PARENT POWER

Suspension for a year might be a bit harsh. 2 weeks maybe more in line. Also depends on if it was on school property and other factors. Removal from team might be an option if on school property or under school supervision.

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Me?

I say..."throw the book at 'em!"






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Bobble

The point is that the rules were already in effect---the parent power for the Supt to back down and now look to revise the rules and regulations

In my book rules are rules--break them and you pay the penalty--harsh my a s s --what are teaching kids?

We just had a football player who was drunk get into a fight with the police and one officer was getting it handed to him before a second officer arrived. He was throw off the team for the season, and suspended from school. This incident took place off school property and was not a school related incident. Also in preseason two captians were arrested for drinking and the coach removed thier captainship for the year. All were seniors, I feel that correct action was taken. It is a privilege to play sports and respresent your school.

Parent Power ... yes. But it's just certain parents. Some parents can't get past the asst. principal's secretary (for a good cause)while some can get the supt. and the school board to bend over backwards (so Tommy Trophy can drink and throw the pigskin)

What are we teaching kids? We are teaching them that if you know the right people and you pull the right strings, there will be no consequences for their behavior.

I heard about a recent incident in a neighboring city where 4 college kids obtained the code to a neighborhood's community center, proceeded to get blasted on a case of beer, and were confronted by cops at 2 a.m. They fled and drove away, but one of them dropped his wallet and the cops were able to track all 4 of them down. They were charged with trespassing, public intoxication, evading arrest, minor in possession of alcohol, and DWI, but the parents of one of the boys pulled some strings and charges were dropped on all 4 of them. My concern is that these boys will not stop at dumb antics like this, but commit larger crimes in the future because there were no consequences for their bad behavior.

At schools these days, it's amazing the ruckus parents will raise when poor Johnny gets caught doing something wrong. Sadly, the ruckus oftentimes results in a reversal of disciplinary measures. And we wonder why a lot of youths seem to be headed down the wrong road.

Where are the parents? Good question. A friend recently told me that when she has trouble sleeping, she takes walks in her neighborhood and oftentimes sees middle school and high school-aged kids roaming the streets at 2, 3, and 4 a.m. Awhile back, a policeman told me that when underage kids are involved in alcohol-related accidents and the cops call the parents, the parents are oftentimes out partying themselves or are too drunk to come to the scene of the accident. A teacher told me last year that when one of her high school students was having some problems, she told the girl she needed to talk with her parents. The girl replied, "They're not available. They're in China for 2 months." The teacher asked her who she was staying with and the girl responded, "Oh, I'm at home by myself. But the housekeeper comes twice a week."

Regarding your comment, "Seems to me the inmates are running the prison," I'm sure you'll appreciate this one:

http://www.thebostonchannel.co...21085526/detail.html
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My take on this is regardless of whether the rule is too harsh or not you don't re-evaluate it at the time it's broken. As I have grown older in my coaching career I have lightened up on rules some but it was never when someone broke it. It was always at the start of the season before someone did break it.

The mistake was made when the Superintendant and / or Principal didn't review the rules in place when they took the job. That is when you change the rules and not look weak or a pushover.

Because they changed the rules because of a parent complaint they have opened the floodgates to trouble. For the life of me I have no idea how they think that is a good idea.

Regardless of what you think the rule is you back it 100% if that is what is in place or review / change it before it becomes a problem.

Preventative Maintenance is the key.

I'm all for rules, and for administering punishments for violations.

The problem that is very real is that the school systems have adopted some unbelievably overboard punishments for common offenses. The result is that for things pretty much everyone is doing, if you're the unlucky soul who gets caught, you get crucified, while all the other hypocrites escape unscathed.

And for the most part, nobody realizes just how stupid and overboard the rules are until the system tries to apply them in your own household.

What should really happen is we should be demanding that the rules make sense, in a democratic, policy-making way. The best practice would be to participate in our government and get this done in advance, but we are too lazy and thus way too vulnerable to bureaucratic excesses.

Steve Martin once joked that he had the solution for world overpopulation: apply the death penalty for parking violations. It's a joke because we all can see right away how absurd such excessive punishments are, relative to the offense involved.

Rules, yes. Punishments, yes. But when something relatively commonplace happens and you act like it's an act of premeditated murder, it is quite appropriate for parents to squawk.

P.S.

If you don't believe me, wait until your daughter gets caught with a Midol in her backpack.

Yep, tell the parent: "You know if you feel that way about our rules will you be willing to serve on a committee that will examine and write a policy? The committee will be meeting next summer to get the policy on the books for next school year. And thank you so much for your help in advance."
okay I admit that last part was a little bit sassy

Midlo-- thanks goodness I'm not in a wacky district. the other day my 5th grader took some cold medicine to school (throat spray)... he figured it was for colds and he had one... go figure.
well, he took it down to the school nurse and says, 'should i try this?'

