Outfield speed vs. making the play

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
What we like to do is have three centerfielders and we deploy them in all three outfield positions---the determination is based on arm strength, speed, where the player feels more comfortable and how we feel they can help us--gain this past fall we had all three positions filled by players with better than 7.0 speed

TR,
That's great for defense but what about offense. Are all three of those guys great hitters with power? Where do you put the good hitting power guy if you have one already at 1B? IMO you need some power out of your outfield.

I think you have to figure in hitting and hitting for power when determining at least one OF position.

Much of the debate really depends on what level the player is at. I had a conversation with BBScout a few years ago. My example was an OF with great arm/instincts/bat, but not speed vs the exact opposite. If you have a HS player that has all these tools, including the ability to read the ball along with a 6.7, a college probably won't be seeing the young man anyway! MOST players have certain attributes one way or another, but I still say speed is a VERY important factor. It alone doesn't make a great player though.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
What we like to do is have three centerfielders and we deploy them in all three outfield positions---the determination is based on arm strength, speed, where the player feels more comfortable and how we feel they can help us--gain this past fall we had all three positions filled by players with better than 7.0 speed

TR,
That's great for defense but what about offense. Are all three of those guys great hitters with power? Where do you put the good hitting power guy if you have one already at 1B? IMO you need some power out of your outfield.

I think you have to figure in hitting and hitting for power when determining at least one OF position.

No offense but why? If all three are around .300 hitters and the IF has some good average guys then you are going to score runs.

fillssfan


Two of the three had home run power---our big bat was our first sacker--basically we were a speed team with excellent defense and great pitching

So let me just post this here and hopefully I will get some feedback.

Zack is a freshman, 6'1, 195lbs. Above average hitter, average speed, cannon arm, and phenomenal instincts in the outfield.

What will it take to get looked at hard from a 60 yard time, and mph from the OF?

quote:

Originally posted by ZacksDad:
So let me just post this here and hopefully I will get some feedback.

Zack is a freshman, 6'1, 195lbs. Above average hitter, average speed, cannon arm, and phenomenal instincts in the outfield.

What will it take to get looked at hard from a 60 yard time, and mph from the OF?

His 60 time won't matter unless he becomes an excellent high school varsity/18U hitter.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by ZacksDad:
So let me just post this here and hopefully I will get some feedback.

Zack is a freshman, 6'1, 195lbs. Above average hitter, average speed, cannon arm, and phenomenal instincts in the outfield.

What will it take to get looked at hard from a 60 yard time, and mph from the OF?

His 60 time won't matter unless he becomes an excellent high school varsity/18U hitter.

What do you want me to do, say he hung the moon LOL. What would you consider an "excellent" hitter to be?

Am I correct thinking he will need to run 6.6ish and throw 95 from the outfield?

There is no certain combination of tools that you have to have to be a successful team or an individual. ZacksDad, Championship major league teams such as the Cardinals of the 1980's won with very little power in the outfield and the early 70's version of the Big Red Machine had its power at catcher, 3b, and 1b, not in the outfield. You can't just lock in on an exact speed, arm velocity, or power potential to tell who will make it. I do feel there are minimum speed requirements for the outfield as a player moves up in level. I don't think you will see many major leaguers with 8.0 60yd. speed in the outfield unless he is absolutely King Kong with a bat. Even then they'll be looking to move him to 1st base or DH at the first oportunity.

quote:

What would you consider an "excellent" hitter to be?

In high school it's the hitter everyone stops to watch in BP and doesn't head for the concession during the game for fear of missing his AB (actually applies to any level). To be a college prospect if he's a centerfielder he'll have to be able to run. If he's a corner outfielder he'll have to hit for power.

Guys putting on a "show" in BP mean nothing to me---can they put on a "show" in a game by getting important hits and positive outs

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Guys putting on a "show" in BP mean nothing to me---can they put on a "show" in a game by getting important hits and positive outs

.... and doesn't head for the concession during the game for fear of missing his AB.

I'm looking at this not just from a hitting standpoint, but a mechanics standpoint. I can watch a kid bash the ball in BP and think, "Easy out in a game. Just pitch him (here)."

quote:

can they put on a "show" in a game by getting important hits and positive outs

That describes my son as a high school hiter.

In 52 AB over the 20 game hs season, he had only 5 K's. 2 of those K's he reached base and scored twice. The K's were productive.

In their first win of the season he went 2-3 and drove in the GWRBI.

As for productive outs, he had a knack for it. One game he went 0-4 with 3 RBI. 2 of the RBI's gave the team the lead. They eventually lost that game in extra innings.

In one game he didn't start, he came in as a PH in the last inning off the bench as a trailing by 1 and with 2 outs, he tied the game with a line drive base hit to centerfield. A couple of batters later, he scored the winning run.

In the opening round of the county playoffs he knocked in 3 runs with 4 hits. He drove in the first run of the game. We won by 3 runs.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
What we like to do is have three centerfielders and we deploy them in all three outfield positions---the determination is based on arm strength, speed, where the player feels more comfortable and how we feel they can help us--gain this past fall we had all three positions filled by players with better than 7.0 speed

TR,
That's great for defense but what about offense. Are all three of those guys great hitters with power? Where do you put the good hitting power guy if you have one already at 1B? IMO you need some power out of your outfield.

I think you have to figure in hitting and hitting for power when determining at least one OF position.

