Coach May, well said. You're obviously one of the good ones. I'll bet in addition to watching your kid's pitch counts that you also go out of your way to work on developing enough pitchers so that you can avoid abusing a kid's arm. It is my opinion that many of the coaches who push kids like the one that started this discussion are basically football people and don't have a clue when it comes to arm care. Maybe, just maybe, if there were pitch count limits then some of these clueless coaches would start to realize that they need to nurture a few more pitchers on their staff.
Hey we have run out of pitchers before. Three games in a week #1 goes 5 reliever comes in finishes game. #1 done for the week. Game 2 #2 throws at least 5 done for the week reliever comes in finishes up hes done for the week. Game 3 #3 gets shelled early pull him throw the second baseman , third baseman , right fielder , take your a** whoopin like a man and come back next week. So what? You develop as many pitchers as you can and at the same time you understand that you will never have enough good pitching to ensure that you have a stud on the hill every night. When you get in the playoffs everyone throws #1 in the first round and everyone throws #2 in the second round. The coaches that throw the same kid out there every game are clowns and have no business coaching. I would have to agree with a parent that just flat out told the coach "My son is not going to pitch". If a coach does something like this the parent has every right to say something and step in. But the fact is most parents are not going to say anything. And most if not all players are going to take the ball when the coach asks them to. I dont think mandantory pitch counts are the answer. I do believe that getting rid of (Coaches) that have no clue is the answer.
Its ok to have pitchers go say 2 and even 3 days in a row.In fact we had one of our guys throw 2 innings on tuesday,1 on wednesday,1 thursday.He had quick innings and didnt have to throw many pitches to get outs,but holy **** thats alot for that one kid
Coach May,
I agree with everything you have said in your two post and I hope the majority of the coaches out there are like you when it comes to handling pitchers. Only problem I see though is your solution is to get rid of the coaches who abuse kids arms and that will never happen as long as the coach keeps winning. I don't know if you visited the thread over on the other website but every single one of the team in questions fans see nothing wrong with what the coach did because they won the "Big Game". Like you I agree the situation has nothing to do with how many innings a kid should pitch but in reality the heat of the moment associated with the state playoffs blinds people to the reality of the situation. I think pitch counts are hard to monitor but reasonable rules on innings allowed should be put in place because the abusive coaches are not going away as long as they keep winning.
I agree with everything you have said in your two post and I hope the majority of the coaches out there are like you when it comes to handling pitchers. Only problem I see though is your solution is to get rid of the coaches who abuse kids arms and that will never happen as long as the coach keeps winning. I don't know if you visited the thread over on the other website but every single one of the team in questions fans see nothing wrong with what the coach did because they won the "Big Game". Like you I agree the situation has nothing to do with how many innings a kid should pitch but in reality the heat of the moment associated with the state playoffs blinds people to the reality of the situation. I think pitch counts are hard to monitor but reasonable rules on innings allowed should be put in place because the abusive coaches are not going away as long as they keep winning.
rule of thumb to live by :
1 hour of rest for every pitch thrown from the mound in a game situation. If you abide by this rule and run after throwing to flush out the joints, you will most likely keep from getting injured.
And for the poster who compared softball pitchers to baseball pitchers, you obviously don't have a clue - there is no comparison.
The coach should have never even asked the kid could he go, of course the kid is going to tell the coach he feels fine.
I hope the kid does not have any lasting effects from the abuse. I do not hold the parents at fault, It all comes down to the coach, you would be surprised at how many parents of pitchers do not have any idea about how to take care of thier son's arm.
CV
1 hour of rest for every pitch thrown from the mound in a game situation. If you abide by this rule and run after throwing to flush out the joints, you will most likely keep from getting injured.
And for the poster who compared softball pitchers to baseball pitchers, you obviously don't have a clue - there is no comparison.
The coach should have never even asked the kid could he go, of course the kid is going to tell the coach he feels fine.
I hope the kid does not have any lasting effects from the abuse. I do not hold the parents at fault, It all comes down to the coach, you would be surprised at how many parents of pitchers do not have any idea about how to take care of thier son's arm.
CV
Been reading this thread and Coach May and TR have said it best. There is NO game worth ruining a student athletes future, whatever it may be. It is amazing how often we play an opponent and I look over at one of my coaches and ask the question, "why is that pitcher still throwing as he is way over 100 pitches and we are in the 4th or 5th inning???" At 70 pitches, we are already setting up the next pitcher. While it is unfortunate, as long as baseball is being played, there will be coaches that either don't understand the harm in over throwing a student athlete or just simply, don't care. There may be a combination of both, one never knows. Let's be candid here, this is not only happening at the HS level, I see it in AAU ball and rec ball as well. So if a student athlete is throwing the century mark in rec ball and AAU ball and then gets to HS ball and is throwing 100 plus pitches, now look at the totality of circumstances with years of overthrowing. Coach May said it in his post, there will almost never be a student athlete that says, "coach, I am ready to be taken out." As the coach, you have to make the decision and pull your pitcher, not have a mound negotiation. Pitching coach first visit, Head Coach is the indicator of the hook.
