outfielding errors or hits

Good questions, dador92 -- because those things DO happen. Welcome to the board! Let's go to the rulebook.

1 & 2 would be errors.
OBR 10.12(a)(1) Comment:
"...The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. ..."

3. Single and an error on the throw.
OBR 10.12 (a)
"The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder ... whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) ... permits a runner to advance one or more bases."

4. Double.
OBR 10.12(a)(1) Comment:
"Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error." --also-- "The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise."

So while the book says to score it as a double, it sounds like this was more of a case of your basic 1B BF (single with a brain f@rt).

I understand what you are saying RPD, but I think I would score 1 & 2 differently.

1. I would score this a double, unless the fielder recovered and was able to make the play, but didn't. I would consider his initial move forward a mental mistake, not a physical (or mechanical) one. As you state for scenario 4, mental mistakes cannot be considered errors.

2. I would call this one a single, then an error allowing the runner to advance to 2nd. Once again, I think the decision to stay back is a mental one, not a physical one. Allowing the ball to get past him is a physical error and that is what allowed the runner to advance to 2nd.

I agree with you on both 3 & 4.

I agree with Bbman on his assessment. The first two are all mental errors or misjudgments and as a scorekeeper you can’t assume positioning “would-of-could-of-should-of” in outfield play. Same thing happens on routes all of the time, a kid will take a banana route and the ball goes over his head, you can’t score it as an error just because he took a bad route. For me at least, outfield play is one area that I have the most difficult time scoring great questions. It particularly drives me nuts when my son is pitching...

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
It particularly drives me nuts when my son is pitching...

Amen to that. Can't tell you how many times I've had to score a hit because of a misplayed ball when my son is pitching. Not easy to stomach sometimes.

Great insights, thanks guys.

Great discussion. All good thoughts ... but here's the thing about mental errors. You don't always get a free pass. There's a little more to it that I didn't quote previously:

10.12(a)(1) comment:
"A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay ... shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error."

And that's kinda what happened here. A mental mistake that led to a physical misplay. "Ball hits ground in front of CF and gets by him cleanly (no unusual hop)." and "Ball goes over CF head"

Admittedly, this is a little in the grey area; but to me, the black and white part is that if a fielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground, and as the scorer you think that an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught the ball, then it's got to be an E. If you've got some doubt about the ordinary effort thing, then don't score the E. But the OP stated in both 1 & 2 that ordinary effort would have resulted in the ball being caught.

This is a tough one to apply to younger kids. It gets a little easier as they get older.

But -- this board is all about discussion. So feel free to continue if you disagree. With MLB right around the corner, these discussions help get the blood flowin'.

Thanks, everyone.

I see 10.12 meaning that if a player makes a mental mistake, such as misjudging a flyball, then recovers in time to try to make a play on it, but makes a physical mistake, then it is an error. If the fielder makes a mental mistake that does not even give him an opportunity to make a play on a ball, then it is unfortunate, but not an error. At least that's how I see it.

I think this situation can be related to a situation where there is a bunt, 1st baseman makes a play on the ball, but the 2nd baseman does not cover 1st. This is a mental error on the part of the 2nd baseman, but HAS to be scored a hit. If the 2nd baseman did not make the mental error of not covering the bag, the play clearly would have been made, but you cannot count that as an error since it wasn't a physical misplay. I think there is even an example like that in the rule book.

Correct me if I'm wrong again.

Again I am with you Bbman. Mental mistakes are very difficult to apply as a scorekeeper, particularly in the OF play. You are not out there and don’t have a very good perspective the player has of the ball, and whether the Ofer got a good read on it. I put more “hits” down for balls “misplayed” (IMO) in the OF than anywhere else on the field. I also believe that better Ofers have more “book errors” than those who are poor at judging balls, or take bad routes, as they never give themselves a chance to get to the ball. It is just one of the quirks in the way game scores are kept. Same thing for dropped balls in foul territory, you wish you could call them an error, because that’s what they are, just not in the way the game is scored.

These have been great discussions. I don't want to prolong them for the sake of prolonging ... so two quick points.

bballman: You're indeed right that that book cites some examples similar to your infield example. When you stated "if a player makes a mental mistake, such as misjudging a flyball, then recovers in time to try to make a play on it, but makes a physical mistake, then it is an error." -- isn't that really what happened in scenario 2? Probably depends on what criteria you use to judge a "physical mistake".

BOF: While I agree that mental mistakes are tough to apply, when you state at the end, "Same thing for dropped balls in foul territory, you wish you could call them an error, because that’s what they are, just not in the way the game is scored." -- I have to respectfully disagree with you on that one.

That one is indeed an error.

10.12(a)The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(2) when such fielder muffs a foul fly to prolong the time at bat of a batter,
whether the batter subsequently reaches first base or is put out.

The fact that he's in foul territory doesn't affect the situation (unless with a runner at 3rd the outfielder purposely lets it drop to prevent the runner from tagging up and scoring.)

RPD, you are right with the foul ball situation. Although, I always thought that if the batter wound up getting on base, it was an error. If batter made an out, no error. Guess I'm wrong on that part.

In scenario 2, I still think it was a mental mistake that prohibited him from catching the ball, but it was a physical error that allowed the ball to get past him. I still say single, error allows the runner to get to second.

Gotcha. Let's play ball!!

I'm glad I found this forum, it's nice to have other scorekeepers to discuss these situations with. Don't you just love the parents in the stands that look at you on every questionable thing in a game and ask, "was that a hit?" "was that an error?" Of course it's a thankless job, you can never keep everyone happy!

My opinion on the situations above is with the others.
1. double
2 and 3. single, advance on error.
On 1 and 2, give batter benefit of the doubt on the hit, fielder should have kept the ball from getting by them allowing an extra base.
4. Double

I'm late to the party, sorry I've been really busy this past week with our spring break tournament.

1.) Double - actually had this play in left field which scored the only run in a 1-0 final. I wanted to score the error, but simply couldn't. Ball was hit really well.

2.) Had to be there. Either single & error or double. There was one of these with my son pitching in the state playoffs. He comes in to relieve with bases loaded. First pitch is line drive to center, who charges hard, dives, comes up short, ball bounces over him and rolls all the way to the 425' fence, scoring all four runs. Dad scored single and error. Official guy scores grand slam.

3.) Single and error

4.) Double and deep sigh, "serenity now, serenity now"