OUCH

hmm, I wonder if that was Mrs Bee> posting/helping earlier in the thread ...
other than the thumbs up

why do I wonder?

as more blanks are filled in with legit info there seems to have been some "very good intuition"
at work forming opinion that though unpopular, is now looking better every minute

Anyone know what the temp was there on that game night?--the game was played at night--first pitch at 6:31 PM

And the point I make is not necessarily the weather but the the fact that it is the first game out of the barn--- and it was the first win over a ranked team in over 20 years--- my thought is that a young coach got overzealous in his first Head Coach Game.

Only time will tell if Coach made a mistake

Interesting fact--last summer in the Cape the kid started 9 games and only threw 56 plus innings as he went 5-1--- not a load of work

Boy o' Boy this is a sensitive situation and I have been reading and told my wife I would not get in the middle of this one but here I go...

This is strictly my opinion, 1st ammendment right. So here it goes> Injuries happen folks and no "one person" is to blame. Preventative measures can be taken in season preparation but cool weather is cool weather. Regulate pitch counts, proper rest, warm-ups, stretching,
conditioning etc. etc. do all help but don't safeguard against injury. This is an unfortunate and really kinda of eye-opening and hope the Coach doesn't get fired because of pitch-count, IMHO I do not think a "Michael Brown/FEMA" scapegoat should be made here out of him. This would be a disgrace to allow the possibility of an injury to a player on the field to be blamed on Coach. That would be about like saying we're going to fire Casey Stengal because Yoggi Berra might jam his thumb on a Whitey Ford fastball or even better we are going to fire Bobby Cox because Mark Wohlers threw a 102MPH FB that might throw his shoulder out-of-socket. Bet the Yankees and Braves are glad they didn't. Know what I mean???

My2Cents,
Shep

TR,
got on the phone and called the pitchers dad. He said it was a real nice night, in the low 70's throughout the game. I'm sure over the next few weeks with games at Niagra or Canisous and even here in good old NYC the game time temperture will be half that.

BTW, all during his HS career, his pitch counts were always under 100 and I think he maxed out at 110. This was more a relection on his control then us protecting him. He threw one game in HS where he struck out 17 of 21 and never went to a 3 ball count once and only had a two ball count 5 times. Totals pitches 7 innings 74.

Coach,
Not to beat a dead horse...but...Niagara is coming to Manhattan

catchermom, I wasn't sure so I put an "or" in there figuring they would be a few hours north at some point. I will make it over to the games when your son is in the area. I've become pretty good friends with the Niagra coaches. Good luck today in Cinn.

Last post for me on this thread as it has really gotten a bit out of control, jmo.

I am looking at the situation as a parent of a pitcher. Regardless of who knows who (which should never have been brought up in this discussion), I am just wondering for those backing the coach and player, if you would see things differently if sons were pitchers.

Will be interesting to follow to see how effective this pitcher will be, blisters and all, for the rest of the season.

I was always under the assumption a player is part of a team, and does what is best for the team, not himself. This seems to be more of a personal best than what is best for the team's needs. It's the coach's responsibility, whether he has been coaching for 1 year or 20, to do what's best for the team. That's how I see it, it was just too early in the season. Warm weather or not, senior or not. If it was a 155 pitch count in the game (regardless of what type of pitches thrown), taking bullpen, and throws between innings for warm up on the mound, thatneeds ot be taken into consideration. It just doesn't make sense to me, that's my opinion.

Yes, there are some pitchers that are more fragile than others, and I do notice that many coaches (from all different levels) know their players well enough to know when enough is enough. And down the road, we all know that you can't specifically blame ONE outing, ONE coach, it's an accumulation over time. Even with facts stated, for me, the coach made a poor decision to allow the pitcher to remain in the game.

Merc


Just out of curiosity how does the kids dad feel about the number of IP ?

On a lighter (and apropos only of a much earlier post), nobody can really claim authorship of the seventh inning stretch:

7th Inning Stretch

TR,
It's funny how things go. I was just about to answer you when the father bleeped (Nextel) with a game update 0-0 in the 3rd. He said he had breakfast with his son who said he felt good.
The boys father is a great guy who has never really said much. We share the same careers as firefighters so we talk often and he has always gone by what his son says. Has always trusted the coaches his son has played for and is a great supporter. During his HS career when he said he was sore, or something didn't fell right, what we felt were the right actions were taken (either rest, only DH no 1B etc.). Most times the father was fully aware of both sides. I believe the same has taken place with both Coach Trimper and now Coach Leighton. It has not been uncommon for him to throw in the 120's-130's during his college carrer. Last season he had I believe 30 striaght shutout innings in a row. Then in the MAAC tournament threw 8 more in a 0-0 game before they lost.

For those who acknowledge the 'Gun factor" this kid couldn't break 80 out of HS and now is 85-86 at best. He is also LH.

I think one positive that has been consistant throughout this entire thread is that this kid can flat out pitch.

Love to hear the Northeast guys do well.

How does the saying go?

