Outfield speed vs. making the play

In college baseball every outfielder can read the fly balls. Speed determines which ones can chase them down better.

How is it then, that some players such as Adam Dunn who played left field for the Reds for years and isn't a very good defensive player, probably couldn't run the 60 in 9 seconds ,yet just signed a 20 million dollar contract to play for the Nationals? Of course they are moving him to 1B. Maybe I need a better example.

You are confusing a corner (hitting for power) position with a defensive, speed position such as center field.

Rob Kramer has it right, speed will run down more fly balls and it better be sub 7.0 speed at that, maybe 6.6 - 6.8.

Hey I can relate to the quandry, my son worked his tail off to produce a verifiable sub 7 time. His current position is a SS on a JUCO so he is always trying to keep that number down. Next goal is 6.8

raindelay

Where does it say that speed makes you a better outfielder ???

Not all excellent outfielders are burners

There are and have been many excellent outfielders who were not 6.6 speedsters

It's easier to coach reading the ball off the bat and angles to cut them off than it is to coach someone to get faster. That is why they go for speed. They would rather take a chance that they can coach a kid who is faster to become an outfielder and have that speed advantage than take the chance on the kid who is a little slower but can read it. Over the long haul the faster player will eventually be as fast as the slower player but the slower player will just become slow.

As others stated, there are plenty of examples of good outfielders who aren't burners who are still good defensive guys, but remember a second slower in the 60 is a lot of difference. The guy who runs a 6.3 is tremendously faster than a guy who runs a 7.3 and will cover much more ground probably even when he gets a slightly slower read or jump on the ball. You can sometimes teach a guy to get better reads or run more efficient routes but its hard to teach natural speed. Of course if you hit like Manny Ramirez they'll forget about the lack of speed.

I guess another question on this subject is when does the strong arm of an outfielder offset the lack of speed he may have in the outfield?

I think a strong arm and speed are two very different tools and one doesn't necessarily offset the other. J Damon of the Yankees has had to move out of centerfield to left field because his arm was so weak last year especially, although he still has the speed to play center. Average to weak arm with little speed can play left as long as you have an outstanding bat with power. Very strong arm preferred for rightfield and does not necessarily have to have great speed as long as the bat is there again preferably with power like Sosa or Alou when he was with the Astros. Centerfielder truly is often the best athlete on the team and really should have at least 6.6 speed on a D1 or pro team. Should also hit but can be more of a leadoff type guy as power does not have to be as pronounced. Must have a decent arm as throws from deep in the gaps are required. I don't know if Jim Edmonds or Andrew Jones in their prime ran quite 6.6's but they sure don't now! Both are pretty much finished as centerfielders.

Thanks 3-bagger!

Oh I almost forgot the example of Bo Jackson--world class 6.13 speed and a cannon of an arm--however ran poor routes and often outran his mistakes. He was not considered a prototype centerfielder despite his speed because of this deficiency.

It is easier for a player to learn the outfield than it is to gain speed.

Anyone recall Richie Ashburn of the Phillies --a Gold Glove CF with no speed but anything he got to he caught--_Duke Snider of the Dodgers was another one with minimal speed

TRhit, Richie Ashburn was one of the truly overlooked centerfielders of all time defensively. He had several of the highest PO totals ever accomplished with over 500 a few times. He led the league several times with a young Willie Mays as a rival and the other guy you mentioned--Duke Snider--also in his prime at that time. With the young Mick active at the same time, it was truly a golden time for centerfielders with 3 of them in NY.

TRit, I forgot one thing. Actually Ashburn did have great speed, leading the league with 32 his rookie season and stealing over 230 in his career in a time when steals were at alltime lows. It was his arm that was considered only average.

One second is equivalent to approximately 5 full strides, if those strides are 6’-7’ that would be 30 to 35 feet. All else being equal the one second faster runner has 30-35 feet more range. There’s a real reason why scouts carry those stop watches. If the ball is hit in the gap the precise route on a slow runner may not get him there. The precise route on the fast runner might get him there easily.

