Over recruiting

hr21,
First, congratulations on having the problem of multiple offers. Looking at current rosters will give you some indication but never really tells the whole story. A lot of changes will happen between now and the 07 season. Since the 05-06 team is probably not final yet, some of these players may disappear. On the other hand, transfers will occur to jump players ahead of your son. No way to predict the future. IMO, your son needs to decide where he would like to spend the next 4 years and which coaching staff seems to want him the most. Can't lose with that combination.

hr21,
42 on a top 25 team is pretty good, some of them have up to 50, especially the state schools, where tuition is more affordable and the coaches don't have to hand out big percentages. Private institutions have less on their roster,usually.

By the time season comes around, many may have left or be redshirted.

Either way, do know that this is common.

I don't really understand why coaches come out with rosters before the season begins. Lots will change between now and the new semester and next year. Between drafted players, transfers out, in, redshirt, graduates, next year could be lower or higher.

Listen to RHP, go where he feels most wanted.

While I'm a little suprised a guarantee of being on the travel team was mentioned...perhaps a "projection" on his part...typically only 25 players travel with a college team. Therefore, the coach is projecting that your son will be in that mix. 25 is about the number of players who will see game action. I'd take it as a good sign.

What I have noticed about most of the top 25 teams rosters is as follows:
1. They start with around 45-50 players
2. After the XMAS holidays the roster will be around 35 players. Most will quit baseball or transfer to another school.
3. You will end the season with around 30-35 players. A few will quit the team during the season or have a major injury, grade problems, home sick, etc...

Justbaseball,
I am not sure, will have to ask,but doesn't the 25 man travel squad refer to conference only?
Also, I think, not sure more than 25 can travel but only 25 can dress out. I do believe that at son's school everyone travels to a game that is close by.
So if a coach says you could be on the travel team, it may just mean travel?

kudos for doing your roster homework

42 sounds high to me too,
the 8 freshman IFs would'a caught my eye also, add upperclass IFs and a few more from your son's class & you could start a traffic jam

but "walk-on tryout" players wouldn't show on the roster yet, as they haven't made the team

also wondering aloud if the 8 incoming IFs got the same promise as you

Certainly, the coach is making a projection, but I really believe he is trying to say that you will be in a good position on the traveling team.

Here is another way to think about it.

Not making the travel team.

In the spring, when 25 make the traveling squad, 5 to 10 stay home and watch their teammates on TV.

Mostly, pitchers, but have seem some really dejected position players, too.

Making the traveling squad can also be incentive after a bad week and you don't make the traveling squad you work a little harder next week.

The competition for your spot does not stop, once you "make" the team.

Of the players that make the team, there are still multiple players at your spot.

You let up, the other one plays.

I don't think 42 is too many.

About 50, at my son's school, mostly pitchers, getting a shot..................

...for books, a chance to compete, and play.

And for those attempting to make the roster, to at least see your name there, is a big deal, in my opinion.

I guess a good thing about only 11.7 scholarships is that you have an early indication of how the coach regards a player.

Outboarding academic money, which you probably won't know about for other team members anyway, coaches "show the love" through the way they divide those precious scholarships.

All things being equal (which they aren't), every member that dresses gets 46%

Conventional wisdom tells us it goes to pitchers first, then up the middle. If your player has a third or more, the program is making a significant investment in him and you can be as comfortable as possible that he will be given a chance ---- moreso than the general hordes of players on their current roster.

"Given a chance" & "playing time earned" are coaching truisms. The offer made is a tangible indication of the regard in which he is held.

Stats will also tell you if freshmen are given a chance to play beyond preseason. Even with such an investment, that coach may make it a practice to 'season' the players before significant significant PT is earned. Your player needs to consider how he would deal with that situation as well.

TPM - Yeah, out here more than 25 travel to "local" games out of conference. The 25 is for conference play and some longer trips out of conference.

A good point made up above...the "travel" team does not stay fixed. You perform, you stay on it...you don't, you may not. Can change from week-to-week...thats one reason I would be suprised if a coach guaranteed a spot on the travel squad. Its gotta be a projection.

I would let your son pick his school and baseball program based on his instincts after his visits ...and of course your budget. If he really likes the place, feels the coach is being straight with him, and wants to sign, then go for it.

