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From the scenario described it appears the "punishment did not fit the crime" and so the "punishment" was modified. Wether it was an established rule or not someone in power felt that it needed to be modified....

It appears the real issue and concern by the initial poster is the fact that the parents of the individual's approached the authorities and requested a review of the "punishment". The thread is titled PARENT POWER...

Come on, I don't know of any parent that wouldn't come to the aid of their child who's made a mistake, especially if they beleive the punishment is unjust....... If your kids convicted of murder don't you fight for life versus the chair? You don't condone the act by requesting life.... I know it's an exuberant exxageration as a comparison, but it just seems that the topic is about parents who approach the authorities....

Do we need rules - OF COURSE, but the punishment for breaking rules will always be debated in terms of severity...

I do not believe in underage drinking at all and agree there should be a punishment, which in my opinion should always factor in the individual's prior history. There are a lot of great kids that happen to fall into bad situations and therefore make bad decisions... Should a "good kid" who's never set foot in the principles office in 11 years of school receive the same punishment as the kid who's been charged with the offense routinely in the past? There's only one without sin and he's never posted on the HSBBW - at least not under his real name - Smile

I get torn over some of this because I do embrace rules, but I also truly beleive that the child's overall character should be considered and I hate to see a first time, gifted athlete's future (or gifted student or gifted cheerleader or gifted whatever)end because they drank a beer.... PLEASE don't misinterupt this, I DO NOT CONDONE UNDERAGE DRINKING, in fact I DO NOT drink and unfortuantley in my business, I routinely see the consequences and devastation created by drinking and driving...

Part of the problem with rules are "blanket" puninshments....

Where are the parents? Now there's a good question.... IMO the bottom line is that parents do not spend enough time in the lives of their children.... But even with GREAT parents, they'll still make poor decisions at times...

Okay, I'm ready to get dunked........ Big Grin
Last edited by Flying Dutchman
maybe a tad off topic but...i have said this before, many times. it's easy to say where are the parents? you can't be with them all the time, though you try to be that voice over their shoulder.

every kid that does bad things doesn't have bad parents, no more than every kid that goes to harvard has smart parents.

there is no instruction manual with kids, even a mattress has one. you teach your childeren right from wrong(and they do know when their wrong). yet when they leave your house,the reality is you never know.
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Why do we have rules at all? Seems to me the inmates are running the prison


some background. I coached for 25 years and have been teaching for 38. Lets just say I have been around the block. as my time progressed I have seen many things both good and bad. What I can surmise is that society has slowly gone from right wrong to situational ethics. If somebody does something wrong lets find out why and then decide. this in cases of crime does not help the victim.

As far as the inmates( I assume you refer to parents) there is some validity to that. If a decision is made and they hear the word no tehy will just keep going to they hear yes. For instance a coach says no I will go to AD if he says no I will go to principal etc etc. Cause enough stink you might hear yes. they try to wear you down.

some parents feel that discipline is good> but when something happens it is good for the other kid and not theirs.

I know coaches who were not backed up by those higher in command. they left. yet i also know those that were. to be honest for a principal or AD to stick to their guns is commendable but as the years pass it is becoming more difficult. There are so many forces going on who knows who who donated what etc etc.

then you hear the words I am getting a lawyer then what appears many times as a simple decision on the part of a school becomes one that now is open to discussion and interpretation.

yes i have been around the block. Now that same block has a lot of pot holes.
Here is what I don't understand and maybe you guys can help me understand this.

When someone (parent usually) threatens to sue because they don't get their way - why do the powers that be get so scared they give in or give a weak compromise?

I do realize that anytime a school system is in the court system is bad for public image / relations but if you are in the right then it shouldn't matter. Plus just because someone says "I'm going to sue" doesn't mean they are right or just or will win. If you are so afraid your policies won't hold up in court then change them so that they will.

It seems the phrase "I'm going to sue" have become the most powerful words in the English language.
There is very little public confidence in public officials, and with good reason. Public school officials have a notoriously poor reputation for their application of discipline / punishment, again for very good reason. the public knows school officials are generally clueless. They usually call the cops for nothing and don't call them when laws have obviously been broken.