Both speed and playmaking ability are important. But IMHO the outfield is a unit like an Offensive Line in football. You mix speed and instincts and smarts and figure out a way to catch all the fly balls and keep all grounders to singles by using the three best hitters available. You don't necessarily put your three best fielders out there.

If you have a slow slugger in LF next to an absolute burner in CF and an average speed, great hitter with a good arm in RF, they would cover the OF. Late innings with a lead, you probably can swap out the LF slugger for the second best defensive OF on the team (backup CF?).

Of course, the optimum would be three players who run sub-6.5 who run perfect routes on every ball and can also throw and mash. But the reality is, you need to get hitters in the line up, and the outfield gets plenty of guys that can hit but not run that well.

Mike F

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I know speed is a very valuable tool in baseball. However, why is it in the eyes of scouts, coaches, etc. that if a kid can run a 60 yard dash in 7.0 seconds that makes him a better outfielder than the guy who runs a second slower yet knows how to read the fly ball and hit his cut off man by playing his position with more capabilities and more common sense. Personally, I would take a guy who could pick up the ball better than the guy overrunning the play? Just a thought, I've seen both.

Guess I was responding to the original question above. Once everything else is equal the faster runner is the more valuable player. One second difference is very large! That one second slower guy, would need to be the best hitter. Because it would be next to impossible for him to be the better centerfielder. CF being the most critical speed position among the outfielders. There are not very many slow and good defensive outfielders.

You can be the smartest player in history, but "defensively" you still have to get from point A to point B on time. Point B is the kicker!

Thanks to everyone on their input on this. PG, if I understand this right, the strongest armed outfielder with average speed usually finds himself in right field. The weaker arm and the lesser speed guy can be found in left. While your centerfield has the wheels. PG? How can you teach a kid to gain more speed? I would say out of all the talent and potential talent T-bone has , speed is probably his downfall.Agility training helped some and again he looks like a Grey Hound pup still getting his bearings at times when he is running, but he is still growing. He is definately not the slowest kid, but not your fastest either ( he is in the middle of the pack). Does this speed thing change as a kid grows more over the next couple of years or what you see now is what the kid ends up with speed wise? I know he has stolen his share of bases during game conditions on a 60/90 field, how does that translate to the outfield?

quote:

I know speed is a very valuable tool in baseball. However, why is it in the eyes of scouts, coaches, etc. that if a kid can run a 60 yard dash in 7.0 seconds that makes him a better outfielder than the guy who runs a second slower yet knows how to read the fly ball and hit his cut off man by playing his position with more capabilities and more common sense.

A friend's son, playing AA at the time went back to his D1 college program in February to play in an alumni game. He crushed three doubles up the gap. He said all three would have been caught in AA. Why? The AA outfielders are just that much faster than college outfielders.

That makes sense RJM. Thanks again.

Rain Delay,

It is possible and also likely that as your son matures he will gain some speed. My oldest as a sophomore ran a 7.5 at a PG Underclass event. He ran a 6.9 at the PG World Showcase the Fall of his Senior year.

He was intentional and I really pushed him to work on his speed. In the timed event much of it is mechanics and once you understand and practice proper mechanics and learn that the first 3 steps are the most important followed by maintaining your acceleration through the finnish.

I understand that this straight 60 time may not be the evidence of speed you are refering to, but it will be how he is measured.

There are gyms that specialize in speed training. After my son's surgery and he was released to train he attended one very respected program in Tampa Florida 2-3 times a week. They worked his lower half and core for strength and tuned his mechanics. This was very helpful and a year later he is just as fast as he was prior to his injury.

We still have an eye on 6.8.

