Over recruiting

I've heard that this is also common at Cisco. Don't know about other schools.

This happens at all schools and all levels. Hopefully with the new rules starting with the 08-09 class at the D1 level and the 25% minimum scholly, this practice will be slowed down.

Again I say regardless of how many players are trying out/invited et al you still have to make the roster and prove you belong---that will never change

There are some very good threads here about that very topic. I would simply do a search for "over recruiting" and see what turns up. One from 2 1/2 years ago focused on D3 but there was some great advice given.

Over recruiting is a common problem with jr. colleges, at least out here at the bigger programs in California. Even though rosters are limited to around 35, some of the schools will recruit as many as they can from their local recruiting area, and cut or redshirt more players than they keep. Part of the motivation seems to be keeping those players away from their competition, as much as taking a look at every possible player.

Unfortunately, top performing programs tend to draw lots of kids who want to play, but never have a chance from day one, they just don't realize it. As an example, when I asked one very successful jr. college coach in our region how many players he had out for fall baseball, he said to me "We have about 90 players out, but the important thing is that we have all 35 of the guys we want here in the spring." That was said during the first week of fall baseball last year. He had 90, he knew who his 35 were the day they stepped onto the field and 55 other guys who thought they were trying out for his team were simply wasting their time and getting closer to their final playing days. All this while other area programs were looking for players or only had 30-40 players at fall baseball.

Please understand that Ca. JC's are in many ways much more competitive than many 4 year colleges. Perhaps it is the same in Texas where you are from. Most if not all these kids are determined to play baseball at the next level. It is VERY common to have 60-90 for a JC here. If the coach put some effort into getting your son out there, then the rest is up to your son. If you show up unexpectedly, then you may not have a great experience. What exactly to do you want - a starting position handed to you on a silver platter?

I mean, what have you seen in baseball so far? At showcases they are looking at a handful of players, and the rest are fillers. At high school games they are only scouting one or two players. Colleges send out many letters, but only focus on a few players for their teams. Pro scouts come to see one player, and then leave. The fact is that the pyramid gets steeper and steeper.

The only thing you can do is look at rosters, roster size, schools and leagues from which those JCs traditionally draw, and current players. Has your son played against any of the current starters? Is he from a league obviously valued by the coach? Is there a position open, or 3 players competing for his spot?

Your safety valve in Ca. is that your son can transfer much more easily out of a JC than he can from a 4 year college. I advise you to do your homework, and then follow TRhit's advice.

06catcherdad,

Is the JC in your example in Northern or Southern CA?

This is an interesting thread. Appreciate the comments. After all the years my son was offered a spot today and we are waiting the paper work and "offer" at a D1 JUCO in Texas. The coach is very honest. He will bring in 80+ players and in the spring move on with 35, if the make regionals it goes to 24. He does "red shirt' some players.

I agree with the comment - we can get them to tryout and IF they get a scholarship offer it is up to our sons to make it - or break it.

A friend of my son who pitches in AA ball said the key out of HS is to get a uniform. Once you cross that plateau work your butt off and things can happen...

I guess my question (after rambling on here) is what do you think of a red shirt position? If this is offered it does provide 3yrs of possible time at a "4" year school (it typically takes 5 to grad now right?)

Red/grey shirting is a good opportunity for players needing some development to be competivie on the field at the college level.

I just heard that there are 90 kids at a local JUCO trying out for the team. 15 or so are 2nd years, that leaves 70ish kids for 12 or so slots. WOW!

We looked at a few JUCO programs in CA - and they all said the same thing - "you will have a shot at making the team/getting a starting spot." If any one tells you you will start for them, you have to wonder. Look at it from thier position - they have no idea who is going to show up. They certainly aren't going to tell someone they can't try! Things can change really quickly - especially at a JUCO. Your son just has to be ready to go from day 1 and earn a spot - no matter where you go. We have gotten wonderful advice here - especially from Observer44 - and you just have to research, research, ressearch, then make your decision and prepare for what's next! Even the guys going to 4- year school don't have a guarantee that they will play all four years! Guys get hurt, guys quit, guys have life changing experiences.
Any ball played after high school is a very special experience! I read on here today that Sierra has 120 kids out - you have to go into it knowing that competition is stiff - especially in CA

And my question is do you realy think the coach recruited 120 ,or 90 or whatever? my bet is he recruited the 35 he wants there in the spring if they do what they need to do on the field and in the classroom,but the coach has no way of knowing how many kds are coming out. Do you guys think the coaches recruited that many?Im sure there are some D1 fallouts this season as well, everywhere.

No - I agree he didn't recruit them all - otherwise he would never have had time to coach his own team! We were told there are just kids who come out who played ball before and thought they would give it the old (junior) college try - and more power to them!