I could go on and on about this and some of the posts in this thread but the short version is simple, safety first, which equates to arm health. For the situation where you are short on pitching, that's baseball. No win is worth hurting a player's arm. The way I look at it, if you are not deep enough to replace a pitcher in the playoffs that has a ridiculous pitch count, how far do you think you can go anyway?? So why wreck a student athlete's future?
As for the knocks on the high school coaches, not all HS coaches prescribe to this madness! However, I know it is going on as I see it every year and it amazes me. We don't allow this to happen in our program, no matter what the situation is. I have lost games as a result, again, no win is worth the risk. I have had situations where we could have brought a kid back to pitch after he threw 90 pitches on Monday and we were in a dogfight on Wed and could have used the Mon pitcher. Didn't do it, as he was in his rest period.
If this is ever going to get better, ALL coaches, begining at the rec ball level need to subscribe to some standards on pitch counts. This is not an exact science but I think we all agree that the century mark and above is harmful to the arm health of student athletes.
In closing, I have told my pitchers that pain is the "dummy light" like in your cars. When you feel pain, its shut down time. Taking the pain relief pills and icy hot are not the answer to throwing more pitches. It is stressed that if you are sore, to let me or my pitching coach know. My point being, if you want to go as far as you can, you must take care of your arm.
I could go on and on about this and some of the posts in this thread but the short version is simple, safety first, which equates to arm health. For the situation where you are short on pitching, that's baseball. No win is worth hurting a player's arm. The way I look at it, if you are not deep enough to replace a pitcher in the playoffs that has a ridiculous pitch count, how far do you think you can go anyway?? So why wreck a student athlete's future?
As for the knocks on the high school coaches, not all HS coaches prescribe to this madness! However, I know it is going on as I see it every year and it amazes me. We don't allow this to happen in our program, no matter what the situation is. I have lost games as a result, again, no win is worth the risk. I have had situations where we could have brought a kid back to pitch after he threw 90 pitches on Monday and we were in a dogfight on Wed and could have used the Mon pitcher. Didn't do it, as he was in his rest period.
If this is ever going to get better, ALL coaches, begining at the rec ball level need to subscribe to some standards on pitch counts. This is not an exact science but I think we all agree that the century mark and above is harmful to the arm health of student athletes.
In closing, I have told my pitchers that pain is the "dummy light" like in your cars. When you feel pain, its shut down time. Taking the pain relief pills and icy hot are not the answer to throwing more pitches. It is stressed that if you are sore, to let me or my pitching coach know. My point being, if you want to go as far as you can, you must take care of your arm.
Coach May,
I loved your response. I think i can speak for every parent that we wish ALL coaches were like you. Unfortunately, they are not, and the situation that started this thread shows that, obviously this coach believed the playoff win was more important that handling his pitchers in a responsible manner.
I loved your response. I think i can speak for every parent that we wish ALL coaches were like you. Unfortunately, they are not, and the situation that started this thread shows that, obviously this coach believed the playoff win was more important that handling his pitchers in a responsible manner.
I always find this topic interesting. everyone has their idea of what is overuse and there is definitley a point where the arm is overused. Not all pitchers are the same. Mechanics,pitching style, body type, pitch selection and velocity are some of the main isue as are weather, conditioning etc.
My son would probably fall into most opinions of over use. His arm is in perfect shape at 19YO. He is the judge of how his arm feels and he is almost paranoid of injury. He has pulled himself a few times if he feels stiff or too tired. It was our job to give him the confidence to say when he was done. No coach that he has ever had was not concerned about his health. I know you will find some coaches who are more interested in winning but I believe that is rare.
I follow and talk to many pitchers that I know. 2 days ago a pitcher who I have known for years talked to me about his sore arm. He was a JR at a D1 NCAA sunbelt team. He laed his team in ERA and is a small framed short guy with a 90mph fastball and has experienced arm trouble for years and has had tommy john surgury 2yrs ago. He came back better than ever.
A well conditioned athlete who takes care of his arm can throw much longer than parents think. The pitcher has to be able to shut himself down when it is necessary. Unfortunatly a lot of pitchers do not have the maturity to do this. Our AAA teams impossed an inning rule up to bantam level and the HS allowed a pitcher 12 outs. Both these rules were frustrating for the great pitchers who were in top condition but it did work for the weekend warriors who did not train properly.
My son would probably fall into most opinions of over use. His arm is in perfect shape at 19YO. He is the judge of how his arm feels and he is almost paranoid of injury. He has pulled himself a few times if he feels stiff or too tired. It was our job to give him the confidence to say when he was done. No coach that he has ever had was not concerned about his health. I know you will find some coaches who are more interested in winning but I believe that is rare.