In my opinion, the nuts have run the asylum for a long time.
Parents read the rules and most think "sounds good" until their child is the one who breaks them and faces the consequences. Some parents accept that their child will be punished - others simply will not. And as Will said - they do NOT give up. They will climb the complaint ladder until they finally find someone who will give them the answer they want.

And the role of supers, principals and ADs has changed - no longer are they the decision makers. They are now in charge of squelching the complaints. Ask any teacher if they have been told to change a classroom policy because of a parental complaint - if they've been teaching long enough, most will tell you that they have. School boards do not want to hear the complaints either, so if you are one of the wheel greasers and the wheel is still squeaking, guess what? Suddenly YOU are the problem and you'll be gone. Nobody wants to lose their job.

CPLZ makes a good point about the role of the school vs the role of the courts - who should be meting out justice in these situations? Reasonable people can disagree. But the most important part - parents, read the agreements that you and your kids are signing and if you don't like the amount of power that's being handed to your kid's coach, AD or administration, do something about it BEFORE it becomes an issue. Changing the rules after the fact is a sign of weakness and leads to more problems than you had when you made the rules in the first place.
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why do the powers that be get so scared they give in or give a weak compromise?


when a person can win thousands and thousands for spilling a cup of hot coffee on themselves and then claim they did not know the coffee was hot kind of tells you something.

many times common sense takes a vacation when dealing with the legal system and that is in the back of the minds of "the powers to be"
Could it be that the people making the rules have no common sense? And it could it also be that in many cases those charged with enforceing the rules have no common sense as well?

When I was in law enforcement all of us were charged with enforceing the laws. But not all of us were capable of using common sense in doing this. There are the writting laws and then there is the spirit of the law itself. If every officer enforced every single law as it is written and never used any common sense in enforceing them would anyone not have a police record?

One of the problems is when you stop someone at 2 in the morning for a traffic violation its just you and the citizen. You have the opportunity to use some common sense and take the totality of the circumstances to make a good sound common sense decision. When its all said and done its just between you and the person your dealing with. In these situations at schools that it not the case many times. Johnny got three days for nail clippers I want to know why Billy didnt?

IMO you have to give those charged with making these decisions some ability to use common sense. And then you have to hope you have people with some common sense in these posistions.

All too often its just too easy to say "The rules are the rules." At this point common sense and the ability to use it is thrown out the window. For every speeder I ever stopped I bet 7 out of 10 never got a ticket. The Doctor trying to get to work because he had an emergency at the hospital. A stiff warning and an escort was all that was needed. The mom rushing to the school because her toddler was hurt at school. The 17 year old with the open bottle of alcohol in the car. No prior record. Very repectable kid when stopped. Scared to death. Taking the keys. Parking the car. Taking him home to mom and dad.

Or I guess you could just say the law is the law. Everyone gets a ticket. Everyone goes to jail. Hey the law is the law.

Its funny though. These same zero tolerance folks are the first to want and insist on tolerance when they or their kids are faced with these same issues. But not when its someone else.
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Originally posted by Coach_May:
Or I guess you could just say the law is the law. Everyone gets a ticket. Everyone goes to jail. Hey the law is the law.


Unfortunately, that's the case more and more each day.

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
For instance a coach says no I will go to AD if he says no I will go to principal etc etc. Cause enough stink you might hear yes. they try to wear you down.


Will,
Your post was even handed and well presented, I'm not trying to pick on your theme. This thought though, is where the situation turns adversarial instead of procedural. That's a chain of command, and that's how it is supposed to work. If someone at the school is in error, teacher, janitor, coach, I talk to that person. If it remains unresolved, the next proper move is to speak with that persons supervisor, etc.

