opinions wanted

Wow, just when you thunk you heard em all.

I'd say if the 1B ended up with the ball, out.
But if the 2B pulled it back out, I'd say no the 1B on the bag didn't have control. I'm leaning towards the player controling the ball must be the one to touch the bag. Interesting, who did come away with the ball?

I think I would have to concur. If he leaves it in the firstbaseman's glove then he is probably out. If the secondbaseman pulls it back then definitely not. A true HTBT.

the 2b kept it there till the play ended. amazing huh?

Kept it there and then pulled it out -- or kept it there and then released it?

kept it there and then pulled it out after the out call

I would tend to disagree.
Sounds similar to the rule that says that the first baseman must have possession of the ball in his hand or glove, independent from his body. (such as when he smothers a throw in the dirt against his chest as the runner passes the bag, and then holds the ball up afterward - which would warrant a safe call)
So, I think that if the first baseman did not have the ball in his hand or glove independently, that the runner would be safe.
But who knows?
(if this is allowed, can you have a "chain" of players extending to 1B?)

my view is that if F4 has and retains the ball, then F3 did not have control.....there is no "daisy chain" or "electric current" theory that supports giving an out call here......

Im with MST and calling safe......

I agree with piaa_ump. F3 must have control of the ball, and the fact that F4 was still holding the ball and never released it would make the runner safe. This is a very unusal play, and one that I have never experienced, but I can see how it could be called an out. Before making a call on this, I would have spoken with my partner behind the plate.

This is one of the classic examples of, "show me the ball" before committing to your call.
F4 shows me safe, F3 shows me out.

piaa_ump,
Funny to the see the "electric fence" comment my first thought when I read the post, "this ain't no electric fence".

after hearing a few replies, ihave several thoughts. 2-9art 1. a catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand of glove of a live ball and firmly holding it, providing he does not use his cap, protector ,mask, pocket or other part of his uniform to trap the ball. in this situation, the ball is in the 1b"s glove. he did not trap it. there is secure possession of the ball by the first baseman of the ball because the 2b is holding it there.since i could not find any other reference on the subject, i feel the defense had the control necessary for an out call.the 1b has his foot on the base and had control of the ball in his glove(with help).2-24a force out is a putout during which a runner who is being forced to advance is tagged out or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base which the forced runner is advancing.2-24art 4 the ball is not consideredas having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching, etc etc.the ball being securely in the 1b's glove i call the runner out.i could not find anything in the rules where the the control of the ball mustbe independent by the 1b.

I think maybe you're reaching for something that's not there. Let's really consider the words:

Having "possession" means "holding" something or "having control" of it. According to your description, the 1B wasn't holding it -- it was being held in his glove by the 2B. And the 1B certainly wasn't controlling it -- same rationale.

And -- the rule you quoted goes beyond just "possession" by using the term "secure" possession. Sounds the the 2B may have had secure possession of it, but certainly not the 1B.

If I'm umping, he's SAFE.

But thanks for the scenario -- extremely interesting ... and it sounds like one none of have ever seen that happen before.

As jjk so aptly put it, F4 shows ball, safe. F3 shows the ball, out. Secure possession is exactly that. If the fielder touching the bag doesn't have control at the end of the play then he can't have secure possesion. If he does then get the out.

after hearing a few replies, ihave several thoughts. 2-9art 1. a catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand of glove of a live ball and firmly holding it, providing he does not use his cap, protector ,mask, pocket or other part of his uniform to trap the ball. in this situation, the ball is in the 1b"s glove

I see the ball in the 1st basemans hand and that hand being in F3's glove, with F4 still having possesion, if he'd a let go.

Did the call get any flak?

no.

thats interesting that there is no rule specifically addressing this. but, in my opinion, it's a little league game with young kids, possession is a little different with younger kids than hs players. hes out

"possession is a little different w/younger kids"? Is that because their little hands cant cover the ball?---possession is possesion, if 1B doesnt have it--safe!

If the first baseman has his foot on the base and control of the ball, the runner is out, assuming the runner had not made it to the base safely before the first baseman had control of the ball with his foot touching part of the base. The keys here are does the defensive man have CONTROL of the ball with his foot or hand IN CONTACT with the base BEFORE the runner touched the base. If all three of these criteria are met, the runner is out.

I've never heard of dual possession before, and I wouldn't think it would matter how many people have possession of the ball as long as the person with their foot on the base (in this case the first baseman) has control of the ball.