PG had an article that was interesting...I found it here:

http://sunshinestatebaseball.c...ic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8822

Rain Delay ... I sent you a longer PM on this topic. There are two main aspects to speed: 1) genetics, and 2) form/technique. You can't coach genetics, but you can coach form and technique.

Don't underestimate the ability of an outfielder to read balls off the bat better than others, good vision, and a solid idea of the area the ball may land. Tracking ability and solid fundamental routes are vital skills. Then,

Don't underestimate athleticism and speed. These talents make the task easier and gives the outfielder the ability to compensate for any mistakes, but more important to get in the optimum throwing position, i.e, not going backwards.

Arm strength is very important, but look at the usage factors. A deep gap shot caught by an outfielder is an out. With a runner on base, he will probably advance anyway due to momentum away from the action. The arm needs to be strong enough on base hits to keep runners from advancing as much as possible.

Many corner outfielders were once centerfielders, who were once shortstops. In other words, usually the best athletes at that given time. When they get funneled up together, you have the makings of a great outfield.

I don't always agree with the scouting emphasis on raw speed because fundamentals and overall skill and athleticism are more important, especially if the burner is a banjo hitter, but......................

It's a bonus when your CF has 6.5 speed, and your corner guys 6.7 speed, and your RF has a cannon.

Players who appear to be running in quicksand, even though they can hit balls a country mile shouldn't be on Gap Patrol.

Raindelay - First, welcome to HSBBW! It's always great to see folks from my great bluegrass state!

I believe that most people would agree that my son was one of the best CFs in this area back in HS. He didn't have speed. We learned how highly speed was regarded when he moved to the next level however - college ball. He only had one school to the best of my memory, that planned on utilizing him in CF. The others planned on RF or using him as a pitcher. While other abilities can compensate for speed at the HS level, I believe most coaches and scouts feel it's more important at higher levels. I've seen some college coaches who look at speed before they even talk seriously to a player. While it's not a dealbreaker - it's VERY important in the scheme of things. The best advice I'd give a player who doesn't posses speed is to work on that part of their game and make sure they continue to HIT the ball!

Talking about reading the ball off the bat---I recall my son in a summer playoff game at the college level telling the coach don't put me in left--I will go to right and Joe will go to left---the field he was on was one where he read the ball better in Center or Right---as it turned it our he made a game saving catch in right

Don't underestimate the ability to read the ball off the bat

Remember too, that it was only a few years ago that Andrew Jones formerly of Atlanta was being talked about as one ofthe all time great defensive CF's and he was never one of the fastest guys in baseball. He had good speed but read the ball as well as anybody I've seen. Once he gained all the excess weight, his put outs decreased by 40-100 per year. This was going from solid speed to very little speed. Now of course he's forgotten how to hit as well.

Tantrough,

Thanks for the e-mail. It was very helpful..

We talk about the step up from HS to college--- the outfield speed and arm strength in college is vastly superior to HS---my guy was an awesome HS outfielder--in college he was a very good outfielder -- his arm and speed were not the tops but combined with his bat he was in the lineup as a regular BUT note this all you parents and kids out there--his first call was simply this--"Dad my 6.6 speed (he got it down to 6.4) is not the fastest in the outfield. Not even close". His arm which was a gun in HS was just average in college. But he was still a good outfielder--fortunately he had experience playing all three outfield positions before getting to college which certainly helped.

To be the outfielder who makes the plays it takes a combination of all aspects of the position--speed, arm, knowing the hitters, reading the ball, positioning, knowing where to throw the ball.

In actuality playing the outfield may be one of the toughest positions on the field.

Its funny. Zack is experiencing the same thing this year. He has played CF for probably the past 6 years and now he is in high school and has been moved to right (yes he has a cannon).

The current cf'r is mediocre at best but is there only because he is "fast". I just don't understand it.

And for the arguement that you can teach outfield skills easier than speed-I feel like it is totally the opposite. In addition, very few players have ever been fast enough to outrun the ball. Bo Jackson being one.