"Not saying I agree, but I understand"

TPM says

quote:

I am looking at the situation as a parent of a pitcher ... am just wondering for those backing the coach and player, if you would see things differently if sons were pitchers.

with all due respect, you are viewing it as a MOM

and a mom's role in nurturing and protecting her 12 to 18 yr old pitcher is MUCH DIFFERENT than with a 23 yr old MAN



jmo, but you can bank on it

Chairman,

Being a concerned parent regarding the player, whether being a MOM or DAD, I asked a question, which no one seems to have answered.
There are just as many DADS in the world concerned as MOMS, regarding their pitchers arms, regardless of what position played by their son. Regardless of the players AGE, the concern never diminishes. You might not understand that.

Far out. I had no idea that there was a Sell By date on nurturing your kids. Or that it was Mom's job, as opposed to Dad's.

(Oh, wait, that would go a long way toward explainging the events of last May for me, eh TPM? )

A 23 yr old senior at Manhattan-- I dont think so--not that kind of school--would be very rare

TPM,

I’m one of those Dads and I think you know where I stand on this subject. Ignorance is not a defense.

“You do not know what you do not know…”

TPM says:

quote:

just as many DADS in the world concerned as MOMS ... Regardless of the players AGE, the concern never diminishes. You might not understand that.

I noted your view as a "MOM" because you are a MOM, duh (Tiger ... Paw ... MOM)
not to diminish a mom's view or pit it against a dad's


Orlando says:

quote:

Far out. I had no idea that there was a Sell By date on nurturing your kids

hmm, no gender on a geographical location? (Orlando) ... ya got me
but I'm guessing a mom as well


a quick review for those who forgot how it works


Moms DO nuture & protect FOREVER
youngsters listen politly, then do as they please until you FORCE otherwise
teenagers don't listen at all, they already know it all, & it's anyones guess what they'll do
grown-ups listen politely to their parents, then do as THEY think best ...

it's pretty simple really, it's been that way for centuries

Couple things from someone who doesnt know anything..

155 pitches is too many, period.. It says to me is the kid was behind a boatload of hitters or 3-2 on everyone, he was lucky to be that far into the game to start with. Especially a team like that.
Tells me he is a tough kid though, I was similar, and I was worked on four times.
Was the bullpen on the trip? To me it wasnt pulling him in the last trip to the mound, by that time it might have been his game, the move should have come earlier. He did his job, and well, now its time to give it to a teammate.

.

Got me thinking....priorities...In order...(sort of the Gayle Sayers thing)

1. Your choice: God, Universe, RA, Buddah(karma?)...
2. Health and Welfare of Humanity
3. Health and Welfare of Players and family
3. Health and Welfare of Team
4. Health and Welfare of Self

44

Here are the thoughts as I am coaching pitchers. (Not that there right, just my thoughts.) Pitch counts as well as observing mechanics are what determine when to take a guy out. Not pitch counts alone. That said, I had better never go to the mound and have a pitcher want to come out of the game. Especially when he is throwing well. It is my job to make that tough decision. I have to keep in mind that if this is my best guy and he is capable of pitching like this against good teams, we are going to need him. Some say leave him in because it is the chance of a lifetime. Think about this...he is obviously, from what I am hearing, a good pitcher. If he throws 155 pitches and gets the win, am I now justified in taking him out in his next start after 110 pitches if he has a no-hitter going? Or do I say "now THIS is a once and a lifetime chance" and let him throw 155 pitches again? If you are in college, you have a pitching staff, let them do their jobs too.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Chairman,

Being a concerned parent regarding the player, whether being a MOM or DAD, I asked a question, which no one seems to have answered.
There are just as many DADS in the world concerned as MOMS, regarding their pitchers arms, regardless of what position played by their son. Regardless of the players AGE, the concern never diminishes. You might not understand that.

TPM I'm with you on this and in case chairman is not sure I am a Dad, duh (Novice DAD).

I don't think it means as a Parent or MOM you are being overly protective, but as a Pitcher's MOM you are aware of the physical limitations and also a Pitcher never wanted to come out of the game. There are more and more TJ surgeries and critics can say all they want about let them do it, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity etc... I feel fairly confident that I know one way that will make the likelyhood of it being a once in lifetime event...pthrow 155 pitches in a ball game.

Saw where the boy has only thrown 2 innings in relief since that game as of this past weekend

thanks for the update, that's awesome

I'll offer my congrats along with TR's(?) ... the kid must still be pumped

AND it seems the team believes in him as well ...
he comes in a tie game, faces the minimum, his "O" scores 3 runs for him
& he and the team both go home with a "W"

I'll second that "moxie" award

Just an update and to answer a few.

TPM, I agree with you, Mom or dad we are all concerned. The players father is a tremendous man who raised 2 boys on his own from the time Chris was 10. (Mom passed away). Dad was concerned during the game but trusted his son to know his body.