You claim the, "wear you down" tactic is being employed, and in many cases, I'm sure you're correct. But your ignoring the, "circle your wagons and everybody CYA" , tactic that parents come up against. One of the reasons the matter keeps getting kicked higher upstairs, is that rather than address the issue reasonably, the parent receives some blanket reason like, "it's for the kids".

Hey, administrators get a pretty good buck and part of the responsibility that goes with that, is taking some heat for doing the right things. If you do the right things, there will be enough people to support you to weather it. The problem is, that administrators now try to keep their pond from having any ripples. One prime way of doing that is to completely dismiss any parental issue out of hand and then ignore the person until they go away. Not a great management tactic, but very much in vogue these days at schools.

This is one of the main reasons I oppose schools being the community juvenile judiciary, they are no longer accountable to anyone.
Last edited by CPLZ
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
Please post the facts RJM I want to hear how they were negligent.
It can't be summed up in a few sentences. Read the case. The only thing I'll say (and I'll stop here) is there had been thousands of complaints to McDonalds of their coffee being too hot. This was far from the first person getting burned by McDonald's coffee. It was not the first award either. It was the most public award.
Last edited by RJM
Zero tolerance in the schools is for one very simple reason. Money. Schools can't afford to fight lawsuits. That is the reason they get rid of mascots. It is cheaper to change a uniform than fight it in court.

Zero tolerance is set up to make the rules the same for everyone. You have no basis for a lawsuit if the penalty is the same for everyone. Schools cannot afford to go to court. It isn't about common sense. It is about $$$$. My favorite story was when my Dad was a Superintendant. They had to suspend a kindergarten student for 3 days for bringing a screw driver to school. Why did he bring it?

The teacher was trying to fix something the day before, She said she wished she had a screwdriver so that she could fix it. The cute little 5 year old, being a cute and helpful little 5 year old, brought one the next day for his teacher. He showed it to some of his friends before school because he was proud that he was helping his teacher and that was when he was caught with it.

They could not make an exception. It would be used against them the next time an older student brought a knife, weapon or whatever and they tried to suspend him.

Zero tolerance was brought on by parents and lawyers. We brought it on ourselves and it is here to stay.
The McDonald's coffee case is indeed an interesting story. We tend to hear only the Jay Leno version of events. In reality the restaurant had had several prior burn incidents, some involving small children, yet persisted in serving coffee at extraordinarily high temperatures that involved an unbelievable risk of severe burns. Partly to have a reputation for "hot coffee", partly to discourage those seeking free refills from getting cup after cup. There was evidence that the particular franchise was acting with McDonald's national's full knowledge and even encouragement.

The woman involved had third degree burns and needed skin grafts to her inner thighs. She was over 80 years old. In the end the judge reduced the jury's award anyway, and she ended up settling on appeal in order to see some money while she still lived. She got $200,000. Actually, that was BEFORE her lawyer fees and court costs.

If that's what you're supposed to expect when you buy coffee, then no one would ever buy coffee.

In this case, yes, rules were rules. The jury was right to enforce them.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
My junior year in HS me, another junior, and two seniors were caught on a tail gate of a truck out in a field with a 12 pack of beer. Our Football team rules were if caught with alcohol you would be suspended from the team for good. Well the head coach suspended us then the assistant coach who was also the principle removed the suspension. Instead of being kicked off the team we had to do 500 yards of bear crawl and 500 yards of gut busters every week for the rest of the season.

Now all 4 of us have college degrees. All 4 of us had those degrees paid for by football. None of the 4 of us would have attended college without the scholarship money and none of the 4 of us would have gotten scholarships if we were suspended. My wife and kids would have to agree that the original punishment for something stupid I did as a 16 year old kid would have been a little harsh. Especially since that decision would still be effecting my live now. Throwing a kid off a team should always be the last possible resort. There are plenty of ways to punish someone other than that. Besides the kids usually getting into trouble may be the ones that need the benefits of a team environment the most.

Oh and one more thing. It has been my experience in life that the parents that seem to be the most condescending and judgmental about other kids and those kids parents, usually don't have the angels they believe they have themselves.
Coach Scotty, well put.

