not all pitchers and catchers who had TJs come back. I also stand by the point that many give up because of the difficulty of rehabing so if you feel that insults you well we just have to live with that. Personally I did not intend to insult you or anyone on that issue .
I am not concern about digging a hole. I gave my opinions and you don't agree nor does PM. TPM never does so I can always expect a verbal war with her. You and I a;ways disagree so just a different point of view. If you think facts are wrong then get some from Andrews web site. My only point was that I know not all pitchers and catchers who had TJs come back. I also stand by the point that many give up because of the difficulty of rehabing so if you feel that insults you well we just have to live with that. Personally I did not intend to insult you or anyone on that issue .
I see that INF posted while I was posting as well and he is correct.
My pitchers routine is based on a 4 day rotation, rest after their start, BP the next day, rest, then pitch. All on a specified pitch count early in season of 30 pitches 9even in teh pen) or they go into a 5th, not including warm ups. All very carefully controlled. That's 90 pitches in 4 days, 180 in 8, working up to a safe limit during games to strengthen teh arm. p16's pitcher was 262 in a week in march, not sure if that included BP and warm ups.
In college he was on a seven day rotation with 2 BP's included not to exceed 180 pitch count in my guesstatmation. His pnes were adjusted according to how long he went in a game. All in a controlled situation.
If you think her son's PC was still in line, you need to throw out that book you keep refering too.
My pitchers routine is based on a 4 day rotation, rest after their start, BP the next day, rest, then pitch. All on a specified pitch count early in season of 30 pitches 9even in teh pen) or they go into a 5th, not including warm ups. All very carefully controlled. That's 90 pitches in 4 days, 180 in 8, working up to a safe limit during games to strengthen teh arm. p16's pitcher was 262 in a week in march, not sure if that included BP and warm ups.
In college he was on a seven day rotation with 2 BP's included not to exceed 180 pitch count in my guesstatmation. His pnes were adjusted according to how long he went in a game. All in a controlled situation.
If you think her son's PC was still in line, you need to throw out that book you keep refering too.
I actually agree with most of what you stated. You might have insulted someone with the talent part.
I do believe I was asked about my credentials so blame the asker. The story about the Ulna is the only injury story I have from the pre college days.
TPM the ML guys are always very strictly controlled. Has nothing to do with what they are capable of doing. When they invest in them they bring them up slowly and often try to make changes in their delivery.
What I meant is that there is life after TJ but read into it what you like.
I do believe I was asked about my credentials so blame the asker. The story about the Ulna is the only injury story I have from the pre college days.
TPM the ML guys are always very strictly controlled. Has nothing to do with what they are capable of doing. When they invest in them they bring them up slowly and often try to make changes in their delivery.
What I meant is that there is life after TJ but read into it what you like.