She says, ah, let's ask your dad first.
I know in some districts he'd be suspended... he and i did have some good communication over the deal

I think that introducing criminal acts into the question is a different issue. If the rules call for automatic suspension then that is what they should get.
The problem is that many rules are unconstitutional and schools face a court challenge. Punishment should reflect the seriousness of the act and the enforceability of the punishment.
A college prof cheated investors out of 66 million. He got a life sentance. He is appealing based on other ponzi scheme sentences. He felt unfairly punished. That is what society is teaching everyone.

Midlo I agree .

Politics is very much a, "Monkey see, Monkey do", profession. Politicians, and that includes school boards, are the worlds greatest mimics, often without regard to right or wrong. As an example, Chicago put up red light cameras. After all the surrounding towns saw that they could get away with it without too much public squawking, they began proliferating like ***** bunnies.

School districts began the political land grab of claiming the rights to be the administrators, overseers, judge and jury of juvenile judicial system. Once one school district did it, along came the "no child left behind" legislation and the floodgates opened.

My school board may be great school board members, but they have the common sense of a cocker spaniel (no offense to cocker spaniels). The whole "let's make a broad sweeping policy" issue is really nothing more than cowardice on the part of administrators. They get paid a lot of money to make hard decisions, and blanket policies take those decisions out of their hands. If that's the case, why are they making the big bucks if policies dictate their actions?

If you talked with most juvy cops and psychologists, they'd tell you that the exclusion policy, one where the common offense gets a kid tossed, is the worst policy around. It discards the kid and gives up on him. And like Midlo said...for what? Doing what everyone else is doing and then decrying it as the breakdown of morals and ethics within our society (and probably exactly what we were doing at their age).

I am with t-s, don't change rules midstream to fit someones reduced punishment, but todays rules are absurd and put together by people posing as puritans.

Intolerance is the cornerstone of a small mind.

ABSURD POLICY EXAMPLE...

Last week a kid was ineligible for Varsity Football. His crime? In his graphics design class, the computer file he had his work on corrupted and no one could open it. The teacher gave him an F. The teacher admitted that this kid, always a good kid and good student, had been seen working everyday on his project diligently, but without being able to open the file, the teacher said he had no choice but to give the kid an F.

NOW THE ABSURD PART...

Because of policies in place, no administrator, Principle or Dean, could interject and do the right thing and change that kids grade. Any teacher can do anything they want, for any reason, and no administrator can step in and correct it.

I understand that such a policy is there to protect against a chance of corruption so Johnny Touchdown can't surreptitiously become a star student, but why are we legislating for the probability of corrupt administrators? Isn't it far more likely that the administrator needs some room to be able to actually....administrate?

Why are we paying these guys the large dollars if policies make all their decisions for them?

Agree with Midlo and CPLZ 100%. However, without knowing the details, it looks at first glance like the punishment in the case TR has brought up was not completely out of line.

I disagree very much with 3 strikes rules and mandatory punishments without recourse to common sense. There are at times special circumstances. Sometimes they should result in leniency, sometimes they should result in the death penalty.

quote:

NOW THE ABSURD PART...

Because of policies in place, no administrator, Principle or Dean, could interject and do the right thing and change that kids grade. Any teacher can do anything they want, for any reason, and no administrator can step in and correct it.

Just to reassure everyone that it isn't the same everywhere...

This week our QB was declared ineligible because he had a '0' in one class when grades were posted. He had a '0' because the class has only a midterm and final to determine a grade. Since the midterm hasn't happened he has no points in the class and the computer registers that as an 'F'. The AD and principal took a look, fixed it, and he's playing tonight...

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The proliferation of "zero-tolerance" rules for such things as "drugs' and "weapons" have morphed into what are best described as "zero-common-sense" rules by school bureaucrats.

Johnny gets expelled for a nail clipper, or Betsy for her Midol. In Oregon we had two 12 year old boys who were literally charged with criminal sexual assault for slapping the butts of girls in the school. The school admin called in the police because of the school's zero-common-sense policies.

With these stupid rules, it becomes more and more common to back off consequences of some rules because in so many cases the consequences are way out of line.

So were the consequences way out of line with the case TR describes? Harsh, yes. But out of line in the "zero-common-sense" manner of speaking? I don't think so.

But the environment in which there are so many ridiculously overboard penalties for things that are no big deal causes a general disdain and suspicion of all disciplinary rules.

Our son's HS has about the most firm, no-nonsense 'strike-1 and you're out' drug and alchohol policies around. I like it.

It has resulted in high-potential athletes and academic students losing their enrollment. (Its a private school). I support it.

The thing my wife and I have noticed about this policy is there is no doubt about what will happen if you break the rules. None. I have known parents whose kids suffered the consequences, and they have voiced no objection to me...in fact some still sent their other kids to this school.