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Instead of being kicked off the team we had to do 500 yards of bear crawl and 500 yards of gut busters every week for the rest of the season.


One of my favorite memories is of my son having to do 500 yards of barrel rolls for sneaking off campus during lunch period to go to Wendy's when he was in high school. The asst. principal saw him and another player driving away and when they returned from lunch they were sent directly to the baseball coach. Barrel rolls are basically lopsided somersaults and the boys were forced to do them while several members of the school administration and coaching staff stood on the sidelines and yelled out "hot and juicy!" repeatedly. After the boys puked about a dozen times, the coach felt confident that they would not sneak off campus again, and he was right!

The coach employed this method for many different types of offenses -- some way more serious than my son's transgression -- and it seemed quite effective in every situation.
Because of the various "situations" involving HS students I'm in favor of "set" penalties that are subject to a review board who can adjust the punishment if deemed necessary. My kids HS has this in place and the board is made up of coaches, faculty, and administration. Parents, police, students, and whoever else may have been involved can voice their opinions/concerns at the "hearing". The intent was that there was no "backdoor" negotiations and that all parties were on the same page.
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MidloDad, my engineering law professor told us that the MacDonald's was brewing at that temperature to save $$$-the hotter the water, the less coffee is needed to achieve the same strength coffee...


Since there seesm to be an interest, here is a summary of the case....

Know the Facts: The McDonalds Coffee Case
There is a lot of hype about the McDonalds scalding coffee case. No one is in favor of frivolous cases of outlandish results; however, it is important to understand some points that were not reported in most of the stories about the case. McDonalds coffee was not only hot, it was scalding - capable of almost instantaneous destruction of skin, flesh and muscle. Here is the whole story.

Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when she was severely burned by McDonalds coffee in February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that was served in a Styrofoam cup at the drive-through window of a local McDonalds.

After receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and stopped momentarily so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. (Critics of civil justice, who have pounced on this case, often charge that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was in motion when she spilled the coffee; neither is true.) Liebeck placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled into her lap.

The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridement treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds refused.

During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of this hazard.

McDonalds also said during discovery that, based on a consultant's advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees Fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.

Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

Plaintiff's expert, a scholar in thermodynamics as applied to human skin burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony showed that as the temperature decreases toward 155 degrees, the extent of the burn relative to that temperature decreases exponentially. Thus, if Liebecks spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.

McDonalds asserted that customers buy coffee on their way to work or home, intending to consume it there. However, the company's own research showed that customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while driving.

McDonalds also argued that consumers know coffee is hot and that its customers want it that way. The company admitted its customers were unaware that they could suffer third-degree burns from the coffee and that a statement on the side of the cup was not a "warning" but a "reminder" since the location of the writing would not warn customers of the hazard.

The jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages. This amount was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found Liebeck 20 percent at fault in the spill. The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonalds coffee sales.

Post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the local Albuquerque McDonalds had dropped to 158 degrees Fahrenheit.

The trial court subsequently reduced the punitive award to $480,000 -- or three times compensatory damages -- even though the judge called McDonalds' conduct reckless, callous and willful.

No one will ever know the final ending to this case.

The parties eventually entered into a secret settlement which has never been revealed to the public, despite the fact that this was a public case, litigated in public and subjected to extensive media reporting. Such secret settlements, after public trials, should not be condoned. Many courts in California have adopted policies against enforcement of secret settlements, which is a positive development for consumers and the public.
I have no idea at what temperature McDonald's is serving their coffee now. But it's still too hot. And they don't provide the wrap around holders places like 7/11 provide. When served it's hard to hold onto the cup. I usually have to let it sit in the console for ten minutes.
When school enforce rules rigidly with no consideration of child or circumstances it is a complete cop out from taking responsibility.

Really, Zachary brought a eating utensil to lunch. WHOA.....Crime there for sure.


Each child and case should be judged indepently and individually based on child, childs past, intent, use, etc.

It is not hard to make the call. No one wants to make the call.

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