IMHO there isn't any way to protect your son from the inevitable obstacles that will come his way in any program. You can do all the research in the world and still not guarantee a "perfect situation" ...because there isn't one. Your son will have to compete for play time, face disappointments, and overcome many obstacles no matter where he goes. Overthinking the "what ifs" can drain the confidence out of anyone...especially an 18 year old.

After his visits, sit down and make a list of the pros and cons for each school. Then allow him to make the selection based on his gut. It's the first step in HIS investment towards success.

PS. It's been our experience that many D1 schools have 40-50 on their fall rosters. Our youngest son's currently has 47.

WOW,
so . . . I'll just say it
schools with more than about 33 on their fall roster "ARE SCHOOLS THAT OVER-RECRUIT"

it's pure & simple!

by definition - - if extra guys are gone in the spring - the program has . . . OVER-RECRUITED

pretty basic -

In the writeup on the Marist web site about their new head coach, it says he signed 25 players for 2006 at his prior school, University of New orleans.

That to me is over recruiting, any way you slice it.

Walk-ons trying out is one thing, but if a coach has 20 returning players, and signs 15-20 more, that's over-recruiting. I hear the excuse that some may be drafted so they have to stock up, but that doesn't quite cut it for me.

I disagree with one of the earlier posters about "being on the roster". While for a very small number of players, they'll be happy just to be on the roster, overwhelmingly, players want to play, not watch, and when a guy is doing the same work the guys are doing that actually play, that "being on the roster" thrill wears off real quickly.

It is absolutely correct that one must earn his spot, and keep on earning it.

I'm sure there are "Rudy"'s in college baseball, but can't imagine there are many.

When a coach promises you a spot on the travel roster without your being on campus in the fall and starting the season and seeing you play at their level, it means only one thing:

That the coach has his mind made up and he is protecting his scholarship player, even if that scholarship player is not as good on the field as someone else with less money or no money.

This is an example of a common experience for many parents and one of the many flaws of the recruiting process and the coaching process.

Very few coaches like to admit that they made a recruiting mistake; and, of course, they can't for at least one year.

Happened to my older son at an SEC school and the kid that he beat out, transferred after his sophomore year.

You have to take into consideration of these recruits, some do not fit into that school or are not as developed as a coach thinks. I do kind of agree about over- recruiting but 35 is a very acceptable number! Now when you get some people that have 80 kids on there fall roster there is and should be one heck of a problem! But really 35 is quite normal. Anyone know of any teams with 80 players?

As far as travel rosters, I am thinking lots has to do with schedules. With a 5 game a week schedule (56 season regular), the 32 on the actual playing roster was not enough after a few forced double headers and using up pitching. Some of the players/pitchers who were not regular starters switched on travel weekends, just to catch up on schoolwork and get a break. The 25 man is always changing. Roles are always changing. A successful program cannot survive with just a 25 man roster.

Maybe good idea to check out the actual schedule when considering if the roster is too large.

One more thought...
After looking over archived news articles on our son's D1 web site I noticed that they signed 19 players last November, but only 10 of those 19 actually showed up this fall.

TxMom,
To what do you attribute the difference? ML Draft? Admissions problems?

I'm sure it's a combination of things. I know they lost several to the draft and would guess the rest either decided to go to a JUCO, were academically ineligible, or had an injury. There may be other reasons, too, but these are the most common in our experience.

WE had over 33 players when we started fall ball my second year of school. Within 4 weeks 3 players had quit and by the winter 2 or 3 players were ineligible and another kid who played hockey decided he couldnt do two sports.

That was 6 or 7 players gone before the season even started

And there were several other players on the team that realistically were not going to see any playing time.

My position is that we should all (parents, coaches, players) require honesty in all our dealings. Coaches should not misrepresent the number of players, or the competition for the position. That said, so long as they tell us, they can have as large a roster as they want, and the recruits ca decide accordingly.

I suspect the premiere programs could get away with larger rosters, and more uncertainty as to a player's future, but in our dealings they were the most candid. I know my son would prefer to compete for a spot at a premiere program (that he has checked out enough to know the Coaches play the best players, not their favorites, the one with the bigger scholarship, etc.) than to be guaranteed a spot on a weaker program's team. I am sure others prefer the guarantee, and I guess that's just a measure of the kid's priorities, personality, etc.

The bottom line is that at some point in your baseball career, you are going to have to beat out some good competition for a spot, or be cut. You can choose to test yourself against the best now, or postpone the showdown until later, but it will happen some time.