Comparing this to the HS our older kids attended where the rules were there but enforcement was wishy-washy...we believe this is the better approach. Does it cut down on abuse? I guess I don't have access to any data to suggest it does or does not. So I don't know. But I still like it.

TRhit doesn't like it when people change the topic of his threads.

The original thought here was that four UNDERAGE players were caught consuming alcohol.

While they may not be intentional, many responses here are trying to equate this punishment with students taking Midol and clipping their nails.

I will never understand why this country glorifies alcohol and works so hard to justify these illegal and downright dangerous activities because "everyone else is doing it."

Teenagers consuming alcohol cannot be tolerated under any circumstances and the punishment should be severe and immediate.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
TRhit doesn't like it when people change the topic of his threads.

TRhit also doesn't like people putting words in his mouth. Sorry TR!!!!

The reason why this country glorifies drinking is MONEY, there is some much money from alcohol and tobacco it will never go away or really be called dangerous. Money talks.

I'm not saying these particular kids were overly punished. TR didn't give the details of their offense, so I can't say one way or the other.

I'm just saying that I've seen way too many cases of overly officious school administrators, and rules that make absolutely no sense, to just give a blanket endorsement to heavy punishments. I want to know the facts first.

I don't think a yearlong suspension would be too harsh for illegal possession, abuse or distribution of alcohol or controlled substances, plus the criminal justice system I would presume would also get involved.

I just don't like it when someone with a Sudafed in their pocket, that they've brought with them to try to get through a day with a cold, is treated like a meth dealer. I couldn't care less what rules were in place in advance. Those kinds of rules deserve to be fought, protested, and hopefully, defeated.

quote:

What are we teaching kids? We are teaching them that if you know the right people and you pull the right strings, there will be no consequences for their behavior.

Haven't people known this for years?

quote:

he problem that is very real is that the school systems have adopted some unbelievably overboard punishments for common offenses. The result is that for things pretty much everyone is doing, if you're the unlucky soul who gets caught, you get crucified, while all the other hypocrites escape unscathed.

It's called zero tolerance. It's for school administrations who have zero balls to make decisions and stand behind them.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:

I don't think a yearlong suspension would be too harsh for illegal possession, abuse or distribution of alcohol or controlled substances, plus the criminal justice system I would presume would also get involved.

If it happens on school property or at a school event, then school authority should prevail.

If it happens outside and unrelated to school, it should be the criminal justice systems authority and the school should have no opinion. We are blurring the lines of responsibility.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
It's called zero tolerance. It's for school administrations who have zero balls to make decisions and stand behind them.

Right on the money.

It's why school administrators should have no business on what happens outside the school system. With all their education, they can't even make common-sense decisions within the boundaries of the schools with their so-called Zero Tolerance. The last thing you want is them setting policy on what goes on outside the school.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
P.S.

If you don't believe me, wait until your daughter gets caught with a Midol in her backpack.

My son was nearly thrown out of school for being in a bathroom stall when a drug deal happened. The teacher rounded up every kid in the bathroom and busted them all. Zero tolerance. Once we posted bail I had an attorney all over the superintendent. The charges were dropped.

Last year a kid in our high school was busted and suspended because he told a kid who sells pot. The kids know. When the purchaser got busted he ratted out the kid who told him who sells.

When my daughter was in high school she told me give her the money and an hour and she could have possession of guns and drugs. Not that she would. But she knew how to get it done. Before anyone judges the community there are four country clubs within the district boundaries.

Ok, here's why some rules are so confusing.

When son was a frosh in college (first few weeks he was on campus), he got caught walking from one apartment to his with a beer in his pocket by an RA. The punishment was, $50 fine (charged to us on his next semester statement, 500 word essay and sit in on a class for alcohol abuse. He did not get in trouble with the coach because it happened on his own time. As strict as he is, he is also one of those who believes that sometimes kids have to learn lessons on their own and in this case the breaking of the rules and punishment were dealt with by the administration. He got in trouble with us because we got a letter explaining what he had done (couldn't hide it), and since we signed the alcohol awareness letters, they contacted us through the mail. We told son, if it ever happens again, he loses his transportation. Gonna be honest here, it was our second child and we were once in college, first time on our own, ourselves.

The rule is, no open container on campus. However, after attending a football weekend, I saw open containers everywhere at tailgate parties. No one seemed to notice that this was still considered on campus? I was confused, and I can understand why rules get broken, they can confuse those that break them.

If the rule is no open container on campus, why do football saturdays have different rules? This falls under, IMO, what JB might consider wishy washy.

I have no problem with rules and punishment when broken, but make clear cut ones that make sense and are appropriate.