TR, didn't think it would be you but low and behold. After the game there were a few poster's who PM'd me about when Chris would pitch again. One in particular was going to be at UMBC on a visit and was hoping to see Chris pitch. I was told (By Coach Leighton) and relayed the message to our poster's that Chris would only see 2 innings on the weekend and not because of the past weekends events but due to the fact Manhattan is playing Miami on Wednesday and Chris will pitch that game.. He threw his regualr weekday bullpens and would do the same over the weekend as a tune-up for Miami.

Rather then state "Saw where the boy has only thrown 2 innings in relief since that game as of this past weekend". Anyone can read through your implications. Unless I'm reading you completely wrong.

How about (glass half full) "saw Chris got his 2nd win of the season, and now has 11 straight shutout innings. He pitched 2 innings, 6 batters to get the win in relief". CONGRATULATIONS CHRIS and good luck vs Miami on Wednesday

Coach

Just thought it odd that he did not start the next series a week later

I like to keep pitchers on a rotation so they are set when you get into League play you are ready


As for reading me-- what does that have to with anything--people on the internet read what they want into any post.

All that matters is that the boys arm is ok and only time will tell

Very interesting, if you visit Boyd Nation on pitchers abuse points, this young man has pitched quite a bit of games over 120, 8 total from last year.
I wish him the best, but I still stand on the premise if this player wants a future after college in baseball, it might not happen.
Another interesting point, if you follow the years, you will see a significant decline in innings pitched after 120 for most schools. Seems to me, coaches are recognizing that there is a possibility that this is not a good thing.

Not to beat a dead horse, but this isn't an isolated incident:

"Chicago State pitcher Jonathan Kohn pitched an eight-inning complete game, allowing six earned runs, 11 hits, five walks and three strikeouts. Kohn threw 137 pitches against Notre Dame after a 161-pitch outing in 7 1-3 innings against Kansas State March 28."

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaabb/news?slug=uwire-coopersd...prov=uwire&type=lgns

Another one, with no publicity:

Opening day of HS ball, Junior throwing against a good lefty headed to a Patriot League school next year...Jr get's 8Ks, 0 BB but loses in the 7th. Lefty throws 40 pitches [not a misprint] in the 6th inning alone, before they pulled him, ending up with 135 [this is the 2nd week of March, mind you, in the Philly area - not exactly balmy.

Got to believe that Patriot coach would go nuts if he knew.

Side note: kid they brought in to relief, got a popup for the 3rd out in the 6th, struck out the side in the 7th - not sure what coach was waiting for!!

Today, Chicago State University pitcher Colin Marshall Pitched 10 1/3 innings after Jonathan Kohn pitched 9 1/3 the day before in their conference series @ Valparaiso University. I can't imagine those pitch counts. Must not have too much of a bullpen!!!!

Last weekend the ace from University of Washington, who throws 100 mph and has been mentioned as the first pick in this year's draft, threw 146 pitches in their win over Oregon State.

My Oregon State? Say it ain't so Rob!

Got one better for you all---last week a HS pitcher was leading in his game something like 8-0 and was removed from the game--smart move you say--I agree but--in the 7th inning the relief arms had allowed the leads to dwindle to 8-5--what does the coach do--HE BRINGS THE STARTER BACK IN TO SAVE THE GAME !!!


DUH !!!!!!!!

HIGH SCHOOL pitcher in our area goes 9 innings, strikes out 21, and throws 142 pitches!!!!

UPDATE:
From the ORIGINAL post. Just for kicks checked out the team's web site. The player TR referred to in the first post is 9-2 with 7 complete games. Will be interesting to see how the young man comes back NEXT year.

You're right JT...TR, please keep us posted.

Haven't posted in a good year maybe two,so here is my two cents.
I feel 155 pitches is too many, though not uncommon. More than likely this team has very little confidence in their bullpen. The pitcher in question had to be deep into each count or a ton of foul balls to get to 155 pitches.
Something else to take into consideration, this young man threw warm up pitches the whole game that is another 45-72 pitches add that in with pick off's and maybe fielding your looking at 200+.Was this game really that important? I wouldn't think so. Reading some info here this Pitcher has seven complete games,wonder what those pitch counts were . Seven complete games throws out the "once in a life time" theory.In addition, it is the coaches job to pull the pitcher not the pitchers job to pull himself. No competetive pitcher is going to tell the coach to pull him out.It wasn't like he had a no no going. Sounds like the young man is a heck of a pitcher hopefully the coach will save some for his future.If he's not tired he will be.

I can say my kid threw 9 innings last week (101 pitches) , and the kid who pitched for the other team threw 9 innings also (67 pitches), I almost felt bad when he(opposing pitcher) lost..almost.

quote:

Originally posted by Chairman:
hmm, I wonder if that was Mrs Bee> posting/helping earlier in the thread ...
other than the thumbs up

why do I wonder?

as more blanks are filled in with legit info there seems to have been some "very good intuition"
at work forming opinion that though unpopular, is now looking better every minute

Chairman,
Hate to bring up this post again, but,
do you know Mrs. Bee>?

Thanks for filling in the blanks for some of us.