No offense but why? If all three are around .300 hitters and the IF has some good average guys then you are going to score runs.

coach2709,
Doesn't every team in baseball need a balance of speed, average and power. If you base all your outfield guys on speed you would probably miss out on power. What would you do with a Manny, Pat Burrel, Adam Dunn, Matt Holiday, etc....

We are talking HS here not PROS

I would think in high school baseball, outfield power isn't necessarily a must as long as the players are strong, can cover ground, throw, can hit and hit the ball hard. A typical high school roster may have one or two players who can go deep and you don't see tons of home runs at the high school level and you're not gonna get enough home run power at the power positions on the high school level compared to the pros.

I still don't agree.
Suppose one of your best hitters is a power hitter on your HS team. Do you leave him on the bench because a faster kid can track down the one ball the other kid can't get to. If the power kid is dead slow that's one thing, but if he has decent speed and can track balls well he should be in the game.

Also, if we are sticking to HS teams, how many have 3 sub 7.0 second kids playing the outfield that could possibly make a difference over a kid with power who can change a game with one swing? They do exist in HS.

The pros I mentioned were once HS guys. Did they only DH or not play in HS?

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I still don't agree.
Suppose one of your best hitters is a power hitter on your HS team. Do you leave him on the bench because a faster kid can track down the one ball the other kid can't get to. If the power kid is dead slow that's one thing, but if he has decent speed and can track balls well he should be in the game.

Also, if we are sticking to HS teams, how many have 3 sub 7.0 second kids playing the outfield that could possibly make a difference over a kid with power who can change a game with one swing? They do exist in HS.

The pros I mentioned were once HS guys. Did they only DH or not play in HS?

Look I understand where you are coming from but in HS you can't always have the mixture of speed, power and average. It still isn't a sure bet to have the power guy over the speed guy. You have to decide if the runs he scores are worth the runs he will give up by not covering the whole field.

Also, this is a point I made about a month or two ago in a similar thread, I'm not going to put a speed guy out there who can't hit at all over a kid who can hit but is a little slower. I'm going to put the best OVERALL player out there. Some of my best teams rarely had homerun hitters - they were solid pitching and outstanding defense. With this combo you will at least give your team a chance to win.

Plus using the MLB players isn't the best example because they are the exception and not the rule. They are very rare players a coach gets to see in his career. Most coaches will get to see the standard HS kid who might be good but they are done after HS.

But if you want to use MLB players as a comparison would you take Pat Burrell or Adam Dunn over an Ichiro? Now you got to decide if the runs they are responsible for scoring will outweigh the number of runs they give up by not covering the OF.

Coach, my point is not choosing an Ichiro over a Burrel or Dunn. It is choosing two Ichiro's over one Ichiro and one Burrell. I think I would choose one of each.

Just in the interest of fun...

I would definitely choose the two Ichiro's!

That would give my team about 450 hits and 80 stolen bases and score about 230 runs out of two spots in the line up. Also I would have one of the best centerfielders and one of the best rightfielders in the game that could cover all the ground and with the strongest arms.

If someone picks Ichiro over Burrel or Dunn once, why would they change their mind the second time?

Now I can understand why someone might take one of each if the two choices were Pujols and Ichiro. Also can see why someone would want two Ichiro's and also a Dunn. What if their were three Ichiro's?

Unfortunately, there is only one Ichiro.

A friend always tells me...if you can hit...you WILL play...somewhere. I can be reasonably assured...if it a choice between two players...one who can rake...and the other who can run them down in the OF...but an average or below stick...the hitter will win out. The days of Mark Belanger (a SS example), are over.

PG,
I would definitely take two Ichiros and one top notch power hitter over 3 Ichiros. Ichiro isn't going to hit too many inside the park HR when a HR is needed.

And you can't guarantee your homerun hitter will be up when that moment is apparant. You can't guarantee he will hit a homerun if he is up at that moment. Just like I can't guarantee my speedy guys will be up or that they can string a couple of base hits together.

You build a baseball team for the longhaul and not just one game or small group of games. Will teams that rely on power win games? Yes they will. Will teams that rely on speed win games? Yes they will. Will teams that have a mixture of speed and power win games? Yes they will. I guess what I'm saying is if I am a GM I am going to build my team on pitching and defense. I know I can win games that way because more times than not I am going to be in a position to win games.

But I am a high school coach and I am going to coach the heck out of what I get.

I would take 3 Ichiro's and tell one of them to hit the ball with power every time up (Ichiro can turn on it when he wants to). But what if you had 3 Juan Pierre's? Would you take 2 or 3 Pierre's or would you want a little more power and/or arm?

Can someone tell me, since this thread seems to have revived, what are the requirements to get looked at hard by a D1 college with regards to 60yd time and OF velocity?

I am sitting here trying to think of CF's to compare to-who would be considered "slow" by track times but their instincts and ability to read the ball more than made up for it.

I never thought Andrew Jones was fast. Is Jim Edmonds really fast?

Speaking of Ichiro, the Man has power in his bat.

The dumbest fan of all time, was at a Texas Rangers game.
Ichiros rookie year.
Ichiro hit's his first MLB homer and the fan threw the ball back onto the field??

Well Ichiro was Rookie of the year, Player of the year. and a living god in Japan.

That ball if put on Ebay in Japan would of fetched well over a million dollars for that said Fan.
Opportuinities my friends only come around once in awhile.

EH