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And for the arguement that you can teach outfield skills easier than speed-I feel like it is totally the opposite. In addition, very few players have ever been fast enough to outrun the ball. Bo Jackson being one.

Could be. My son was a rightfielder on the hs varsity who could track balls down faster than anybody I've seen at the high school level . He had above average speed but not the speed of the centerfielder he played with.

He made difficult plays look routine. Balls that looked like were sailing way over his head that he was getting nowhere near, all of a sudden he's coasing under the ball making it look easy.

You can't teach instincts like that.

He was the #2 centerfielder when the regular moved out of position.

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Originally posted by ZacksDad:
In addition, very few players have ever been fast enough to outrun the ball. Bo Jackson being one.

Bo Jackson was a football player.

His baseball career included 694 games with 104 at DH. The balance of the games in the outfield, 415 were played in left field, 63 in right field, and only 88 in centerfield.

He had a career .962 fielding percentage and .250 batting average?

Kenny Lofton was a CF!

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Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

And for the arguement that you can teach outfield skills easier than speed-I feel like it is totally the opposite. In addition, very few players have ever been fast enough to outrun the ball. Bo Jackson being one.

Could be. My son was a rightfielder on the hs varsity who could track balls down faster than anybody I've seen at the high school level . He had above average speed but not the speed of the centerfielder he played with.

He made difficult plays look routine. Balls that looked like were sailing way over his head that he was getting nowhere near, all of a sudden he's coasing under the ball making it look easy.

You can't teach instincts like that.

He was the #2 centerfielder when the regular moved out of position.

I couldn't agree more.

Once again you can teach/train speed a lot easier than instincts and reading a ball off the bat.

It's funny when someone hits a "bomb" and Zack is in the outfield I just quietly think to myself, that's going to be an out LOL.

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Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:

quote:

Originally posted by ZacksDad:
In addition, very few players have ever been fast enough to outrun the ball. Bo Jackson being one.

Bo Jackson was a football player.

His baseball career included 694 games with 104 at DH. The balance of the games in the outfield, 415 were played in left field, 63 in right field, and only 88 in centerfield.

He had a career .962 fielding percentage and .250 batting average?

Kenny Lofton was a CF!

What's your point?

Mine was all the talk about speed-and while it is important I personally think instints and ability to read the ball and run the best line to it is more important.

And the point about Bo Jackson is he is one of a very selct players I have ever seen that was actually fast enough to compensate for being a below average OF'r.

I'll tell you guys what - give me the fast kid and you guys can take the not as fast kid but reads the ball well and let's coach them up. I think my chances of having the outfielder with the biggest upside are greater than yours.

It's nice to have kids who can read the ball automatically off the bat but you can only teach speed to a certain level. At some point you won't get any faster but you can teach a kid to read it off the bat.

What we like to do is have three centerfielders and we deploy them in all three outfield positions---the determination is based on arm strength, speed, where the player feels more comfortable and how we feel they can help us--gain this past fall we had all three positions filled by players with better than 7.0 speed

The point is simple. Bo Jackson mostly played corner outfield, struck out 1/3 of the time(Shunto), and was a football player

Bo Jackson did do a few amazing things during his short baseball career. Obviously he had amazing tools.

Bo came up with the Royals who had Willie Wilson in CF. Wilson was considered one of the best CF’s in the game when Jackson came up.
By 1990 Bo started more games in CF than Wilson.

Bo was a football player, but he was also the MVP of the 1989 MLB All Star Game. Hard to think anyone capable of doing that wasn’t a baseball player. The question is how good he would have been had he not also been a Pro Football all star at the same time.

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The question is how good he would have been had he not also been a Pro Football all star at the same time.

I look at Jackson from the other side. I wonder how far he would have buried the NFL stats for yardage, TD's, etc. had he been focused on football. Showing up some time in October with no preseason, he holds the record for most runs over 80 yards.

That too!