I guess if ya go in expecting 50+ players on the roster, then it's not really an issue

however, if you show up expecting 32 and find 50, well . . . then it will be an issue

also, a 50+ roster would mean about 1/2 the instruction, defensive reps, and bp per player - right?

and the implication in many posts that -
large rosters are a way of life at Top 25 schools - - IS JUST NOT CORRECT

Bee...
With all due respect, our son is a walk on this fall and IS on the fall roster listed on their web site.

Also, I don't think it's reasonable to paint recruiting approaches with one broad stroke. Each school has it's own unique set of circumstances and what works well for one may leave another without a competitive team. Here in Texas, Baylor and Rice have to implement a completey different recruiting approach than UT or A&M. Does that mean one is better or more ethical than the other? Not neccessarily.

I guess the bigger point that I'm trying to make is that parents and recruits will NEVER know or be able to control all of the circumstances that surround a school's recruiting practices. You do need to ask questions and feel comfortable with the answers, but in the end, a player has to go with his gut and decide where he wants to invest his energy.

PS. I personally don't believe a recruit should ever eliminate a school based on presumptions made from information off a program's web site.

TxMom, first - wishing your son a great fall

we really seem to be in agreement that if it's not an issue to "the player", then it's NOT AN ISSUE. I never mentioned ethics at all - and do understand that everyone does it "their own way"

my point is this -

"baseball welcomes 47 players"
- and -
"A final roster of 30 players will be announced prior to the season-opener"

is NOT THE NORM in Top 25 programs, or DI baseball in general, as had been suggested previously (not by U TxMom)



.

Thanks for the good wishes.

I don't know what the national average is for D1 fall roster sizes, but in our region many have more than 40. (Texas, AZ State, LSU, etc.)

Tennessee has 28 on fall roster. #8 last year.
However, without doing research on all the top
25 teams I'm guessing the others probably have a "few" more. Do not believe it is a prerequisite to be a successful top 25 program.

I think some coaches just feel that is how "they" have to do it to be successful-agree
with BEE that as long as players know the situation ahead of time it shouldn't even be
an issue. Have another son at UNF and he says
there are approximately 60 out for fall practice
and tryouts and every player knows what he needs
to do to make the spring roster-no surprises.

Fall rosters shouldn't even be announced, just the new signees and transfers. It's meaningless and scares off possible recruits. JMO

Have no idea what the # is at son's school as they don't list the final roster until the spring.
When trying to find out who actually played, go to team stats, it will list all of the active players, will give you a better idea of how many actually the coach played, despite a large or small roster. It's valuable in trying to figure out how the freshman were used.

The rest of us ain't normal, TxMom.

TxMom, I sent a PM to you.

It has gotten better over the years. Probably 12 years ago, I remember an article about a player who had played in our local LL through Seniors who had been drafted in the sandwich round out of hs and who had signed with LSU. It reported that a number of the players in LSU's signing class of 42 had been drafted. Even knowing virtually nothing about the process then, I thought -- wow, was there a strike, did a bomb go off in the locker room? 42 + three other classes???

I hate to disagree with you Tiger Paw, because I think I know what you mean, but...
whether or not a posted fall roster is meaningless depends on your perspective. For us it means alot. It lets us know that the coaches are considering our son, provides information about his chances of making the team, and gives us hope. It's printed and hanging on our frig in the same spot we've hung spring rosters.

I'm sure most schools don't publish fall rosters for a wide variety of good reasons, but even when our sons were recruited scholarship athletes any info about the team in the fall was meaningful.

TxMom,
No problem, I realize your son is a walk on so that is very important to you. And I respect your comments.
As stated, it was just my opinion, not right or wrong answer.

Our son's college posted and printed a fall roster which was handed out to pro scouts. It also helped the parents (who came to fall scrimmages) to identify their sons' teammates.

Personally, if you wish to give credance to the roster, do so. If it isn't important to you, than don't give it any credance. No need to paint broad brush strokes with generalizations about whether it is good or bad ... the coaches have their reasons for publishing or not publishing, and I suspect their approach serves them well.

By the way, TxMom, sending good thoughts your way that your youngest son will enjoy some of the same successes that Dan has with the SF Giants (tho I am a true blue Dodger fan, at least I can enjoy ONE Giant player).