I agree with you with more power to the players who are out there giving it a shot.I am sure there are some good players in the walk ons.I also thinks its very hard to walk on a field with 80-100 guys some of who the coach has spent time getting there and getting noticed just as it is walking on at a D1. its tough.Good luck to all the boys out there trying out for spots this Fall.

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In general terms as we have seen it, and with a litle more detail than previous posts...High end JC in CA kinda works like this in the fall...(at least for the less ruthless, non-overecruiting JC's)..

There is NO baseball $...so nobody has any guarantee...the numbers are not necessarily overrecruiting but simply more supply than demand.

Fall try out's...while 70+ might look bad, it breaks down into "logical" categories...

- Half the team or so returns. Great bets to return and move up. 10-15?

- So do a handful of "redshirts" known quantities who were on the bubble the year before and have waited and worked...Good bets. 6-10?

- Then there are a number of new players who have done their homework and are smart or fortunate enough to come in as a "known quantities"...they have tried out in the spring/summer prior, or are 4 year drop downs, or have been seen, or come well reccomended, and so the coach says simply, "yes, you are of our calibre and you are a good bet to work hard and make our team". For them a calculated risk. 10-15?

- Then there are players who are known quantities, may have tried out already in the spring or summer and been told that that they are likley not at this level..."sorry young man your simply not at our level at this point"...but want to give it a last shot anyway. Bad risk, but last shot. 5-15?

- Then there are a bundle of players who come in cold...unknown...either without any contact but knowing it is a quality program, or local kids with their last shot...or many without any clue. Dreamers. 20-50?

At this point there may be 70-90-120 players. But if you have been smart, done your homework the numbers are no s bad as they look, honestly the majority are unrealistic, unprepared and have NOT done their homework. Do some make it? Yes, they do but wihtout doing any homework, for them it is a very tough numbers game. But Brod is correct, many end up elsehwere in other less competitve JC programs.

First few week(s)...cuts are made. Team gets down to roughly 50 (two teams). There once was a point where the fall practices were unregulated...teams played tons of games against other JC's. Now the game schedule is limited to a handful. As a result the program now plays intersquad games over and over and then later both squads play limited games against other JC's.

At the end of the fall, spring rosters and redshirts are chosen. Some players simply leave looking for a higher rung and more PT.

Process begins again...

44
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O44,

Thanks for the GREAT post! The process at JC's has been a mystery but no longer. I now know exactly what to expect. Thanks again.

I just talked to a friend who played 2 years at a JC and 2 years at a 4 year NCAA college. He told me what I have always heard, that both schools had at least 10 guys they cut. I asked if he considered it over recruiting and he said no. He said the coaches were doing what they had to do to field a competetive team.
We may not like it but it is a reality. He is trying out for a local college and they will cut18 players this year. Usually they cut more than that. Usually about 25.

JUCO in my area (Top 20 DI Juco nationally) does not do this.

I have absolutly no problem with bringing in extra players to compete for spots, that's life. But to bring in 40 to 50 guys to be cut, that just seems excessive. We were left under the impression that there would be 15 to 20 cut, that seems a reasonable number.

I think you might have misread O44 - there are kids that are returners, kids that the coach has recruited (who have all been told that they will have a shot at the team/playing time - no guarentees) kids who haven't been brought in(recruited) who just show up - which are the majority of that big number. The reality of it is that in my area of CA is that there are many many good ball players and the competition is very high. There is a place for everyone to play. Some programs are more competitive than others. If the kids don't know that going in, then they probably didn't do their homework, just like getting into a 4- year school.

I see the whole D1 "over-recruiting" having a serious trickle-down effect on D2 and D3...where b/c of the new roster limits and transfer rule, that you see A LOT of mid-year transfers moving to the D2, D3, or NAIA schools.

That being said, when you have schools like UNC, Tulane, and ORU hit hard by the Aug 15 signees...
BBA Blog Entry on the effect of the Aug 15 deadline

...its no small wonder the "major" programs try to hedge their bets by bringing in large numbers so that they can at least MEET the roster limit.

JT, thanks for posting that story. Unbelievable stuff that ORU is having to go through right now -- and to think that every single one of the players signed for less than $50,000!

JT that is a great read and shows the other side of the story.
You can also see where the sit rule can hurt a coach too.
BB can be a dog eat dog business. This is why I always say go where they want you and show it in terms of scholarship dollars. It may sound mercinary but it is the best insurance that you will get an opportunity to play.
This year my son has all new coaches and I can't complain about the old one. He was very good to us but the school has freed up more money for the BB program and is under taking massive changes to the ball park. They have a renewed interest in the BB program. It is a little too late for us but a welcomed change in approach. They even have a P coach that sounds like ne knows what he is talking about. I am sure there will be a fresh new crop of talented players to compete with for playing time.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
This is why I always say go where they want you and show it in terms of scholarship dollars. It may sound mercinary but it is the best insurance that you will get an opportunity to play.

One season at a time. Baseball grants can be reduced.

Yup and they also can be increased.