I follow and talk to many pitchers that I know. 2 days ago a pitcher who I have known for years talked to me about his sore arm. He was a JR at a D1 NCAA sunbelt team. He laed his team in ERA and is a small framed short guy with a 90mph fastball and has experienced arm trouble for years and has had tommy john surgury 2yrs ago. He came back better than ever.
A well conditioned athlete who takes care of his arm can throw much longer than parents think. The pitcher has to be able to shut himself down when it is necessary. Unfortunatly a lot of pitchers do not have the maturity to do this. Our AAA teams impossed an inning rule up to bantam level and the HS allowed a pitcher 12 outs. Both these rules were frustrating for the great pitchers who were in top condition but it did work for the weekend warriors who did not train properly.
futurecatcher ...
Granted, that may seem like a lot for one guy and altho it may be early in his 'career' to be tagged a reliever or closer, that sounds like the situation as opposed to a starting pitcher who throws 6-7 innings per game, and then comes back to start another game the next day or the day after that.
At the college level, we have seen some pitchers ... Kirk Saarloos from Cal State Fullerton is one case in point ... who could throw an inning to close a Fri game and then be the Sunday starter. However, I have not seen many pitchers at any level ... little league, travel/elite, high school, college ... who have been abused by the coach the way this kid was have a lot of success at the next level or two ... too often their 'rubber arms' just stop working well and the kid has to hang up his cleats prematurely. I can think of several pitchers that we have 'watched' over the years who were taken deep into innings and pitch counts in critical games/world series etc because the coach apparently didn't 'trust' other pitchers to get the job done and winning was the name of the game. Some have even gone on to play professionally and unfortuantely have lost some of their best stuff after years of (my perception) overuse. JMHO
quote:In fact we had one of our guys throw 2 innings on tuesday,1 on wednesday,1 thursday.
Granted, that may seem like a lot for one guy and altho it may be early in his 'career' to be tagged a reliever or closer, that sounds like the situation as opposed to a starting pitcher who throws 6-7 innings per game, and then comes back to start another game the next day or the day after that.
At the college level, we have seen some pitchers ... Kirk Saarloos from Cal State Fullerton is one case in point ... who could throw an inning to close a Fri game and then be the Sunday starter. However, I have not seen many pitchers at any level ... little league, travel/elite, high school, college ... who have been abused by the coach the way this kid was have a lot of success at the next level or two ... too often their 'rubber arms' just stop working well and the kid has to hang up his cleats prematurely. I can think of several pitchers that we have 'watched' over the years who were taken deep into innings and pitch counts in critical games/world series etc because the coach apparently didn't 'trust' other pitchers to get the job done and winning was the name of the game. Some have even gone on to play professionally and unfortuantely have lost some of their best stuff after years of (my perception) overuse. JMHO
Thank for your responses, it looks like no one on this board has condoned using a pitcher this way under any circumstances but the folks from this particular school who are posting over on the Ga Sports Vent seem to think it is ok. I believe this pithcher we have been discussing is scheduled to pitch tomorrow so I will try to find out how he performs and how many pitches he throws. Hopefuly he is ok now and in the future.
I find the pitchign rules for GA to be absurd - if the purpose of the rule is to protect a pitcher against an over-zealous coach [as it should be], why have a laughable rule like this??
BB4life referenced PA rules on the first page: A player may pitch in a maximum of nine (9) innings in one (1) calendar day, but not more than fourteen (14) innings in a Calendar Week (Sunday through Saturday). Delivery of one (1) pitch constitutes having pitched in any inning. If
an inning is played in part on two (2) calendar days, delivery of one (1) pitch in that inning in each of those calendar days constitutes having pitched in two (2) innings. If he pitches in less than three (3) innings in one (1) calendar day,
no rest is required. If he pitches in three (3) innings in one (1) calendar day, he must have one (1) calendar day of rest. If he pitches in four (4) or five (5) innings in one (1) calendar day, he must have two (2) calendar days of rest. If he pitches in six (6) or more innings in one (1) calendar day, he must have three (3) calendar days of rest.
The GEORGIA rule is criminal.
BB4life referenced PA rules on the first page: A player may pitch in a maximum of nine (9) innings in one (1) calendar day, but not more than fourteen (14) innings in a Calendar Week (Sunday through Saturday). Delivery of one (1) pitch constitutes having pitched in any inning. If
an inning is played in part on two (2) calendar days, delivery of one (1) pitch in that inning in each of those calendar days constitutes having pitched in two (2) innings. If he pitches in less than three (3) innings in one (1) calendar day,
no rest is required. If he pitches in three (3) innings in one (1) calendar day, he must have one (1) calendar day of rest. If he pitches in four (4) or five (5) innings in one (1) calendar day, he must have two (2) calendar days of rest. If he pitches in six (6) or more innings in one (1) calendar day, he must have three (3) calendar days of rest.
The GEORGIA rule is criminal.