If I were a judge I would be a Hanging Judge. Our society needs to punish the crimes that deserve it. The prisons would have a lot less murders and rapists under my rule.
I also agree with Midlo on drugs etc that contravene the law. If it was a simple offense of drinking I would not boot them out of school for a year. If it involved violence and disturbing the peace, driving while drunk etc the year long suspension might be appropriate and even expulsion from the school. Fortunately I have never had to deal with this. My kids told me drugs were rampant at school.
A parents job is to try and prepare your kids for these issues. Some kids regardless of parents still go down the wrong path.
I have a brother that I am close to. He is very successful and spoiled his son and daughter. His son is 32 and a drug addict. He has been through a lot. His son stole from him to get drugs and the son has been beat up and in and out of jail.
The daughter was a bad actor as well but straightened herself out Believe it or not she is a psychologist working for a long term prison facility.

quote:

The last thing you want is them setting policy on what goes on outside the school.

One night when my son was twelve I was scolding him over his behavior. When he tried to walk way I grabbed him by his tee shirt. He twisted to get out of the shirt. It made a mark on his neck. The next day at school a teacher asked him about the mark. He told her it was nothing. She took him to the principal's office anyway. He was badgered until he admitted he tried to twist out of his shirt when I grabbed him.

The principal called the police. I was charged with child abuse. I moved out of the house for two weeks rather than have my son placed in foster care until social services could interview me to determine if I was a fit parent. Social services interviewed me for two hours. They did a thorough examination of the house. It was determined I was a fit father providing a fit home for my son. The charges were dropped. I was told to never touch my son again.

Despite the charges being dropped, by law they had to be on my record for a year when I paid to file for a court hearing to have the charges that never happened removed from my record. I was also informed despite the charges being dropped, if it happened again I would be in serious trouble. How can something that never happened, happen again?

I then went to my son's football coach and asked him to document every scratch, cut, bump or bruise on my son so I don't get in trouble. I knew it was an absurd request. But I had to make a point. I had to protect myself.

If you all remember last year, a UF player was arrested for drunk driving. He was immediately let go by the AD (not the head coach). Since some incidents occured under the previous HC, the players were warned by the AD of the consequences.

The parents presented their case to the NCAA, the player was not yet found guilty in a court of law, therefore the player was reinstated on the team.

So often times when you set rules, the don't pan out anyway, since in our country you are innocent until proven guilty, sometimes you have to be careful when making rules that won't stick.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

The last thing you want is them setting policy on what goes on outside the school.

One night when my son was twelve I was scolding him over his behavior. When he tried to walk way I grabbed him by his tee shirt. He twisted to get out of the shirt. It made a mark on his neck. The next day at school a teacher asked him about the mark. He told her it was nothing. She took him to the principal's office anyway. He was badgered until he admitted he tried to twist out of his shirt when I grabbed him.

The principal called the police. I was charged with child abuse. I moved out of the house for two weeks rather than have my son placed in foster care until social services could interview me to determine if I was a fit parent. Social services interviewed me for two hours. They did a thorough examination of the house. It was determined I was a fit father providing a fit home for my son. The charges were dropped. I was told to never touch my son again.

Despite the charges being dropped, by law they had to be on my record for a year when I paid to file for a court hearing to have the charges that never happened removed from my record. I was also informed despite the charges being dropped, if it happened again I would be in serious trouble. How can something that never happened, happen again?

I then went to my son's football coach and asked him to document every scratch, cut, bump or bruise on my son so I don't get in trouble. I knew it was an absurd request. But I had to make a point. I had to protect myself.

I am sure you all are aware of the parents that took innocent pictures to Wal Mart to be developed and ended up having their kids removed from the home, mom lost her teaching job and were registered as *** offenders. When they went before the judge, he threw it out. Yet a convicted *** offender harbors a child in his home for 18 years and no one goes inside to look around upon parole visits.

IMO, our society is a bit screwed up, as in the case of what happened to RJM, they keep trying to punish the wrong people.

Thats brutal.
My youngest daughter is very high stung and artistic. She got very stressed over exams even though she was an honors student. One prof suggested she see a psychologist to see if she could get something to help her.
The Psychologist started abusing he and suggested she had been molested by her father (ME) She lit into him and walked out of his office.
My wife didn't tell me until a few years later because she knew I would molest him.
Some of these guys need more help than their patients.

Geez I just remembered I have a couple nude pictures of my granddaughter being born. I had better get rid of them.

There was an "inspirational" article in our local paper this am about a HS FB player that was kicked off the FB team last season due to alcohol. They had a zero tolerance policy and he couldn't play the last 2 games of the season or any post season games.

He's back this year, fired up, and seems to have learned a lesson. If the coaches let it slide he wouldn't have learned a thing about breaking rules. He realized how much he also let his teammates down.

Was he suspended from school?

[ Yet a convicted *** offender harbors a child in his home for 18 years and no one goes inside to look around upon parole visits.[/quote]

Isnt that the irony of all ironies.

RJM wow thats horrible.