Thanks TigerPaw and FutureBack Moms.

here is a link to Collegiate Baseball's top 40 classes - if you followed these for several yrs you could spot some trends

whew! SC welcomes 23

Top 20 recruiting classes

Something to keep in mind....

When does that scholarship count against the program? I'm not sure, but I know I've read it before. Many sholarships can be offered and signed (over the 11.7) but they don't count against the program (i'm pretty sure) until the kid actaully enrolls.

An expert here please correct me if I'm wrong - and I might be.

What that means is that coaches can shop for players like a mom shops for her sons clothes (Some guys actually don't want to be bothered). She buys ten of everything knowing she'll only keep the 4 they pick and she brings the others back.

Sometimes that means schools will have to reneg on a player committment - you know the one that players aren't suppose to reneg on. But the school will, when possible, hide behind the admission policy or otherwise find some reason to lower their offer to make the scholarships fit. Sometimes this happens to existing players as well.

Think about it, who actually plans for the first round pick they sign to not actually sign with MLB? But occasionally this happens and they are left - doing the humma, humma.

But it's all good for the schools in the end.

Before signing it might be a good idea to ask the school.

"under what circumstances might our NLI not be honored?" It's an honest question and hopefully you'll get an honest answer.

mrmom and all,
Do know that by second semester by NCAA rules, roster size can be no larger than 35. If a school recruits 23 or 20 does that mean they only had 12 or 15 returning players? Does a school that recruits 8 mean they have 27 returning players? No to first and probably yes to second question. Some fall rosters now hold close to 50. What happens after the fall? I say unless you are really, really good to play at one of these schools with big recruiting numbers, you see the bench by way of redshirt or option to go JUCO for a year or just bye bye. What is a reasonable # for redshirted players? That's for you to determine. 11.7 has nothing to do with recruiting until the spring, when you have to be in regulation.
That is why I feel that fall rosters mean absolutely nothing, it's spring roster that counts in the end. Some don't agree with me, but this is the reality and parents need to either discuss what happens with the coach before a commitment is made or go where you know your chances of being cut or redshirted are less. If you are offered a pretty nice sizeable scholarship, you know how important you are in relation to playing time than to the player who is being offered just books at the same school.
Some schools take their time in really recruiting for needs, others just for bodies, hoping to find the best player amoung a large fall roster. Also sincerely feel that some schools will recruit just so that other schools can't get the player.

mrmom/TPM are correct that NCAA compliance rule may be held more strictly by some schools or confernces will differ -

Ohio State's Bob Todd on the big-10

quote:

(the) Big Ten is the only conference in the country that will not allow its coaches to go over our equivalency of scholarships in the recruiting process. Other conferences have the ability to over-extend and then be at the allowable 11.7 scholarships on the first day of classes

4 yrs ago our homework found G-Tech's usual roster to be about 32, with recruiting classes to be about 10 - with 7 to 10 of those arriving on campus - 4 yrs later it still remains the same -

Hall's new contract runs 5 more yrs to 2010 & I wouldn't expect much change

I realize that some programs do it differently, but the info for you to know what to expect going in is readily available online

Bee - I explained to someone yesterday to use that process. If you will compare the roster posted in the fall against the one in the spring - where did those missing kids go?

Then you can take that roster from the spring and compare it to the fall roster the next year. Ten kids left that weren't drafted or graduated! Where did they go? What happened? The players need to know the questions they should be asking of current players. Parents need to do their research.

lafmom,
I'm not sure you could get enough info on those situations without getting inside info -
but, if you have access inside the program just ask where they went - most players would just tell ya, if it's a coach & he starts stammering it's a red flag

actually unless there was a recent coaching change we would have scratched that school off our list

Lafmom,
You can have as many as you want on your fall roster, but you must be in compliance by spring. There are no penalties for going over in the fall, as long as the coach doesnt go over budget.
I am talking 35 on the ACTIVE roster, remember redshirts don't count against the 11.7. So a team can have 45 players if their budget allows, with no more than the required on the active.
We did the same as Bee. The limit we liked was no more than 35 max players on a team. In the end 5 were out (1 left, 1 med redshirt, 3 redshirt), leaving 30 who could actually play. That's liveable.

Bee,
Compliance is 35 max on Div1 roster, came into effect around 200-2001 I think.

Maybe our resident expert on NCAA compliance can find it!